Windows 7 vs Windows 10??

[Mr. Scram]

Nor do I. My point is simply that all the chicken littles screaming that the sky is falling when it comes to people running outdated operating systems at home are either misguided or in some cases on the payroll of companies that benefit from consumers always buying the latest and greatest. Consumer PCs are rarely hit by exploits in the OS, it's just not a big concern. Having everything up to date can give a false sense of security, it's still ultimately up to the user.

Servers and specific high value targets are where people exploit security bugs in the software.

The last statement is dangerous as it may give people a false sense of security. You hint at zero days and you're correct that those are generally reserved for high value targets. Unpatched systems are however vulnerable to published vulnerabilities that aren't worth much on the grey and black market on their own. Instead they get developed into easily usable software that less skilled criminals then employ and will happily use against low value targets. Vulnerabilities are practically used against regular users even if you haven't personally seen or noticed it. I do agree the user is a huge part but that user stands little chance if there's a hole in the fence the crooks knows about. Read the first link below how known vulnerabilities become commodity exploits.

The NCSC also has a section for individuals and families. The second of their top tips is to install updates as this reduces your vulnerability to attacks significantly. They don't have any commercial skin in the game and definitely know what they're talking about.

"Cyber criminals use weaknesses in software and apps to attack your devices and steal your identity. Software and app updates are designed to fix these weaknesses and installing them as soon as possible will keep your devices secure."

https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/understanding-vulnerabilities
https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/section/information-for/individuals-families

[Mr. Scram]

You still need a way to gain access to that system though such as if it's acting as a server.  Then yes you want to separate that off from the rest of the network as it will be a risky system - even if it's fully up to date.    All systems are "outdated".  In 10 years from now, Windows 10 will be considered outdated.  Whatever flaws are in it then, exist today too (well unless they were introduced by another update, which happens).   You don't want to rely on only being "up to date" for your security measures as it's a very fragile one.  Even if you keep up with updates 100% of the time the minute they come out, it just means that you stopped being vulnerable - you were vulnerable the entire time before the update came out.   It's best to block the vulnerabilities from being accessed in first place.

Installing patches greatly reduces your risk. There will always be zero days but those are less likely to be used against the general public. It's much easier to get a temporary foothold in a network than a permanent one. Malware will generally try to escalate its privileges and what it can therefore do and finding an unpatched machine to fully own in the network is ideal. An unpatched version of Windows 10 will be little better than an unpatched version of Windows 7 which is obviously now all of them. It's also not a matter of doing one thing and being absolutely safe. Security is about adding layers and closing holes and being as safe as possible. It's always a combination of measures. Having a sensible user and installing patches and only exposing to the network and internet what you must and various other measures.

[NorthGuy]

"Cyber criminals use weaknesses in software and apps to attack your devices and steal your identity."

Relinquishing the control of your computer to a third party is hardly a solution.

Even if you have full trust in Microsoft, any weakness in the system of automatic updates can give an attacker instant access to all the computers using such updates. Only a complete idiot may believe that, with the huge flow of updates fixing OS vulnerabilities weekly, the update system itself is somehow immune to any possible attack.

[SiliconWizard]

"Cyber criminals use weaknesses in software and apps to attack your devices and steal your identity."

Relinquishing the control of your computer to a third party is hardly a solution.

Certainly, but this is something many have a hard time grasping.

I may venture that it comes down to the fact that many prefer handling the responsibility to someone/something else, even it that means taking more risks. If anything goes wrong, they have someone else to blame, and it usually feels a lot more comfortable than having to blame oneself, regardless of the end result. 

[Mr. Scram]

Relinquishing the control of your computer to a third party is hardly a solution.

Even if you have full trust in Microsoft, any weakness in the system of automatic updates can give an attacker instant access to all the computers using such updates. Only a complete idiot may believe that, with the huge flow of updates fixing OS vulnerabilities weekly, the update system itself is somehow immune to any possible attack.

You're correct that update mechanisms are a vector and one that should be taken seriously considering the potential consequences. The risk is similar for Linux where you have to trust the repo. Even those that compile from code won't read all of it with the attention of an audit and you still have to trust your compiler and hardware manufacturers and others.

[Mr. Scram]

Certainly, but this is something many have a hard time grasping.

I may venture that it comes down to the fact that many prefer handling the responsibility to someone/something else, even it that means taking more risks. If anything goes wrong, they have someone else to blame, and it usually feels a lot more comfortable than having to blame oneself, regardless of the end result. 

Microsoft has switched to the new model exactly because too many people were running woefully outdated systems. While I don't agree with the current solution as Microsoft seems to focus on its own interests instead of just fixing the issues at hand I do recognize the problems they're trying to fix. It was a shitfest. Few people have the abilities and discipline to consistently ensure a proper patch level of their OS. The cavalier attitudes of some people in this thread underlines this.

[NorthGuy]

Few people have the abilities and discipline to consistently ensure a proper patch level of their OS.

Abilities have nothing to do with the freedom of choice. Microsoft could have offered their maintenance services to the people who wants them instead of forcing them upon all W10 users. They didn't. Now all the W10 users have to give up their freedom in exchange for Microsoft protection.

[Mr. Scram]

Abilities have nothing to do with the freedom of choice. Microsoft could have offered their maintenance services to the people who wants them instead of forcing them upon all W10 users. They didn't. Now all the W10 users have to give up their freedom in exchange for Microsoft protection.

People had freedom of choice and it was an utter clusterfuck. The cavalier attitude towards updates we see in this thread was a part of that. People have been terrible with the freedom of choice they had as it not just impacts them but also others. I'm not saying Microsoft's answer is the ideal solution as it blatantly isn't but that something had to be done was abundantly clear. Note that I'm also not saying all freedom of choice should be eliminated as an answer to ineptitude and inability. I'm fairly sure a more elegant solution is possible though it'd likely serve Microsoft's commercial interests less than their current one.

[Ranayna]

"To upgrade, or not to Upgrade"
That seems to be an age old question in IT 

Back in the days when Microsoft forced Windows 10 down the throat of it's users, while at the same time also pushing Telemetry, I faced a dilemma:

Upgrade regularly, while trying to filter out the unwanted crap? Risk having something slip by and wake up to a Windows 10 Desktop?
Or disable updates?

From my phrasing, you can deduce what my solution was. 

I disabled updates completely.

How I was able to justify that for me:
- I have nothing open inbound to my machine. It sits behind a NAT Router, with uPNP disabled and no port forwarding rules. So stuff like unsecure RDP never affected me.
- My network is small. The Win 7 box, a QNAP NAS, an iPhone, an iPad, a printer. Nothing reachable from the outside.
- Firefox as my default internet browser. With various privacy related Plugins. Also relatively "safe" browsing habits.
- Little installed software, except games (from known sellers, no cracks) and a couple of CAD applications, mostly open source.
- And finally: Not all that much personal information on my machine anyway. No online banking at all.

Until last week, I never noticed any issues at all. The machine was always very reliable
But I finally caved and upgraded that machine to Windows 10 (with a new boot drive), and will keep updating that.
One thing note here: as far as I know, with Windows 10 1909, Microsoft enabled the ability to postpone feature updates, including major upgrades, indefinitely, at least in the Enterprise Edition. So this seems to be a massively requested feature, and they caved in, at least somewhat.

[SiliconWizard]

Microsoft has switched to the new model exactly because too many people were running woefully outdated systems.

I'm so sure this is the main reason.
 

[NorthGuy]

So this seems to be a massively requested feature, and they caved in, at least somewhat.

LoL. Once the trust is gone, it's very hard to get it back.

[Mr. Scram]

I'm so sure this is the main reason.
 

It's definitely one of the main reasons, but obviously not the only one. If you've ever had to upgrade an older version of Windows through the update system you probably know it can crap out at random moments with often convoluted troubleshooting if at all possible. The new model seems to have fixed a lot of those problems but was obviously also used as an opportunity to introduce other elements most people rightfully aren't fond of.

[rdl]

Control over updates is good, but even with Windows 7 there's a lot of obfuscation ("Rollups") that make it difficult to get security updates only. Or has that changed? (haven't done an update in a long time).

The other major issue I have with 10 is the built in "Windows Apps", including Cortana and their browser. I require complete control over that garbage. I don't want to have to go through every one and set a bunch of stuff so that nothing constantly runs in the background and "shares" your data. I want to be able to erase every trace of them from the drive.

[Electro Detective]

8 pages in and it appears Windows 7 'upgraded' with a Windows 10 glary blue window skin and jiggly tiles may be the way to go 

Someone must have knocked one up by now 

Question for Win 10 user/pluggers and or Win 7 bashers:
Gamer advantages and security fear factory BS reasons aside 
just what 'vital' third party apps work on Win 10 but not Win 7,

and can life go on without those few non working apps, if any..? 

[Mr. Scram]

8 pages in and it appears Windows 7 'upgraded' with a Windows 10 glary blue window skin and jiggly tiles may be the way to go 

Someone must have knocked one up by now 

Question for Win 10 user/pluggers and or Win 7 bashers:
Gamer advantages and security fear factory BS reasons aside 
just what 'vital' third party apps work on Win 10 but not Win 7,

and can life go on without those few non working apps, if any..? 

I don't think application support is currently making a large difference. The end of Windows 7 support will inevitably mean developers no let longer develop for compatibility and a slow decline is to be expected, although I doubt it will become a practical issue soon. Drivers may become an issue sooner.

[beanflying]

8 pages in and it appears Windows 7 'upgraded' with a Windows 10 glary blue window skin and jiggly tiles may be the way to go 

Someone must have knocked one up by now 

Question for Win 10 user/pluggers and or Win 7 bashers:
Gamer advantages and security fear factory BS reasons aside 
just what 'vital' third party apps work on Win 10 but not Win 7,

and can life go on without those few non working apps, if any..? 

In my case Davinci Resolve and Fusion 360 (Windoze 8 still has support for a while but  is a dud). Most of my other day to day software would be fine on 7 but for the few $ if your hardware will support it then get it done.

To minimise big brother conspiracy issues Run through these https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEbaEyM-xt9m_3PLH6QOfbb2b79XRakZs and if you still have concerns then unplug put on your tinfoil hat and sit in the dark corner with your candles for light and heat 

[rdl]

While it might be possible to 100% prevent Microsoft from spying on you by way of Windows 10, the effort required looks to be monumental. If you can only get to 99% what go would that do?

I might try it just to see how hard it really is, but I think the better option is just don't store anything, don't do anything, and don't go anywhere on a Windows 10 machine that you would prefer no one else know about.

The only reason I might ever actually use Windows 10 would be to play a game that will not run on anything else. It would have to be an extremely good game for that to happen.

[SiliconWizard]

Control over updates is good, but even with Windows 7 there's a lot of obfuscation ("Rollups") that make it difficult to get security updates only. Or has that changed? (haven't done an update in a long time).

Rollup updates in Windows 7 started to appear after Windows 10 was released IIRC, and that was preparing the phasing out of Win7 IMO.

Before Win10, Windows 7 had separate updates for every KB item and you could select them on an individual basis.

[rdl]

Yes, that's correct. Back then you could pick and choose, easily avoiding the useless ones and those where Microsoft tried to sneak tracking and other spyware into older versions of Windows.

I used to scrutinize each and every one before installing. Funny thing is that it seemed like the majority of security updates were not actually for the OS but patches for some flaw in Internet Explorer.

[SiliconWizard]

Funny thing is that it seemed like the majority of security updates were not actually for the OS but patches for some flaw in Internet Explorer.

Ahah, correct. Not surprising though, as web browsers were and still are the easy way in for security exploits.

These days, this has kind of shifted towards .NET stuff. Heavy patches for .NET every month.

[Mr. Scram]

Yes, that's correct. Back then you could pick and choose, easily avoiding the useless ones and those where Microsoft tried to sneak tracking and other spyware into older versions of Windows.

I used to scrutinize each and every one before installing. Funny thing is that it seemed like the majority of security updates were not actually for the OS but patches for some flaw in Internet Explorer.

The many fragmented updates were a large part of the issues with the update system. The rollup model is a way of both fixing that and also having less configurations in the field. Both aren't entirely unreasonable either though I would personally have preferred to keep the granularity and have the update system redesigned to better handle the issues. I'm not the one writing or supporting it though. 

Not that it would have kept the spyware out of Windows 10. It's woven into Windows instead of tacked on through an update so the only recourse is to find a version which allows turning telemetry off and blocking the hell out of tracking domains.

[NorthGuy]

I think the idea with updates made the software much less secure. Now vendors don't test well because they always can update - who cares about bugs - just kick it out of the door as quickly as possible. Also, most existing software is over-bloated and over-developed. In such situation, it is almost impossible to ensure any reasonable level of security. I think a hacker with enough brain and enough perseverance can break into any computer.

For security you need lean, simple, and efficient OS which provides minimum services. If anyone wants any extra features, they can just install the software which does whatever they want. This would produce diversity and everyone would be happy. Actually, this is how it was in the beginning. Then, little by little, everything migrated to "develop for an idiot" concept, at a great loss for the rest of the world.

[nigelwright7557]

I'm a Windows guy and there is absolutely nothing wrong with Windows 10, it's not shit, you're just doing it wrong. ;-)

</sarcasm>

I have used Win 10 since it came out.
It was bit unstable to start with but is mostly ok now.
I have had to reinstall it a few times but usually because I broke Visual Studio.
I have a lot of valuable stuff on my PC so Win 7 no longer cuts it.

I sell pcb design software and you would be gobsmacked at the amount of messages I get asking if it runs on XP !!!

[NorthGuy]

... I get asking if it runs on XP !!!

Does it?

[nigelwright7557]

... I get asking if it runs on XP !!!

Does it?

PCBCAD51 yes.
PCBCAD360 anything after XP.
PCBCAD720 Win 7/10 only