Author Topic: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!  (Read 2254 times)

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Offline GlennSprigg

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Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« on: July 11, 2021, 11:51:26 am »
I didn't even know it was OUT, but I'll have zero interest in it for quite a few years!!
Have found so many reports that M.S. have totally abandoned any hardware older than a year or two, and make
no apologies for that, citing the 'usual'. Below is one of numerous  thoughts...  :palm:
Diagonal of 1x1 square = Root-2. Ok.
Diagonal of 1x1x1 cube = Root-3 !!!  Beautiful !!
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2021, 12:30:44 pm »
Lets clear up some FUD here.

It's not actually out yet. It's a fairly early beta and Microsoft haven't set this in stone yet. Apparently the real situation is that all new OEM PCs will require TPM 2.0 which is fair enough. Older PCs and upgrades will probably not require this. But at this time NO ONE KNOWS THE FINAL STORY.

Why TPM 2.0? Well that's just the latest version and it is required for full disk encryption (bitlocker) and auth (hello) which is being turned on by default when you install the machine so that if it's stolen or burgled then you're fine - your credentials and crypto keys are stored in a write only secure enclave in the machine. I use that on my Windows machine anyway  :-//

Now why people are getting shitty about it I don't know. Intel and AMD ship with fTPM / PTT for about 4 years now that supports this so it's actually going to be fine for most users. If you're whining your cranky old 6+ year old shitbox isn't going to support it then meh, go and buy a refurb with a TPM 2.0 chip in it.

Why are they not using TPM 1.2. Well it uses flawed crypto which is known to be possible to weaken with enough resources so they are canning support for it. I don't blame them.

Full supported CPUs here: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors

Oh and another thing, if you have a desktop PC there's probably a TPM header on the board. Even if your CPU doesn't support TPM 2.0 you may be able to get a TPM module for it anyway!!! I've got an unsupported i5-6400 here which has a TPM 2.0 module installed that windows 11 will work on...

As always it's sensationalist bollocks on YouTube to get clicks.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2021, 12:35:35 pm by bd139 »
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2021, 04:46:06 pm »
Oh and another thing, if you have a desktop PC there's probably a TPM header on the board. Even if your CPU doesn't support TPM 2.0 you may be able to get a TPM module for it anyway!!!

Yeah, my motherboard has that.
But keep dreaming if you think you can get any TPM 2.0 module at the moment. At least at a reasonable price. They have become basically unobtainium, with a few being sold here and there for $200 or $300 (normal price is 1/10 that.)

 

Offline wraper

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2021, 04:56:35 pm »
Oh and another thing, if you have a desktop PC there's probably a TPM header on the board. Even if your CPU doesn't support TPM 2.0 you may be able to get a TPM module for it anyway!!!

Yeah, my motherboard has that.
But keep dreaming if you think you can get any TPM 2.0 module at the moment. At least at a reasonable price. They have become basically unobtainium, with a few being sold here and there for $200 or $300 (normal price is 1/10 that.)
They are expensive now only because scalpers depleted existing stock, and there are idiots who are ready to pay this much because of fear they won't get one. By the time win 11 comes out, it will normalize.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2021, 04:56:56 pm »
Yeah they have been emptied and are being scalped. Normal at the moment. Slightly annoyed I didn’t think of it  :-DD

Most computers since 2017 or so have PTT fTPM options in bios you can turn on though so you don’t need that anyway :palm:.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2021, 04:58:57 pm »
I won't be surprised if scalpers end up with tons of modules they are unable to sell.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2021, 05:04:57 pm »
We can hope  :-DD
 

Offline Isamun

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2021, 05:24:44 pm »
I suggest we await windows 12, as is tradition xD
 
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Online TimFox

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2021, 05:46:40 pm »
It's too bad that the tradition was corrupted by going from 8 to 10, ignoring 9.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2021, 06:18:50 pm »
Yeah they have been emptied and are being scalped. Normal at the moment. Slightly annoyed I didn’t think of it  :-DD

Yeah. As soon as the new hardware requirements for Win 11 went "viral", especially the TPM 2.0 thing, you knew that would happen.

Most computers since 2017 or so have PTT fTPM options in bios you can turn on though so you don’t need that anyway :palm:.

There are still a lot of computers in use today that do not have a TMP 2.0 module and that are perfectly capable otherwise.

Of course by the time MS ships Win 11, they may relax the hardware requirements, in particular for the non-OEM licenses.
But I don't doubt those "scalpers" will have sold a number of modules nonetheless. Now you'd have to want Win 11 really bad to shell out $200+ just to be able to run it, for something that will otherwise not improve performance whatsoever, and may just make your system a bit more secure. But, if you have a powerful config, that's still less than what you'd have to spend to upgrade it for supported hardware. As I said in another thread, hardware performance hasn't improved all that much in recent years. If you have a powerful config from 5 years ago, chances are it won't have TPM 2.0, but otherwise upgrading it probably makes very little sense. And it the only reason was to be able to run Win 11... well. Yeah right. :-DD



 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2021, 06:35:10 pm »
I didn't even know it was OUT, but I'll have zero interest in it for quite a few years!!
Have found so many reports that M.S. have totally abandoned any hardware older than a year or two, and make
no apologies for that, citing the 'usual'. Below is one of numerous  thoughts...  :palm:

You may also want to look at https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/please-ms-just-go-to-hell/
Regards, Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Offline edpalmer42

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2021, 06:51:10 pm »
AFAIK, there are three hardware requirements that are causing a few issues and they're all driven by security requirements / upgrades.

1.  Secure boot - shouldn't really be an issue.  If your system can't support secure boot, you probably aren't planning on upgrading to Win 11.

2.  TPM 2.0 - has been widely discussed.

3.  Only CPUs on MS's list of supported CPUs will be able to install Win 11.  Apparently Win 11 uses virtualization to improve system security.  But the instructions they use are only available on CPUs that were manufactured in the last few years.

Since big tech believes that their users are so stupid they have to be protected from themselves, it's unlikely that MS will back down on either points 2 or 3.

Actually, their users are mostly that stupid.  :palm:

« Last Edit: July 11, 2021, 06:53:09 pm by edpalmer42 »
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2021, 06:57:34 pm »
Since big tech believes that their users are so stupid they have to be protected from themselves, it's unlikely that MS will back down on either points 2 or 3.

Actually, their users are mostly that stupid.  :palm:

Otherwise they shouldn't use windows in the first place...  >:D

Sorry, couldn't resist  8)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2021, 06:59:10 pm by Karel »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2021, 07:04:43 pm »
Actually some of us know what we're doing and rather want this.

The key thing is Virtualization Based Security. So in effect you're running the client OS as a guest on a type 1 hypervisor (HyperV). This virtualizes ALL hardware access at hardware level meaning escalation of code into protected/kernel memory is extremely difficult. Things like the IOMMU in later CPUs is required so you can't do DMA injection. Consider that the USB-C hole in the side of your PC these days has some PCI lanes in it and you start to wonder how much shit you're in when stuff plugged in can do DMA. Oh yes, you're fucked.

Now another evolutionary thing here as well is they're moving some of the security components of the OS into isolated containers within the hypervisor which means constrained access. That applies across applications.

So compare:

Linux: firefox process gets owned via JavaScript. Writes into ~/.profile and injects a sudo wrapper and wraps gksudo/sudo. Next time you sudo, the machine is owned entirely.

Windows: browser can't access the desktop container. Noped straight out.
 
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Offline RaymondMack

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2021, 07:49:49 pm »
Actually some of us know what we're doing and rather want this.

The key thing is Virtualization Based Security. So in effect you're running the client OS as a guest on a type 1 hypervisor (HyperV). This virtualizes ALL hardware access at hardware level meaning escalation of code into protected/kernel memory is extremely difficult. Things like the IOMMU in later CPUs is required so you can't do DMA injection. Consider that the USB-C hole in the side of your PC these days has some PCI lanes in it and you start to wonder how much shit you're in when stuff plugged in can do DMA. Oh yes, you're fucked.

Now another evolutionary thing here as well is they're moving some of the security components of the OS into isolated containers within the hypervisor which means constrained access. That applies across applications.

So compare:

Linux: firefox process gets owned via JavaScript. Writes into ~/.profile and injects a sudo wrapper and wraps gksudo/sudo. Next time you sudo, the machine is owned entirely.

Windows: browser can't access the desktop container. Noped straight out.

Qubes already does this--and well before Microsoft ever thought of it. It's also more secure than Windows 11. Just saying.

https://www.qubes-os.org/intro/

But it is nice that Microsoft is taking security more seriously and forcing PC makers to provide a minimum HW environment that it's possible to reliably implement. Otherwise low end PCs would still be using shit HW that doesn't support the more advanced virtual machine extensions. Though I blame Intel more for this than anyone, as they intentionally disable these features to stratify their offerings. Even if your CPU supports VT-x and VT-d, your motherboard may not! So it's not just the CPU that needs to be checked for the listed requirements, but also your chipset and bios. In a similar vein, Intel refused to offer AHCI for years on their lower end desktop chipsets that were essentially the only parts OEMs used. AMD/ATI chipsets, from what I recall, provided AHCI without any fuss.

Microsoft putting their foot down is, in my view, an attempt at avoid another Vista fiasco. Vista was a quantum leap over XP and had much higher resource requirements that turned people off because they were so used to upgrading crap PCs to the next OS. But even more frustrating, the minimum level of HW coming from the OEMs was too shitty to even run it well. In effect, the majority of PC HW was too weak to run it smoothly. This coupled with the change in user interface--that most people bemoan for each new Windows OS--caused it to be a flop. For a successful launch, MS needs to ensure that any PC running the new OS will actually meet a practical minimum of performance and feature set.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2021, 07:53:20 pm »
Yes Qubes does indeed do that but virtually no one uses it. Windows 10 does it too (Device and Credentials Guard) if you turn it on. Currently limited to enterprise SKUs at the moment. Windows 11 rolls it out to everyone which is the big news. Not sure how many nodes we have rolled out with this turned on but I had to turn it off to install Virtualbox  :-DD

Good points all around there though and totally agree.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2021, 08:13:32 pm »
Qubes is pretty interesting, but IMO way beyond what basic users need in terms of security.

I think one of the first things you learn when you study security is that users will always be the number one issue. So, good security is always a mix between hardware/software measures and user education.

If your ultimate goal is to design a system that can be fully secure even in the hands of the worst users possible, then you have to take measures so drastic that in the end, the machine will be in control. It can't be otherwise. Be content that you'll still be able to shut your computer off. Maybe.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2021, 08:19:02 pm »
Completely agree. That's why when everyone asks me what computer to buy, the answer is an iPad because it's the most difficult for even the biggest moron to fuck up which means it's not going to come back to me with all the blame for their own actions.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2021, 08:53:50 pm »
Yep.

Otherwise, take a look at this and see why MS implemented "native" Android apps support and why they are so eager with the mobile market:

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share

As you can see, the cross-over happened in 2017, and due to the projection of growth for the mobile market, that's exactly what MS has been working to avoid for over 10 years now. Since the beginning of 2021, Android is almost 10 points over Windows worldwide - of course due to a major increase of mobile devices.

Windows is still first on the desktop of course. But as far as numbers go, desktop use is declining. MS want their share, and they'll try anything to get there. So far, it has been more or less for the worst. We'll see...
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2021, 09:01:05 pm »
Perhaps if they hadn't buggered up the transition between Windows CE and NT on Windows Phone they might have had a chance  :palm:

Desktop use is indeed declining and they are realising that which is why nearly all their software works on other platforms now and the model they're going for is software first, desktop second and that's working out quite well. I've got a rather large stack of C# and SQL Server stuff running on Linux I look after at the moment. And it works.

The key repetitive failure of Microsoft is the inability to actually innovate the right solution the first time and have to change it later by shitcanning the whole thing and starting again, pissing off their userbase, ISVs and partners. They're finally getting there with their browser and typescript etc. VSCode is rather nice for example.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2021, 09:05:36 pm »
The key repetitive failure of Microsoft is the inability to actually innovate the right solution the first time and have to change it later by shitcanning the whole thing and starting again, pissing off their userbase, ISVs and partners.

Maybe the root cause is that they fundamentally have "no taste", as Steve Jobs once said. =)

Although their market share is still modest, Apple has succeeded rather well at this. iOS is pretty good as a mobile OS now, and MacOS is pretty good as a desktop OS.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2021, 09:07:44 pm »
Well it's not that they have no taste, it's that their internal culture is poisonous design by committee nonsense. I have been deeply involved with MS for about 25 years and spoken to fairly senior people over that time.

As for Apple, yes. I'm writing this on a MacBook wearing an Apple watch with an iPhone and an iPad next to me  :-DD. How the world has changed considering I used to be a director of an MS Gold Partner  :palm:
 

Online Benta

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2021, 12:22:16 am »
I look forward to Win 11...

My friends and I will have a field day installing it (sorry, field weekend, just installing Win 10 takes a full day).
Then we'll look at the apps list, trying to decide which of the third-class, third-party apps filling up our system are the lousiest.
The next will be: "who deletes all this manure the fastest!". Prizes are not fixed yet.

Then: a reboot.

Did this make the machine faster? (probably not, but it freed some disk space... not that that's a problem nowadays).

Next challenge: "can you get your Win 11 machine to boot in under five minutes?". Every ten seconds over means gulping down a Tequila shot.

The Win 11 test will probably end there due to drunken stupor...

 
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2021, 12:34:35 am »
Next challenge: "can you get your Win 11 machine to boot in under five minutes?". Every ten seconds over means gulping down a Tequila shot.

Wow, I haven't had to wait this long for a machine to boot since I had a 386 running DOS 6.22 and Windows for Workgroups 3.11. The limitation there was the speed of the CPU and hard disk drive. It was the case of, turn the machine on and go grab a beverage or prepare a snack, when you came back it was booted.

I do have the the problem of slow reboots at work (which is very common because Windows 10 glitches out pretty often, requiring entire system restarts). We use fairly powerful $13k+ HP Workstations and if I restart the machine, the stupid Windows spinny dots sit there for a good 5 or 6 minutes. Buggered if I know what it's doing. The hard disk indicator barely flashes.

It's no secret that I now use Linux at home and love it. Linux is not without it's headaches, particularly when you're first starting out, but if you have good hardware and persist with learning something new, it's much less painful than dealing with Microsoft's garbage. Ask me 10 years ago would I be swapping to Linux from Windows, I would have laughed at you.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Windows-11 ?? Forget it!!!
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2021, 06:56:04 am »
Linux is ok until they break it. Which happens vastly more often than Microsoft I find. I have a T495s Ryzen here for example which is on the Ubuntu officially supported hardware list. Since about three months ago the kernel dumps core when starting the desktop.

Bear in mind linux is actually really my job. I won’t touch it on the desktop. It’s fine in a VM but the moment you stick a desktop near it, there is a sharp descent into a cancerous mess.
 


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