Windows 10 Update Aggro

[SiliconWizard]

How can you brick a PC with windows 10 updates ?
Was you so mad you throw the thing out the real window ?

Ahah, yeah. You'd have to figure out what was meant exactly by "bricked".

If that means that Windows can't start properly anymore after some updates, yes it has apparently happened to some people. Not what I would call "bricked" though, but whatever. Those people will just have  a computer that is at least momentarily unusable to them.

Now if that means the computer can't even POST anymore (which is what I would call bricked), I seriously doubt that. Unless there was a serious heat management issue and some components fried (which could have then happened with any resource-intensive program), or the BIOS got spuriously reflashed (I doubt that as well, MS is not yet THAT sneaky!)

[james_s]

How can you brick a PC with windows 10 updates ?
Was you so mad you throw the thing out the real window ?

https://www.pcgamer.com/a-windows-10-bug-is-bricking-some-pcs-that-use-system-restore/

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/latest-update-bricked-my-pc-cant-revert-or-fix/63b9fa68-496a-4e6e-91a6-927043bf27e9

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/new-pc-bricked-by-windows-10-update-again-2nd-time/3e47da02-53b2-4a78-93a5-70ce58d070a0

https://www.techtimes.com/articles/227922/20180520/microsofts-latest-windows-10-update-bricks-some-pcs-how-to-roll-back-to-previous-version.htm

There are many dozens of similar threads and articles.

[james_s]

Ahah, yeah. You'd have to figure out what was meant exactly by "bricked".

If that means that Windows can't start properly anymore after some updates, yes it has apparently happened to some people. Not what I would call "bricked" though, but whatever. Those people will just have  a computer that is at least momentarily unusable to them.

Now if that means the computer can't even POST anymore (which is what I would call bricked), I seriously doubt that. Unless there was a serious heat management issue and some components fried (which could have then happened with any resource-intensive program), or the BIOS got spuriously reflashed (I doubt that as well, MS is not yet THAT sneaky!)

There is no difference whatsoever to the average consumer. If a normal person's computer is not fully functional it is "broken" and they are in a bind. Huge numbers of perfectly good computers get binned due to simple software problems that could be resolved by just reinstalling the OS. Most people do not have the skills or knowledge to do this though, if it doesn't work they have no idea how to fix it so the option is either pay somebody to fix it for them or just buy a new one. A PC that won't boot to a usable state is effectively bricked.

[rsjsouza]

Huge numbers of perfectly good computers get binned due to simple software problems that could be resolved by just reinstalling the OS. Most people do not have the skills or knowledge to do this though, if it doesn't work they have no idea how to fix it so the option is either pay somebody to fix it for them or just buy a new one.

Anecdotal story: A neighbour asked me to retrieve old photographs from three of her old computers, in exchange for me keeping the machines (two Pentium 4 and one Quad Core Q6600). When I asked why the computers were replaced, the answer was always the same: the computers were becoming "too old" to be usable for the regular internet browsing and occasional Word editing - all HDDs were filled a third of their full capacity, but their OSes were terribly slow due to numerous crap software. Long story short, the Quad Core is being used 24/7 in perfect capacity - as for the other two... Well, one was beyond economical repair (the processor was removed and all its pins are bent) and the other still works but is not terribly useful for me.

This happens way too often around me...

[james_s]

I've lost count of the number of PCs I've been given or offered, most of which had nothing wrong with the hardware. Numerous times I've wiped and reinstalled one for somebody who was on the verge of going out and buying a new one and they were amazed by the fact that it worked like new. It sounds silly to those of us who understand these things but most people think that computers physically wear out and become slow and unreliable like a car or other mechanical device, they barely understand the difference between hardware and software and to them a computer is just a mysterious box, if it isn't working right it's broken and they have no idea what to do.

I struggle to help my mother with her computer, she's very intelligent by most measures but she just doesn't "get it" when it comes to computers. I've tried and tried to explain it but she doesn't seem to grasp the difference between the internet and the web browser, or the GUI, the command line and her actual files. I remember I was fixing something a while back and she was completely confused as to why her files were showing up in the directory listing in the terminal window I was using when they were in the graphical folder on the desktop. People who grew up without computers and are not technical just don't understand what is going on inside them at all and if it isn't working due to a software issue that is indistinguishable from a hardware fault. Just like when their TV breaks, it is often assumed that it is going to be cheaper/better to throw it away and buy a new one than to hire somebody to repair it.

[westfw]

Why is everyone so hell bent on running pc's connected to the internet without updates?
Is it such a chore to reboot your computer once or twice a week?

• For a significant update, my laptops will be unusable ("Installing") or nearly unusable ("Checking for Updates", "Downloading" - which somehow seem to take 99% of a CPU and/or disk bandwidth) for SEVERAL HOURS.
• That's partly because I inherit various old laptops that are a bit iffy.  The daughter's old machine with the cracked touchscreen, the one sent to me from Afghanistan because one of the USB ports is completely trashed (in addition to being old.)  None of them were "high powered" when they started.   They get used as dedicated "burner" machines for specific tasks, like going to some "bring your own laptop" training class - "Where's the one with TI's IDE on it?"  They don't even get turned on "every week."  I need to remember to turn them on and let them upgrade something like 24hours before I actually need them, to get some upgrade (sometimes several upgrades) that is ... irrelevant.

So yes, it's a chore.

[soldar]

@ soldar: Out of habit I test a Linux distro first by using a bootable Live CD or DVD, or a 'Live' USB stick (if it installs on the usb without too much effort)  and after a few test sessions, restarts and verfying everything works, I'll install it  ..fingers crossed

It seems you missed the big picture. I had been running Linux Mint for almost three years with no problem.

Then Google Earth updated and would not work with the Linux video driver so, after much time wasted diagnosing the problem I resolved it by changing to the Nvidia driver. 

Then, after a couple months, I updated TeamViewer and it stopped working. It has taken months of investigation to determine the problem lies with the video driver. I have spent countless hours trying to fix things and have increased my knowledge but made things worse with the computer. I am exhausted with this and dedicate a few hours here and there but, as I say, made things worse. Now one of the video adapters doesn't show up in the BIOS which should not be affected at all by the OS. I hate that it that they push out the door insufficiently tested "upgrades" that are full of bugs and problems. I have presented the case in the TeamViewer forums but nobody seems to care. They may fix it in the next release... or they may not. More than likely new bugs will be introduced.

What I am being told is the NVIDIA, GeForce GT 730 video card does not play well with Linux. So NVidia, Teamviewer, Google Earth do not play well together or with Linux.

Sometimes I think the best solution to these things is to use explosives.

[madires]

And more fun with updates: KB4505903 (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-information/status-windows-10-1903):

Domain connected devices that use MIT Kerberos realms will not start up

BTW. look out for updated Intel RST drivers!

[firewalker]

Yesterday I was called to an architecture firm. All of their computer (except one) was unable to boot after an obligatory update install and reboot. The firm was using the same computers for every seat. They went full panic when (third party) tech support told them, the only solution is to reinstall windows.

Alexander.

[Jan Audio]

Aside from the increased system requirements,
if you can put a new hard-disk in the computer, it is still working and not bricked.

[rstofer]

What I am being told is the NVIDIA, GeForce GT 730 video card does not play well with Linux. So NVidia, Teamviewer, Google Earth do not play well together or with Linux.

Sometimes I think the best solution to these things is to use explosives.

Ultimately, you will ditch the Nvidia card.  I don't use my original Linux machine for much of anything so I have left the Nvidia card installed.  I'm pretty sure the box has Debian but it has been a couple of years since I played with it.

For Linux, you need to stick to hardware that is known to work with drivers supplied with the OS.  If the video card takes 3rd party drivers, you may have issues as the OS changes.

[HighPrecision]

Three months ago I was shocked by the first contact with Win10 on a tablet PC, I'm still using win7 on main PC, forced update was started keeping the PC unusable for over three hours with some problems to be resolved at reboot.

I don't accept that enforcement, after some research I've found a comment into a web article and tried the procedure, see the tenth comment by 'K Mac':
https://www.redmondpie.com/disable-turn-off-automatic-updates-in-windows-10-heres-how/comment-page-2/

Apparently I don't see any automatic update event after this procedure, but have noticed that win10 OEM Home version has recreated one of the files (wuauclt.exe), I've removed this file and created a new folder with the same name and extension to avoid the automatic system restore.

Since these modifications I haven't see any update activity, I'm still monitoring.

[james_s]

Aside from the increased system requirements,
if you can put a new hard-disk in the computer, it is still working and not bricked.

But most people can't put a new hard disk in their computer, they have no idea what the problem is, so from their perspective it is bricked. If the computer cannot boot itself up into a functional usable state without swapping or replacing any hardware then it is bricked.

[SiliconWizard]

There is no difference whatsoever to the average consumer. If a normal person's computer is not fully functional it is "broken" and they are in a bind.

Oh, I agree. That's why I said "Those people will just have a computer that is at least momentarily unusable to them."
I was just detailing things a bit to reply to all those that would react in a WTF? way when reading "bricked".

Losing data, which has also plagued an infamous Win10 update (don't remember which), was also pretty bad especially for all the users that were not computer-savvy.

[edy]

I just went through a major office upgrade from WinXP! Due to the need for specific Windows-only software that works on XP I was stuck in that environment for far too long. However it worked quickly and efficiently. However, to mitigate the vulnerable state we were in and plan to migrate to the latest version of our proprietary company software (which the newest version also runs on Win10) I decided first to do an upgrade of the OS while keeping to their old WinXP-era software running until such time as I then roll in their latest software. The plan being that once we are up and running the old WinXP software on the Win10 updated machines we will eventually move to the proprietary Win10-version of the company software in due time.

I burned Win10 64 bit and Win10 32 bit to 2 USB keys. All my machines are close to 10 years old but they all took 64 bit no problem. However I had to put 32 bit Win10 on a couple of machines that interfaced to a couple of legacy imaging-hardware devices that only had 32 bit drivers and I am not planning on shelling out $10k to replace the imaging hardware.  Also the companies that make those imaging devices went bye-bye and never updated the drivers so we are stuck with whatever was working back in WinXP days.

At home and pretty much everywhere else in my life I'm using Ubuntu Studio or some variant. It's one of the easiest to install but I agree most people just stare at you with a blank expression when you even mention anything beyond pressing the On button and loading up Google or Microsoft office. They have no clue. I too have received numerous laptops and PC's that needed nothing more than wiping out the old OS and putting new some light variant of Linux (Xfce or LXDE/LXQT desktop) and it breathed new life into it. A few machines just got a 128 GB SSD for $20 and now they fly like the wind!

Again I think we take for granted that people know as much as we do. Most people couldn't even make a bootable USB from an ISO if their life depended on it... so they don't even know how to even get Linux on their computer even to try. They wouldn't know how to get into BIOS settings and even change the boot to let them load up the USB stick. And today laptops make it hard to boot off anything other than Windows so you need to really be persistent in that BIOS to make things stick. Anyways, for those that know how to do this stuff it's awesome!!! But I'd say the VAST majority of computer users just buy a computer and want Windows on it and if something happens to it they are lost! It's not because Windows is so much superior... it's because it's there from the time they get their computer and it just manages itself in the background with updates and such and tries not to cause the average user too much grief.

It's also easier for most people just to shell out money and keep doing what they are used to than trying something new and the learning curve involved. For example, I've had no issues living with LibreOffice and many other open-source and cross-platform (including Linux) productivity software but most people wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. A friend of mine today with a new Win10 machine and Office pre-installed on it asked me today for help because Office keeps nagging him to purchase it to use it. I put LibreOffice on there and hope they will not be too lost until they figure it out... or they may just bite the bullet and purchase Office subscriptions for eternity. 

These days I'm not so engrained in one camp or the other, as it all depends on your use case. Bottom line is you better know as much as you can about whatever you use to take full advantage and be able to fix things when they go wrong.

[Halcyon]

Losing data, which has also plagued an infamous Win10 update (don't remember which), was also pretty bad especially for all the users that were not computer-savvy.

I personally know two people who installed updates within the last 6-12 months who have had data deleted/programs removed silently.

Apparently it's happening again.

[Whales]

It's nice to see a good mixture of opinions here. 

My experiences supporting Linux and Windows for family and work have taught me that all modern operating system environments are universally lacklustre in terms of reliability, predictability and general quality.

I put Linux on my niece's laptop a while back.  Initially it was great and I loaded her up with a lot of games, but soon she discovered that she really wanted to play Roblox (that's where her friends were).  Apparently Roblox used to work on Linux via Wine, but recent anti-cheat additions to the game now prevented this.  Additionally a pile of other desktop bugs started to slowly rear their heads like undead moose rising from mudplains, so we decided it was time for change.

So on went Win10.  Things seemed OK once the initial horrible-update-spiral ended.   At least for a few months .  Now the thing can't access SMB shares and certain programs flat out refuse to run on certain user accounts with random and vague error messages.  "What do you mean you can't find that DLL?  It's in the same folder as the exe, and it works when extracted and run as a different user!".

At work I have a slow battle with Ubuntu and systemd.  I'm an assistant at my uni, helping thesis students, PHDs and other researchers with their networking projects.  The constant changes and feature-creep in the RedHattiverse (read: most popular distros including Ubuntu) mean that new and exciting things break every month or so.  Systems no longer boot under certain conditions (no network on the second interface?  hang boot for 10 minutes!), DNS taking magic new paths (everyone now has a local DNS server!) and so forth.

It has been really sad to see the general quality of Windows updates declines over the past few years.  Things were much better in the days before MS fired their update testing teams.  It's also really sad to see how complex many modern Linux distros are.  Things were much better in the days before constantly-changing software was considered a 'good' thing.  I really wish we were in an era where people and business cared more about software testing and quality than changing appearances and activity.

[Jan Audio]

Next windows maybe charge you per month for update, sevice model.
Then u got rid off all updates in 1 time : dont pay the monthly update fee.

Would you pay for this crap ?

I wonder if that gets rid of telemetry and sedlauncher also.

[rstofer]

It's nice to see a good mixture of opinions here. 

My experiences supporting Linux and Windows for family and work have taught me that all modern operating system environments are universally lacklustre in terms of reliability, predictability and general quality.

Pretty much for giggles, I built a couple of the PiDP11/70 emulators.  But not necessarily for giggles...

One thing the system supports on 2.11BSD is Berkeley Sockets and I can control the world if I just had enough sockets.  There's a certain comfort in dealing with a system that doesn't have a GUI, has VI as an editor and supports C, Fortran and Pascal.  You can wrap your head around much of the system and there are some good books that describe the rest.

Recognizing that 2.11BSD is nearly identical to 4.3BSD and that 4.3 is the basis for FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc., this is a very nice place to play (and learn).

No, it doesn't have ANY of the modern features but it also isn't getting updated every couple of days.  Most of the source was last touched in the early '90s.

Back to Windows 10:  I don't seem to have the problems that others have with updates.  I did have some issue with release 1903 but I backed it out for a few months and when it reinstalled everything went fine.  I think I got an early release that wasn't intended for wide distribution.  Maybe a Developer's edition?  There a selection switch that deals with this and I probably messed up the setting.

It is usually possible to back out the various updates and also mark them to never reinstall.  That's why there are Restore Points.

[rsjsouza]

It has been really sad to see the general quality of Windows updates declines over the past few years.  Things were much better in the days before MS fired their update testing teams.  It's also really sad to see how complex many modern Linux distros are.  Things were much better in the days before constantly-changing software was considered a 'good' thing.

From what I remember, the constant updating had became part of the computing culture with the advent and quick spread of viruses. In DOS days, the piece of software that required constant updates was the antivirus - the OS was not touched at all (especially because everything ran in real-time mode). With the advent of internet, viruses and trojans started to spread quite quickly and therefore brought to light the various holes in Windows versions since '95, which had to be plugged much more constantly. Nowadays, the Windows Defender on my Windows 7 host is updated daily.

I really wish we were in an era where people and business cared more about software testing and quality than changing appearances and activity.

I kid you not; one of the main features of a minor update to a macOS version (IIRC it was High Sierra) was "added many new fun and diverse emojis". In the same update there were just two more featured additions (just to illustrate the level of importance of such thing).

I agree the current state of affairs is really sad. Lately I have been busy with a specific task of running Windows 3.11-era software - it just works. 

[james_s]

The frequent update thing is a result of the proliferation of high speed always-on internet access, ignoring the fact that there are a few million people out there still relying on dialup. The culture became ship it now because we can just fix it later, the problem being later rolls around and new features have gone in, new bugs have been introduced and many of the old ones still have not been fixed.

The visual changes and adding trivial gimmicks happens in products that are already mature. I mean office productivity software and desktop environments were mature 20 years ago, what more can we keep adding that is truly useful? People aren't going to pay for a new version that is the same with bug fixes that they perceive as something they should have gotten for free. It irritates me to no end but the explanation of why things are the way they are is simple enough.

[SiliconWizard]

what more can we keep adding that is truly useful?

Ugly flat stuff everywhere making it hard to figure out what is clickable and what isn't? Replacing menus with horrendous ribbon bars full of abstruse icons?

[rsjsouza]

what more can we keep adding that is truly useful?

Ugly flat stuff everywhere making it hard to figure out what is clickable and what isn't? Replacing menus with horrendous ribbon bars full of abstruse icons?

Or an Android 9.0 Pie update that makes all icons look like a Step2 toy?

[rstofer]

From what I remember, the constant updating had became part of the computing culture with the advent and quick spread of viruses. In DOS days, the piece of software that required constant updates was the antivirus - the OS was not touched at all (especially because everything ran in real-time mode).

I wouldn't know for sure but I'll bet that MSDOS was less than 10,000 lines of code.  Probably much less since it was derived from CP/M and that OS ran in a fairly small footprint in a 64k memory.  If this were written in C (and is wasn't), I wouldn't expect it to take more than a month or so because the interface and specifications are very well understood.  You could pretty much copy the CP/M documentation in terms of required functions and their interface.

Windows 10 has about 50,000,000 lines of code.  There is no way any individual can wrap their head around that much code.  And once you add people, you add confusion.  There are probably over 1,000,000 comments, most of which are out of date if they were ever correct in the first place.  Better to not have comments than to have erroneous comments.  I'm surprised the system works as well as it does considering the hundreds of programmers who have touched the code.

Remember:  If builders built buildings like programmers write code, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization!

[NorthGuy]

Windows 10 has about 50,000,000 lines of code.

If I were to install Windows 10, it's only a tiny tiny fraction of it I would be using. Most of it woldn't be used at all. And some of it would work against me.

Why not to have a lightweight OS with only abstracts hardware and let people install all other stuff as they please?