Windows 7 vs Windows 10??

[Mr. Scram]

Let me be equally clear. While I still use Win7, that wasn't my point at all. The point is that you are using two words that are neither opposite or mutually exclusive.

Obsolete is not the opposite of supported. Supported products can also be obsolete.

And vice versa: Current is not the same thing as supported. There are plenty of modern products on the market that have absolutely no support -- caveat emptor!

It's exactly what Keysight calls it yet I've never seen anyone get upset about the 34401A being called obsolete, despite many people still using them and probably being useful for a long time to come. Though to be fair, the official term is indeed End of Life, which is a euphemism for "dead". That just sounds a bit more unpleasant, which is why I was trying to avoid either.

[nctnico]

I have used Win 10 since it came out.
It was a bit buggy and unstable to start with but is about 99.9% fine now.
I recently had a customer complain the software I sold him wouldnt run under Win 7 32 bit.
According to Microsoft it should.
So I installed Win 7/32 on my pc and indeed it doesnt even with SP1 and other prerequisites.
So I tried to install Visual Studio to find out where my code crashed out.
That didnt get past the installer before crashing out.
So gave up.

Too bad. Maybe an older version of VS still works. And isn't there some kind of stand-alone debugger? There may be other causes too. Some software crashes if you disable the file history on Windows for example. Perhaps it is just a matter of going through your code and verifying you are catching all NULL pointers you may get from system calls. Or you are allocating more then 2GB of memory.

[NorthGuy]

It's exactly what Keysight calls it yet I've never seen anyone get upset about the 34401A being called obsolete, despite many people still using them and probably being useful for a long time to come.

If some days Keysight moves to "Scope as a Service" business model, this won't make real scopes obsolete - people will still use them until they work. But this will make Keysight themselves obsolete very quickly - nobody will care whatever gibberish they say about not supporting real scopes any more.

[SiliconWizard]

No. As a software editor, you either support an OS or you don't, according to 1/ your customer base and 2/ your abilities. Given 7 still has a significant market share, wheras 8 and 8.1 don't, there is nothing else to consider here. As I said, all that matters is whether you want to lose customers or not. Everything else is wank.

Windows 7 is past End of Life. Anything else can be endlessly argued and debated and is indeed wank, though it does appear almost all relevant developers seem to follow suit.

That was not the debate here (at least not in my reply, relative to what nigelwright7557 decided, and which some found odd.)

Again, as a software editor, your only concern is whether the OSs you decide to support have a significant market share or not. Else you lose customers. Simple as that. And if you're willing to lose customers just to make a point ("I told you it was obsolete, dammit!"), that's your problem, but usually not a wise decision. You may decide this if you don't have the resources to keep supporting it. And here, it exactly looks like what nigelwright7557 did. And again if he had to choose between dropping 7 or 8/8.1, the market share figures make the decision pretty obvious IMHO.

Since Windows 7 still has between 20% and 25% (depending on the source) of market share among Windows users, it IS significant enough to decide, as a software editor, not to drop support for it.
And knowing many engineers, I'd even venture that this % is higher among engineers themselves, so if you sell software for engineers, well. That's definitely significant.

[Mr. Scram]

That was not the debate here (at least not in my reply, relative to what nigelwright7557 decided, and which some found odd.)

Again, as a software editor, your only concern is whether the OSs you decide to support have a significant market share or not. Else you lose customers. Simple as that. And if you're willing to lose customers just to make a point ("I told you it was obsolete, dammit!"), that's your problem, but usually not a wise decision. You may decide this if you don't have the resources to keep supporting it. And here, it exactly looks like what nigelwright7557 did. And again if he had to choose between dropping 7 or 8/8.1, the market share figures make the decision pretty obvious IMHO.

Since Windows 7 still has between 20% and 25% (depending on the source) of market share among Windows users, it IS significant enough to decide, as a software editor, not to drop support for it.
And knowing many engineers, I'd even venture that this % is higher among engineers themselves, so if you sell software for engineers, well. That's definitely significant.

Wise or not, the vast majority of the market has dropped Windows 7 support or is preparing to do so. As nigelwright7557 has found, supporting unsupported versions can lead to frustrations for your customer and there may not be a lot you can do about it. Avoiding the risk of supporting your software on unsupported platforms makes a lot of business sense, no matter the market share. Looking at the numbers it seems that the Windows 7 market share is significantly smaller in parts of the world like the US and the EU where most revenue tends to be generated and is significantly larger in markets like Africa and India. I can only imagine companies know their customers and their books and have taken this into account.

[NorthGuy]

Wise or not, the vast majority of the market has dropped Windows 7 support or is preparing to do so.

Where did you get this information? I use Windows 7 and, except for Intuit Tax software, I haven't seen a single vendor who would drop support.

[Mr. Scram]

Where did you get this information? I use Windows 7 and, except for Intuit Tax software, I haven't seen a single vendor who would drop support.

We checked to see the impact of Windows 7 going EOL on our software library and found this to be the case. Many applications are either no longer supported or using Windows 7 isn't recommended. Solidworks ended support. Autodesk's Fusion 360 ended support. Adobe CC ended support. Altium is recommending against it.  KiCAD ended support. Chrome still supports it but essentially announced that's not going to last, which impacts a lot of saas applications. The list goes on.

[JPortici]

I have used Win 10 since it came out.
It was a bit buggy and unstable to start with but is about 99.9% fine now.
I recently had a customer complain the software I sold him wouldnt run under Win 7 32 bit.
According to Microsoft it should.
So I installed Win 7/32 on my pc and indeed it doesnt even with SP1 and other prerequisites.
So I tried to install Visual Studio to find out where my code crashed out.
That didnt get past the installer before crashing out.
So gave up.

visual studio, which version?
i managed to install VS6 on win10 and i run VS6 on a semi-daily basis, on windows 10.
zero issues. In fact, it seems to be running better than in win 7.
(There are many guides on how to do this, but you may also need to install the visual studio runtime separately)

from time to time i have to install more recent versions of studio, zero issues.

[nctnico]

No. As a software editor, you either support an OS or you don't, according to 1/ your customer base and 2/ your abilities. Given 7 still has a significant market share, wheras 8 and 8.1 don't, there is nothing else to consider here. As I said, all that matters is whether you want to lose customers or not. Everything else is wank.

Windows 7 is past End of Life. Anything else can be endlessly argued and debated and is indeed wank, though it does appear almost all relevant developers seem to follow suit.

That was not the debate here (at least not in my reply, relative to what nigelwright7557 decided, and which some found odd.)

Again, as a software editor, your only concern is whether the OSs you decide to support have a significant market share or not. Else you lose customers. Simple as that. And if you're willing to lose customers just to make a point ("I told you it was obsolete, dammit!"), that's your problem, but usually not a wise decision. You may decide this if you don't have the resources to keep supporting it. And here, it exactly looks like what nigelwright7557 did. And again if he had to choose between dropping 7 or 8/8.1, the market share figures make the decision pretty obvious IMHO.

Since Windows 7 still has between 20% and 25% (depending on the source) of market share among Windows users, it IS significant enough to decide, as a software editor, not to drop support for it.
And knowing many engineers, I'd even venture that this % is higher among engineers themselves, so if you sell software for engineers, well. That's definitely significant.

I agree. Mr Scram is just repeating his opinion but the reality is different. Software companies will support Windows 7 for as long as there is a benefit. To me personally the whole Windows thing is obsolete so I'm not going to invest in migrating (not even sure font anti-aliasing can be fully disabled in Windows 10 nowadays; if not then that is a hard fail because anti-aliased fonts give me an instant headache). By the time Windows 7 is no longer useable I won't be needing Windows anyway. I'm still using Windows XP (in a VM) on an almost daily basis for a few programs that are convenient to use.

[Mr. Scram]

I agree. Mr Scram is just repeating his opinion but the reality is different. Software companies will support Windows 7 for as long as there is a benefit. To me personally the whole Windows thing is obsolete so I'm not going to invest in migrating (not even sure font anti-aliasing can be fully disabled in Windows 10 nowadays; if not then that is a hard fail because anti-aliased fonts give me an instant headache). By the time Windows 7 is no longer useable I won't be needing Windows anyway. I'm still using Windows XP (in a VM) on an almost daily basis for a few programs that are convenient to use.

There is no opinion. Windows 7 is officially obsolete and many developers are dropping support. I know that's not what some here want to hear, but it's the situation as it is. My personal opinion, denial or romantic notions aren't going to change the situation.

[NorthGuy]

We checked to see the impact of Windows 7 going EOL on our software library and found this to be the case. Many applications are either no longer supported or using Windows 7 isn't recommended. Solidworks ended support. Autodesk's Fusion 360 ended support. Adobe CC ended support. Altium is recommending against it.  KiCAD ended support. Chrome still supports it but essentially announced that's not going to last, which impacts a lot of saas applications. The list goes on.

I also checked all of my software. Looks like I'll be able to run everything on Linux just fine.

[nctnico]

I agree. Mr Scram is just repeating his opinion but the reality is different. Software companies will support Windows 7 for as long as there is a benefit. To me personally the whole Windows thing is obsolete so I'm not going to invest in migrating (not even sure font anti-aliasing can be fully disabled in Windows 10 nowadays; if not then that is a hard fail because anti-aliased fonts give me an instant headache). By the time Windows 7 is no longer useable I won't be needing Windows anyway. I'm still using Windows XP (in a VM) on an almost daily basis for a few programs that are convenient to use.

There is no opinion. Windows 7 is officially obsolete and many developers are dropping support.

There is a difference between dropping support and really dropping support. Ofcourse the official statement from many developers will be that they won't support Windows 7 or stop supporting it. But the reality is that most of them still do in order not to lose existing customers. Also Windows software which is well written will run just fine on a wide variety of versions. The same goes for running software in a VM. Many software developers don't support that officially but that doesn't mean they won't help customers to run their software in a VM. In the end a sale is a sale. You want to make it look like Windows7 stops working tomorrow but that isn't the case.

[SilverSolder]

If you are on a special plan with Microsoft, it is not obsolete - it has another couple of years or so to go, with full update availability, if I remember correctly.

It will still be around in various terminals and fixed embedded systems for years after that...

There are still hundreds of millions of PCs out there running Win 7.

Win 7 is/was a well loved Windows version...

Mere mortals don't have access to extended support. We can go back and forth about specifics and people tend to regularly get very touchy when it comes to Windows 7 but the long story short is that it's obsolete.

As long as Microsoft supports it (at whatever price) it is cannot be obsolete, by the definition of the word!

[beanflying]

For a bunch of Electronics nerds the Windows 7 or bust mob should have stuck with Valves and Bumble Bee's Unless you have a specific Hardware or mission critical Application that simply won't do W10 (more likely you are still using XP for that reason) just put your big boy pants on and upgrade already or go join the Linux crew 

[rsjsouza]

I dislike Windows 10, go along with Windows 8.1 as a stop gap before it becomes obsolete (or end of life or whatever term pleases the masses) and love windows 7. Still have it installed in two of my machines (one isolated from the interwebs) and still does the job for my personal purposes and do not plan to migrate anytime soon.

For work, however, I was one of the leading voices to kill Windows 7 support as soon as January 2020 hit. Our dev team is relatively small and testing costs a boatload of money - when Apple decides to crap on everyone with Catalina and Linux has always been a moving target, somehting is gonna give. The $$$ speak louder.

Sure, our software still runs fine in Windows 7 (I have a few hosts running it flawlessly) but, when the questions arrive from folks with weird configurations to circumvent one or another security gap or hack, I do not want to be the one on the other side of the line. So, for work, Windows 7 is obsolete.

[NorthGuy]

Our dev team is relatively small and testing costs a boatload of money

Testing is a different story. I have lots of testing machines - from XP to W 10, different Linuxes, Macs. Some virtual, but most real.

[SilverSolder]

For a bunch of Electronics nerds the Windows 7 or bust mob should have stuck with Valves and Bumble Bee's Unless you have a specific Hardware or mission critical Application that simply won't do W10 (more likely you are still using XP for that reason) just put your big boy pants on and upgrade already or go join the Linux crew 

I also use W10 for work...  but for most electronics/lab purposes, there is little reason to upgrade a working and reliable Windows 7 installation,  which, for many hobbyists, is perhaps used to work with a lot of test gear that definitely IS obsolete! 

In fact, you often "lose" older devices and software (printer drivers for older printers is often an issue) when Windows moves to a new version.  -  You can of course work around that by running Windows 7 in a virtual machine on Windows 10 -  but what is the real benefit?   I'm not even convinced security is a major concern...  after all, if you are a hacker, are you are definitely going to focus on W10 as that is where all the rich pickings are going to be...  all the low tech users, with their browsers full of juicy banking information etc.

Look at it this way:  have you ever come across a use case where you would need to run Windows 10 in a virtual machine if your PC is on Windows 7, in order to get a job done?  Theoretically, these use cases must exist...   but I haven't seen one yet.

[Jeroen3]

That printer must be at least 20 years old for it to not work on Windows 10. Printer support is surprisingly backwards compatible.
I got a HP 950c to work plug&play on Windows 10! USB was a novelty in those times.

if you are a hacker, are you are definitely going to focus on W10 as that is where all the rich pickings are going to be...  all the low tech users, with their browsers full of juicy banking information etc.

That is wrong, you average stubborn home user isn't going to pay the bitcoins. The local hospital or municipality is.

Look at it this way:  have you ever come across a use case where you would need to run Windows 10 in a virtual machine if your PC is on Windows 7, in order to get a job done?  Theoretically, these use cases must exist...   but I haven't seen one yet.

Yes, before my work PC was migrated to Windows 10 I had to test our applications in Windows 10. Ms now offers test vm's.
https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/downloads/virtual-machines/

[SilverSolder]

That printer must be at least 20 years old for it to not work on Windows 10. Printer support is surprisingly backwards compatible.
I got a HP 950c to work plug&play on Windows 10! USB was a novelty in those times.

[...]

I have an example:  with the migration from XP to Vista,  HP did re-issue drivers for the older printers...  but the new drivers didn't support the same high resolution modes as the old drivers!      So, device manufacturers may or may not take the opportunity for a bit of planned obsolescence of their own, just like Microsoft.

I'm not really hating on Windows 10, just prioritizing it in the bigger scheme of things.

In an ideal world we would all just buy a new Win 10 PC, and a new printer including a subscription for ink cartridges, and the rest of it.  But the world is not ideal, we  have to spend a limited budget where it gives us the biggest improvement.   Does a nice new W10 box do more for you than keeping the old Win 7 one for a couple of years more, and buying a new scope today instead?   To my mind, it is no contest - there is nothing I can do in Win 10 that I can't do in Win 7.  So, I'll treat myself to a nice scope, spectrum analyzer, or wine, women, and song,  any of which I would consider a bigger improvement to my life than upgrading my Win 7 box to a Win 10 one.   

[wraper]

if you are a hacker, are you are definitely going to focus on W10 as that is where all the rich pickings are going to be...  all the low tech users, with their browsers full of juicy banking information etc.

That is wrong, you average stubborn home user isn't going to pay the bitcoins. The local hospital or municipality is.

I'm quite sure of opposite. Once I received an email stating that they hacked my computer and it included my password stolen from one hacked forum. I knew about this stolen password for a few years as it was taken from a very old stolen password database. Email did not even contain my name. It claimed they have recordings of me fapping while I watched pron, LOL. And bitcoin address to pay $700 ransom, otherwise they will release it to the public. Then I checked transactions on that bitcoin address. And you know what? Idiots transferred about $30k over two days to someone who had nothing on them at all. 

[Mr. Scram]

There is a difference between dropping support and really dropping support. Ofcourse the official statement from many developers will be that they won't support Windows 7 or stop supporting it. But the reality is that most of them still do in order not to lose existing customers. Also Windows software which is well written will run just fine on a wide variety of versions. The same goes for running software in a VM. Many software developers don't support that officially but that doesn't mean they won't help customers to run their software in a VM. In the end a sale is a sale. You want to make it look like Windows7 stops working tomorrow but that isn't the case.

I'm not trying to make anything look like anything. I'm noting how things are. Whether you want to go without support is up to individual users. Counting on getting any while support has officially ended is a risky move. That's a risk the home gamer with little to lose may be willing to take, but probably a bad idea when livelihoods are involved. Most companies seem to agree and have moved to Windows 10 by now. Most developers don't seem to be intentionally sabotaging Windows 7 compatibility, but I wouldn't count on getting any kind of support unless you're maybe a client with a huge amount of seats and are throwing fists of money at the developer. Supporting a product on an unsupported platform can be a huge and costly pain in the neck and few companies will be willing to do that for a few sales here and there. It's not worth the hassle and risk and any time spent is essentially wasted on a dead product line.

[Mr. Scram]

As long as Microsoft supports it (at whatever price) it is cannot be obsolete, by the definition of the word!

I'm surprised this keeps coming up. People don't seem to complain about Keysight calling devices obsolete, despite parts being available. Read "End of Life" or "dead" or whatever floats your boat instead. The world at large and especially you and me cannot get support and updates, which means this version of Windows is obsolete. Having the ability to throw money at extended support because your organisation messed up migrating in time does little to alleviate this.

[SilverSolder]

As long as Microsoft supports it (at whatever price) it is cannot be obsolete, by the definition of the word!

I'm surprised this keeps coming up. People don't seem to complain about Keysight calling devices obsolete, despite parts being available. Read "End of Life" or "dead" or whatever floats your boat instead. The world at large and especially you and me cannot get support and updates, which means this version of Windows is obsolete. Having the ability to throw money at extended support because your organisation messed up migrating in time does little to alleviate this.

It isn't complicated - Microsoft has made Win 7 obsolete for most people, but not all.    But it isn't as if Windows 7 suddenly stopped working - there is really no rush to upgrade on a machine where having the latest security patches is not important.   It's like keeping an old car - there is no guaranteed parts availability,  there will be no product recalls or fixes if some component turns out to be a fire hazard or whatever.  Doesn't stop millions of people driving older cars, right?

There are even ways for ordinary punters to get hold of the updates if they really want to...   but if that is important to you, you should really be updating to Win 10.

[rsjsouza]

According to Merriam-Webster, obsolete can be applicable here if used in the sense of something no longer current. However, another meaning is something no longer used or useful, and that is certainly the crux of the matter - it will depend on personal opinion.

A piece of software will never be out of usefulness even if its hardware no longer exists, as one could still use the ideas and implementation methods in another piece of software. I don't have hardware-absent software, but I have all sorts of obsolete (= not current) OSes here in my vault (DOS, Windows 3.11, 95, 98, etc.) that are not obsolete (!= no longer useful), as I needed to revamp an old piece of hardware and used DOS6.22 + Windows 3.11 here. So, the word can cause duplicity.

A similar case could be that an analog TV set on its own has become obsolete in both senses for over the air broadcast in the places where the traditional bands were sunset. By using an external VCR, HDTV downconverter or other gadget, it just becomes obsolete (= not current) but still very useful.

[SilverSolder]

It might make sense to rephrase the question...  to something like,  "Does it make sense to keep using Windows 7 in a specific situation".

And of course, we should expect the answer to be "Yes" or "No", depending on the specific situation!   :-D