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There's at least 1 huge thread on this subject already. It also generates a lot of "heated discussion", so I'd do a search first and get an idea of what has been posted.

If you can obtain a license for Windows 10 LTSC, use that one.

For new installations, Windows 7 should not be used anymore. One expection might be fully airgapped systems, but i assume that would not be the case for you.
So, if you really dislike Windows 10, you should carefully consider if you need Windows at all. For many things, Linux can be a very good alternative. Not for me sadly, i play too many games 

If you need or want Windows, choose Windows 10. I am still not a user myself, but i have read quite a bit about it. The latestest version now actually lets you postpone updates, even indefinetly, if you want. Also, i have heard that Microsoft supposedly will change the way major updates are installed, so those are not a full background re-install anymore. There are also, as far as i know, programs that let you change back the look and feel, at least somewhat.

Regarding LTSC, sometimes still called LTSB: Regardless of their availability (it is not available as single, off the shelf license, which is true for EDU versions as well), it is also somewhat limited in functionality, and for example cannot run the latest Office version. Though that may only apply to Office 365.

The one thing that still holds me off personally are the many privacy issues, since you still cannot fully disable telemetry without an external solution.

For new installations, Windows 7 should not be used anymore. One expection might be fully airgapped systems, but i assume that would not be the case for you.
So, if you really dislike Windows 10, you should carefully consider if you need Windows at all. For many things, Linux can be a very good alternative. Not for me sadly, i play too many games 

If you need or want Windows, choose Windows 10. I am still not a user myself, but i have read quite a bit about it. The latestest version now actually lets you postpone updates, even indefinetly, if you want. Also, i have heard that Microsoft supposedly will change the way major updates are installed, so those are not a full background re-install anymore. There are also, as far as i know, programs that let you change back the look and feel, at least somewhat.

Regarding LTSC, sometimes still called LTSB: Regardless of their availability (it is not available as single, off the shelf license, which is true for EDU versions as well), it is also somewhat limited in functionality, and for example cannot run the latest Office version. Though that may only apply to Office 365.

The one thing that still holds me off personally are the many privacy issues, since you still cannot fully disable telemetry without an external solution.

The Enterprise and Education versions *should* allow to disable telemetry. If not, Microsoft will have a lot of angry and fairly powerful customers to answer to.

SiliconWizard is right about the Pro version. I forgot to mention that because i thought it is obvious. That is why i mentioned the EDU version: There you can turn of telemetry completly, i assume this is related to COPPA.

The security of course is determined by how you use it, and how it is connected to the internet.

I personally think, if there is even just one single port forwarded to your box, you should not stay on Windows 7. Especially something like Remote Desktop. MS even released a Windows XP patch, because a security flaw in RDP allowed a full takeover of the machine. With such forwardings, it is also imperative to not delay patching for too long. A couple of weeks or even a month is fine though: Give all the others the time to find and report the issues :p

My own box is primarily a gaming machine, and has no port forwardings at all. If that was all i am doing, i could reasonably expect to stay on 7. But support for Windows 7 is already flaky in the gaming area (for example Direct X 11 vs. 12), so i will switch sooner or later.
By the way, the free upgrade from Windows 7 supposedly still works. You should be able to simply enter your Win 7 product keyduring the installation of Windows 10.

EDIT: Normal Enterprise does not allow you to turn of telemetry fully. At my company we had to work quite some time to find acceptable outbound firewall settings to block most (hopefully ) telememtry, without affecting functionality, and it is scary to see the number of requests that are blocked all the time.

Can you elaborate on telemetry not being turned off fully? They added that feature because companies wouldn't have it. I can't imagine some big and somewhat powerful companies not raising hell when it turns out telemetry still not being turned off.

I think this only applies to retail versions of Windows 7.

How compatible is Win 10 when it comes to drivers for older printers, scanners, and the like...   do Win 7 drivers still work?

How about the biased version just to give a perspective for comparison.

You don't understand. He's unbiased. It says it right there under his name: Mo-de-ra-tor. 

In any case, what I meant by "unbiased" was that ask me 10 or 15 years ago, it was Windows for pretty much every application. It was quite difficult to turn my back on decades of Windows/DOS knowledge (although it does make transitioning into Linux quite simple). I wish Windows didn't go down the toilet and that they didn't absolutely butcher the user interface, but it is what it is. I didn't go down the Apple route because I refuse to spend thousands of dollars on a machine which I can build myself for half the price.

Although Linux's overall market share is still tiny compared to Windows, I think the steady increase in users year after year isn't by accident.

For as long as your computer is not connected to internet or a public network you don't really need OS security patches. What you do need to keep up-to-date is your web browser, e-mail program and malware/virus scanner. These are the points of entry. The network not so much.

All the things you mention depend on the integrity and security of the OS. Running an OS unpatched while using the internet is asking for trouble. Even if what you say is true the smallest mistake could leave a very soft and vulnerable system suddenly exposed. Unfortunately that has been discussed numerous times before and people tend to hold on to their risky beliefs.

@ pcdroid13  only   

If you don't want to find out the hard way    stick with a fresh install of Win 7 

If you need to go further than 7 without stuffing about with bossy boots 10,

there is always Win 8 and 8.1, which allow you to control what and what will not be installed by MS,
and any legit updates only how and when YOU specify

Linux is great, but not convenient for all current Windows users, but well worth a play to get familiar   

But whatever you do, don't get dragged off into the Mac camp,
it won't be pretty after the honeymoon new user period is over, and the shiny hardware loses it's polish    
Basically it's handballing yourself from Win 10 to a rocky mountain Mac '10'   

Win 7 is good for a few years yet, as is XP, Vista.. 

I wouldn't call forced install of unwanted spyware and adware "security patches".

On the other hand, look at all those viruses devastating computer systems here and there. I'm sure all these computers had "security patches" installed. Didn't help them.

Sure, there's always a danger of virus, but IMHO it's much lesser evil than Windows 10.

They actually didn't. Almost all of the outbreaks we hear about were in organisations who didn't properly patch their systems. Zero days are quite rare for generic malware. They tend to stick to published vulnerabilities. There's a lot to be said about the current Microsoft policies, but reducing Windows updates to "unwanted spyware and adware" and nothing else is being intentionally dishonest. Let's aim for some nuance, because we already have too much flinging of polarized shit.

I don't really know what they're doing.

My view is that it all started when they decided to jump on the "mobile" bandwagon, some time around when Apple's iPhone began to take off. My understanding is that they suddenly began to be afraid of Apple's competition, something they had managed to keep under "control", or even ignore, for several decades. Incidentally, that's also when Bill Gates decided to stop all operational work at MS. You may conclude what you wish.

Apple pretty much introduced some key ideas at the time: that mobile platforms were going to be something big in terms of market, that the line between mobile and desktop computers was going to get fuzzy, and that a common OS architecture and associated online services was an interesting idea to go down this road. Microsoft basically took all those ideas and went on with the development of Windows 8, Windows Phone (a major flop), their cloud services, etc.

Beyond the Windows Phone disaster, they saw that "software as a service" was the new graal, promising a regular revenue stream. No more uncertainties, no more "every other OS version is a failure". Windows 10, Office 365 are epitomes of this new strategy. Do not let users have a choice. Choice is bad!

Sadly, what really started it all was this "one OS for all platforms" idea, which IMO utterly failed: Windows Phone was a commercial flop, I consider Microsoft tablets a semi-flop as well, but MS still insisted on shoving all those "mobile" paradigms and UI quirks down the throat of desktop users, leaving a very inconsistent UI, whereas Windows until then had maybe not the prettiest UI, but a very consistent one.

Beyond Windows' case, software as a service is just an example of the trend to switch from a traditional sales model (companies sell products to people that become owners) to a rent model, in which consumers do not really own their goods anymore, they just rent them. This raises a ton of questions, including the position of private property in this "new" world.

Does anyone know if there is a tool that nukes all the annoying things from win 10 ?
There used to be something called pcdecrapifier to hunt down all the junk companies install on store bought machines. ( like demoe and time limited junk.)

what i want to accomplish :

- Disable automatic updates. Download them but let me choose when to install. The install system is broken.
- disable anything that gets sent back to microsoft.
- give me back a windows XP/7 style start menu. this stupidity of having to type in what you want makes me want to go back to dos
- DESTROY FROM ORBIT that bloody Cortana shit that is constantly eating cpu cycles and trashing around on the drive
- disable the drive indexing for fastsearch or whatever they call it these days.

apart from that i can live with win 10.

whjat version should i buy. We use win10 at work and have none of that stuff but i can't get that on my home edition ( we run enterprise and the price of that is unpalatable for my home machines )

Quote from: Halcyon on July 07, 2019, 05:03:46 am

I'm a Windows guy and there is absolutely nothing wrong with Windows 10, it's not shit, you're just doing it wrong. ;-)

</sarcasm>

I was thinking about this for a moment.  I do not like being sodomized by Bill Gates. For me "doing it right" would mean switching around and I get to sodomize Bill Gates while I get paid humongous amounts of money to do so. Yes, that sounds a bit better than Win10.

Windows was best in Bill Gate's time. For what it has become today blame that new clown who's name i can't even pronounce.

The biggest issue IMO from going from a PC/laptop with Win 7 to Win 10 is driver compatibility, especially on laptops with Intel HD Integrated Graphics.

Intel and MS decided in order to get you to purchase a new laptop, they will not produce proper drivers for Win 10 on legacy hardware. So if you have a PC/laptop that came with Windows 7, Windows 10 is going to be a nightmare when it comes to driver compatibility.

Never say never

The biggest issue IMO from going from a PC/laptop with Win 7 to Win 10 is driver compatibility, especially on laptops with Intel HD Integrated Graphics.

Intel and MS decided in order to get you to purchase a new laptop, they will not produce proper drivers for Win 10 on legacy hardware. So if you have a PC/laptop that came with Windows 7, Windows 10 is going to be a nightmare when it comes to driver compatibility.

A lot of companies are currently making the move from Windows 7 to 10 as the support for 7 is being dropped and this doesn't appear to be a relevant hurdle.

If you value your sanity, go with 7, I was forced to use Win10 at work for around 2 years and hated every minute of it. Screw the security updates, Windows Update has lost all credibility and is on par with your average foreign malware, the cure is worse than the disease.

Use an up to date browser, run NoScript and AdBlock always, consider a good antivirus program and keep it updated, don't download sketchy warez and you'll be fine. I disabled Windows Update 4 years ago on every Windows machine I have left, zero problems, zero infections. Ignore the handful of chicken littles who will scream that the sky is falling, let them scream until their face turns blue.

Or you could consider just dumping Windows all together and going with Linux, I'm now running that on all but one PC in the house.

Current predictions are that 35% of Windows installations will still be Windows 7 when end-of-life support happens in January 14, 2020. The question is, how long can you go without running into a game-breaking issue because of no further updates? That answer is going to be measured in years for most people. And I'd suggest that support from non-Microsoft vendors of software and hardware that will eventually end up being a bigger issue than updates, in most cases. Most of which are not going to drop Windows 7 support until the user base shrinks more than it has.

If a security problem shows up that is deemed critical, Microsoft will avoid the PR nightmare of not fixing it and fix it anyway. Witness last months patch that included every version of windows as far back as XP, version3: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4500705/customer-guidance-for-cve-2019-0708

Yes, Windows XP still has a small share of the market, even after being out of support for many years.

I must say I am a bit of a sucker for Windows 7, I did install a new version of 10 and it did ask me if I wanted to allow Microsoft to send data and allow Cortana to run, so I think the newer installers must give more options when installing?

Anyway, I found, and it's not a "new"thing, but Windows 10 will install and run fine without a license key, I think the only thing I couldn't do was personalise it (desktop background), but there are ways around that, and it displays the Windows activation message on the desktop, which again, there are ways around that, so if you wanted to try it then I don't know what other limitations there are, but even the enterprise version seems to run without limitation, or I haven't found any, I did only pay a few GBP's for the full license which it seemed happy to activate and work with.

You can download the ISO from Microsoft Windows 10 download site, if using Windows already then set the browser to send the user agent through as Apple or something and refresh the page it'll then allow you to download the ISO rather than the toolkit to create media.

Note that those still willing to use Win 7 AND get updates, it's going to be possible until 2023:

https://www.techspot.com/news/76354-microsoft-extends-paid-windows-7-support-until-2023.html

To this day, I have absolutely no clue how much they will charge for this though.

Edit: didn't notice that "It’ll be available to all Windows 7 Professional and Windows 7 Enterprise customers with volume licensing."
So that's basically for businesses and not for end-users...

Extended support is typically used by big institutions like governments caught out by the support ending. Microsoft is willing to provide extended support but expect to pay dearly. It's not viable for normal end users in more ways than one.

Windows 10 fools users into thinking they have backed up the registry when, in fact, no backup was made.

Nice.

I don't know how anyone could ever tolerate those never-ending fuckups... it's a disaster. Really. I know some people here are still convinced that Windows 10 is great and that everyone saying otherwise is a moron that doesn't understand what progress is all about, but still. How can you ever tolerate that?

Does anyone know if there is a tool that nukes all the annoying things from win 10 ?
There used to be something called pcdecrapifier to hunt down all the junk companies install on store bought machines. ( like demoe and time limited junk.)

There is a tool
"This Windows 10 Setup Script turns off a bunch of unnecessary Windows 10 telemetery, bloatware, & privacy things. Not guaranteed to catch everything."

 https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1

I am using Windows 10,but i miss Windos 7.

Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 15, 2019, 02:03:32 pm

You can forget about control over updates. It's not going to happen.

so how do it departments do that then ? we never get updates unless it applies them ?
what version do they use then ?

You need enterprise version for that. Which you cannot buy in retail.

so how do it departments do that then ? we never get updates unless it applies them ?
what version do they use then ?

Non security updates can be deferred up to a year, after that it's obligatory. The only exception is the LTSB but that's not recommended for regular use. While I don't agree with the current system the old system very definitely was broken. Something needed to be done and the amount of possible configurations needed to be reduced which is what Microsoft did.

Really amuses me to see folks get so bent out of shape over free updates.  The following is all personal anecdote over 2.5 decades of home PC's (all hand-built) and looking after the machines of a small company (~150 hosts) mostly Dell for 2 decades.

The OS notifies you and gives you deferral options (Win 10 Pro at least), if I'm not making an overnight test run then start the update as I leave work, for home systems as I'm going to bed.

In the past it was way worse. Fucking crap would reboot your computer when you turned away for 10 seconds. Now they made it way less annoying apparently due to backlash. You could often see gaming streams ruined by update rebooting computer. Also this freaking crap crippled my laptop by automatically updating one driver to wrong version. It was unable to shut down properly and remained in sort of sleep state. My colleague (IT specialist) had the same issue with the same model and was pulling out his hair unable to fix the issue. He thought it was HW failure. Only after many hours of trial and error, several windows reinstalls and googling I found what was happening. And the worst part, in the beginning it was possible do disable update for particular driver. But later it changed to possibility only deterring it's update only until new version came out  . Not that it was straight forward process to begin with. You need to download special tool from MS to do that.
Another thing was HD4850 GPU. It has no official driver support from AMD for win 10. However driver which was automatically installed by early versions of win 10 worked just fine, including 3D. But then came driver update and completely ruined it. IIRC it was very hard to preserve driver version that worked.

Just remembered how windows update ruined every single AIO computer of particular model in several offices in different countries of company I worked at. They could no longer boot completely and could not be fixed remotely.

Free cheese can only be found in a mousetrap.

Tell that to the owners of literally billions of devices without software updates and known vulnerabilities.

Well, it allows to choose your executioner, which for some people is weirdly reassuring.
 

At one time I had a huge problem with an automated update and since then, I have automatic updates disabled on all my PC's for years already.

Instead I am using a good firewall, anti-virus and anti-spyware programs.

I do the same on some older XP machines and have zero problems.

I guess you never heard of the phrase 'the cure is worst than the disease'.

A vulnerability is only a problem if people can get to it. In many cases the vulnerabilities are only a problem in very specific use cases.

You will never convince a fanboy or corporate apologist, to them the company can do no wrong and the pathetic ignorant peons need to bend over and take it because someone else knows best.

To the rest of us it is obvious that a computer that is doing unexpected things, acting as a platform to push and monetize products and services we didn't ask for thwarting our efforts to configure things and keep it under our control, and becoming unusuable for significant periods of time due to forced updates is indistinguishable from one that is infected with malware that is performing similar actions.

Fanboys will also consistently ignore the fact that the vast majority of malware and virus infections out there are due to the user installing sketchy things, either random warez, crapware installers bundled with legitimate free software or various social engineering tactics to coerce people into downloading and installing fake virus cleaners and such. All the patching and updates in the world can't patch user behavior.

Anyway it doesn't take a genius to see that the whole forced update thing is really all about monetization of the platform, only an idiot would believe that Microsoft gave Win10 away for free out of the goodness of their hearts to bestow a gift on humanity. It's free because it gives them unprecedented control over millions of computers and creates a platform for gathering marketing data and hawking their services. If a company gives you something for free then you are the product, there's something bigger in it for them, always.

It's free because it gives them unprecedented control over millions of computers and creates a platform for gathering marketing data and hawking their services. If a company gives you something for free then you are the product, there's something bigger in it for them, always.

It seems the subscription model is the "plat du jour" of most of the big IT companies these days -  Google, Apple, any number of application vendors.  Look what happened to Youtube:  it was free for years, then the advertising began...  of course, you can subscribe and get away from that.     Dropbox was free for years, today the restrictions are getting tighter, encouraging you to subscribe to regain lost ground. 

Microsoft and others want to remove the choice of "just owning the application" and being free to use it for 5-10 years, warts and all...  yet that is actually the most cost efficient way to run the shop (which means, of course, least profitable for the vendor).

What nobody seems to have thought through is that there are only so many subscriptions the average consumer, business, institution can afford to have leeching away at their accounts every month...

Warning to Windows 7 users!!!

I would disable/stop using Windows Updates now while things still work because believe me, sometime between now and January 2020, Microsoft is guaranteed to throw a monkey wrench into an unsuspected update and you will be fucked with no going back...

I just got the first pop-up warning upon starting Windows 7 today about end of support.

More information points you to a funny MS page: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-7-end-of-life-support-information?OCID=win7_app_omc_win

They don't just suggest to switch to Windows 10. They actually suggest to buy a new computer!

Okay, let's think about it. We've been getting black box updates all our lives. In theory you could refuse them, but few people or companies do this in practice. You wouldn't know what to refuse in the first place. We're not even talking about covert updates systems or the things you're trying to avoid already in the software from the start. So how much bigger is the current "issue" really? Not a smidegeon.

This makes whole world of difference. Say, with Win 7, when I realized that new updates are likely to be harmful, I simply disabled them and killed Update service. That easy. Of course there may be something I overlooked. Well, if Microsoft attacks, I'll just kill the whole box and move to Linux. I'm 90% ready for Linux.

Microsoft relies on trust.   We like Win7 because generally, we sorta kinda trust it, having gotten used to it.   Win10 on the other hand...

I trusted their update system completely until they stooped to malware levels, coercion and trickery to aggressively push Win10. That trust evaporated overnight and I don't think they will ever be able to get it back.

I just got the first pop-up warning upon starting Windows 7 today about end of support.

More information points you to a funny MS page: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-7-end-of-life-support-information?OCID=win7_app_omc_win

They don't just suggest to switch to Windows 10. They actually suggest to buy a new computer!

In the FAQ

 Can I upgrade Windows 7 to Windows 10 for free?
....
" You can purchase and download Windows 10 on your device today. Although, if your computer is more than three years old, it might be time to consider upgrading to a new device. We would love to help you find a computer that’s faster, safer, and delivers the new features Windows 10 has to offer before your current PC slows you down."
...

So windows 10 will slow down the  current Win7 PC ... good

Windows 10 is slightly less resource hungry than Windows 7. That makes sense, as 10 is an optimised version of 7 under the skin. We've confirmed this across a variety of systems, so it's not just marketing speak. I can imagine that this may change in the future as the rolling version of 10 adds more features though it's not a given.

I'm not sure why people are looking to fault Windows 10 so hard but they sure are. Don't get me wrong, there's more than one thing to actually hate but those are rarely the things people are complaining about.

i did an upgrade yesterday from win7 pro to win 10 pro.
during install it asked me what features i wanted to turn on or off ( telemetry, cortana speach ,and all kinds off 'send-to-microsoft' stuff.) i switched all off .
It retained all software and settings and the machine runs fine. it feels snappier than under win 7   (zbook 17 gen-2 which is 5 years old. these things are indestructible and basically portable workstations)

I deleted everything off the start panel ( like all the stupid games and other stuff ) and simply pinned my most commonly used programs to the taskbar and the lesser used ones tot he start panel.

It has not bugged me once. So it looks like the Pro version is the way to go.

Correct. Over time Windows becomes slower and slower because it accumulates all kinds of crap trying to make the system faster    Switch to Linux and you will experience how snappy a OS can be for real. Even under heavy load a Linux system stays responsive. Try that with Windows.

i did an upgrade yesterday from win7 pro to win 10 pro.
during install it asked me what features i wanted to turn on or off ( telemetry, cortana speach ,and all kinds off 'send-to-microsoft' stuff.) i switched all off .
It retained all software and settings and the machine runs fine. it feels snappier than under win 7   (zbook 17 gen-2 which is 5 years old. these things are indestructible and basically portable workstations)

I deleted everything off the start panel ( like all the stupid games and other stuff ) and simply pinned my most commonly used programs to the taskbar and the lesser used ones tot he start panel.

It has not bugged me once. So it looks like the Pro version is the way to go.

Yep, I'm running Enterprise on a 3.7G I3 and it works just fine.
Had W7 for years and did a dual boot with 8.1 for a while to get used to its newer layout then jumped to 10 exclusively and it's getting better all the time. ON all the time and sleeping when not used and updates are becoming less frequent and if it does a reboot it seems to support reopening programs better now in that you have the option to continue where you last finished.

Same here, I still use Thunderbird from 2007, they ruined it in version 3 and usage gradually fell off until the whole product was killed. I use WinAmp 2.something from the early 2000's as a quick audio player, I use MS Office 2003 that I bought at the company store way back when I worked there and it's still great. I think with most products they steadily develop getting better and better and then at some point they are mature and there is nothing left to do but keep fixing it until it's broken.

This is not exclusive to software either, it happens with all kinds of consumer products and I largely blame marketing. The effort becomes focused on reinventing the wheel and making it look new and different rather than making it better. It already does everything it needs to do and then some, it already has a great interface, it already lasts a long time, so just start making arbitrary changes and cost reductions and pretty soon it sucks and/or looks just the same as all the other marketing study driven designs. Just look at modern car design for example:

It all depends on your use-case scenario, obviously there is no clear answer until we know more about your specific purposes, the environment the machine will be used in and what you plan on doing with it down the road. But I will share with you my experience doing a major office upgrade from Windows XP on a bunch of old computers (circa 2009) and that used a bunch of proprietary imaging gear drivers that were made by companies who have since disappeared and no longer update or support the equipment (which cost me tens-of-thousands of dollars to buy!!!).

WIN-XP CATASTROPHE:

I was running WinXP in a networked office environment on at least 6 machines tied to a Windows Server. Keep in mind all this was installed back in 2008-2009 or so, I can't remember the exact year, but it has been a decade for sure or perhaps more. I decided to keep with this system up until now because things worked and I did not want to face any issues upgrading, as there were a lot of proprietary specialized imaging systems attached that use special USB drivers that were made only for WinXP.

Obviously WinXP support ended years ago, so I always had that annoying RED popup in the corner about End-Of-Support. Windows Defender wouldn't run, blah blah blah.... I was taking things into my own hands, living dangerously! And so I dreaded the upgrade process and procrastinated because of the cost and down-time involved. But I knew ONE DAY I would have to upgrade.

ARMAGEDDON:

So the DAY finally came crashing down on me at the end of June when there was an update in a critical piece of software that my office needed to communicate with insurance-related servers (to check certain things). The old communications protocol for that software was being shuttered and you had NO CHOICE but to use a newer version that needed to communicate using the new protocol, and that new version DID NOT RUN on WIN XP, PERIOD! It also had a few .NET dependencies and so on, all of which were not able to run on WIN XP. This was a *critical* need for my office to run and would have been a major pain if we didn't have it available to customer service. Therefore, it was time to upgrade!

First thing I did was buy a Win10 Pro machine (refurbed) and set it to run on SMB1 for the time being, because it needed to be able to communicate with the server and all the other WinXP machines in the office network. That Win10 machine received the critical software (for insurance) update and WHAM BAM I was able to at least install the new protocol software on there to keep functioning.    That took me out of critical situation for the moment.

Next, I started migrating my WinXP machines to Win10 Pro. Yes! THE SAME MACHINES that I bought over 10 years ago, nothing special, I pulled out the hard drives (just in case I didn't want to write over my stuff if I had to revert) and bought some cheap SSD's. I installed Win10 64-bit on most of my computers, from a Win10 USB-key I made a while back, and it boots and runs smoothly! At least for the software I use in the office, it does not require "gaming" level graphics or anything like that. I'm much happier being on Win10. I used my Win7 sticker info either from some other computers I have and lo-and-behold, it installed and activated and did not complain a bit!

The machines that plugged into the special imaging proprietary hardware gear (that used WinXP-era drivers) had to have Win10 32-bit installed on them. So I made myself another USB key with Win10 32-bit (downloaded the ISO from Microsoft) and proceeded to install it no problem. The drivers also installed and it took me a few tries and some hair-pulling to get them to work, because at first Win10 recognized the device based on the generic controller chip that was in it. I had to keep going into Device Manager and finding a way to delete or inactivate it quickly and letting my driver install get in first, otherwise it would keep trying to re-register it using a Win10 driver. Anyways, it worked! 

THE AFTERMATH:

Now the entire office is upgraded to Win10, it still runs all the software that I had running on my WinXP machines... the same proprietary WinXP-era software (of which there is no good upgrade and that I need) is running fine. I also installed my old Microsoft Office PRO that I was using back on my WinXP machines... I know these can be vulnerable but I prefer not to buy MS Office again, and anyways I will probably migrate over to LibreOffice. I also will need to flip over to SMB2 now that the entire office is Win10... that will patch up another possible security hole.

One piece of software that I could NOT find an update to that works on Win10 has to do with managing the VOIP system (TalkSwitch) that runs the telephones in the office. The software that lets me configure the VOIP box is no longer available, the old version does not run on Win10 and it was using a ton of Java code, and the Java runtime it depends on cannot be installed on Win10. I tried whatever I could, even registering on Java as a tested to be able to grab older Java runtimes and no matter what I did, the software gave an error. So the solution? I keep one WinXP machine still available but OFF in the backroom, so that if I ever need to configure the TalkSwitch (now Fortinet) VOIP box I plug it into the network and bring up the software and can make changes. Otherwise, that machine is unplugged/dormant.

MORAL OF THE STORY...

Win10 is not so bad as people think. I dreaded the upgrade, but it turns out even on my 10+ year old machines I was able to migrate and make old WinXP-era software work, even drivers that would have been impossible to update (and the equipment costs tens-of-thousands of dollars)... there was no way I was going to upgrade my hardware because of some stupid drivers. The solution was to use Win10 32-bit! I had a few issues with configuring 2-screen set ups but that was my fault because I didn't know about the Windows-Logo-key-P option to configure and switch screens. Also there was a delay in Windows 10 recognizing the NVidia graphics so it took 5 minutes after boot for it to actually install and let me configure it once and for all, and that was confusing because in those first 5 minutes I was scrambling to try to figure out why my video card is buggered up.

NOW WHAT DO I USE AT HOME?

I'm using Linux for all my private use computers, laptops, etc. One of my kids has a Win7 machine that he plays lots of games on, like Roblox for example.... try as I might, I can't get that to work on Linux/WINE. I did get many of his games to work on my Linux machine (WINE) but Roblox and a few others just don't work. So he stays with Win7 to play games, but it is a dual-boot so it has Linux on it as well, and everybody else in the house is using Linux (some flavour of Ubuntu although I've got many distros that I play around with).

IN CONCLUSION...

I think you should go to Win10 Pro and register it using a Win7 sticker, which Microsoft still appears to be honouring. If you are not ready to drop Microsoft altogether (and enter Linux-land) then that will be your best option. Unless you plan on being disconnected from the internet, you will face the same issues I had with WinXP in a few years. At some point you *WILL* need to move on with your life.

I would use the PRO version, and when I installed Win10 I chose "NO" to all of their extra features like Cortana, customized ads, blah blah blah. Everything was "NO" and also I did NOT register with a Microsoft account. Just set it up with a local account and don't forget your password. That way the machine is not tied to any online account. That can be harder later with regards to licensing and so on, migrating, etc. As you saw in my case, I was able to use my old computers (which I thought for sure would choke) to run Win10 smoothly, no problem, and I managed to save myself from upgrading 5-figure $$$ equipment because 32-bit Win10 still could handle WinXP-era drivers. So I see no good reason to stick to Win7 if you are just careful at how you install and properly version your Win10 installation. And the updates can be throttled down and controlled somewhat if you know what you are doing. Meanwhile, try to see if you can function in Linux and prepare yourself a machine or dual-booted install, so if Microsoft does anything crazy in the future you have a lifeboat to jump into. 

The bootloader from Windows 10 is really strange, as it won't even survive a disk clone anymore.

Really? So you can't actually clone disks now? Does changing disks involve a complete reinstall everytime?

It's a fresh clean install, of course the performance is great. The hardware requirements of Win10 are not an issue, if Win7 runs fast on a system then Win10 will run fast, that's not the problem.

The problem is that Win10 is a train wreck, the UI is fugly and inconsistent, it is buggy and the forced updates mean a constant stream of interruptions and new bugs, it is not just an OS but is primarily a platform for monetization and pushing of their other services. I've never used such a user-hostile OS and I'm so glad to be free of it now.

I'm a big proponent of personal responsibility. If you don't update and your system gets infected, that is your problem. I don't update (anymore) because I have been burned multiple times and no longer trust the updates but it is my responsibility to secure my systems. Threats are always going to be out there but most of it is overblown FUD. I've cleaned up infected systems for people dozens of times over the years and in literally every single example I can recall, the infection happened because someone installed something sketchy. I don't think I have ever encountered a PC that was infected via some kind of exploit even once, ever.

Note that I'm referring to *personal* computers, not outward facing servers that are directly exposed to the internet, those obviously need to be patched regularly.

I'm a big proponent of personal responsibility. If you don't update and your system gets infected, that is your problem.

So am I.
The only problem with that is that it may have consequences not just for you, but for others as well. An "infected" OS can for instance in turn become part of a virus deployment system.
If you're computer-savvy enough, it's usually not a problem at all. Your probability of getting infected is already pretty low, and if it ever happens, you'll usually quickly notice it and take the required actions.
For the average joe, not so much, and their computer could run infected for days or weeks before they even start noticing there is a problem, and could have participated in deploying the virus...

Advocating ANY extreme (e.g. that everyone must use the same solution) is probably the most incorrect answer being given here.

Real advice acknowledges that different actions, or lack of actions, are correct in for some people, and wrong for other people. Decisions should be decided based on the circumstances, abilities, and desires of the individual or group, not by listening to whoever yells loudest on an internet forum.

Advocating ANY extreme (e.g. that everyone must use the same solution) is probably the most incorrect answer being given here.

Real advice acknowledges that different actions, or lack of actions, are correct in for some people, and wrong for other people. Decisions should be decided based on the circumstances, abilities, and desires of the individual or group, not by listening to whoever yells loudest on an internet forum.

Don't waste your breath. There's a few people on here who will insist they MUST need an updated OS no matter how often their position has been debunked with sources and expert opinions. They'll just vanish only to pop up in another thread spouting the same bunk again. It would be funny if it wasn't harmful advice that some novice might take seriously... giving advice that by having updated OS then you are safe, is just as a dangerous advice. cheers.

I am formatting my computer, I am struggling to decide on which windows to install.
Windows 10 does not ask the user whether to install updates or not.Let me know your views on which to choose a version of the window.

I have been using Win10 since it came out.
It was a bit unstable and buggy to start with but improved as time went on.
The problem with older OS is security updates no longer being supplied and/or support tailing off.

You can now hold off updates for a while in update settings.
I trust Win10 now and while Microchip MPLAB can tip it over the edge sometimes, everything else seems stable.

Quote from: pcdroid13 on July 06, 2019, 11:38:11 am

I am formatting my computer, I am struggling to decide on which windows to install.
Windows 10 does not ask the user whether to install updates or not.Let me know your views on which to choose a version of the window.

I have been using Win10 since it came out.
It was a bit unstable and buggy to start with but improved as time went on.
The problem with older OS is security updates no longer being supplied and/or support tailing off.

You can now hold off updates for a while in update settings.
I trust Win10 now and while Microchip MPLAB can tip it over the edge sometimes, everything else seems stable.

there are 2 schools of people, one is people who want to be top notched and ahead of everything, among them will give differing reasons, some believe because it is the safest. another school is people who prefer stability, nevermind safety, there's workaround for that. consider me the later. thats why i'm preparing the last install of the stable win7 to be ready for the end of the world. Cheers.

The prophet once said, there will be time when a fool is considered wise, and wise man is considered a fool.

Ps: with a correct bragging style and correct flag you can win, regardless of what actual knowledge is inside or what the actual motive. IT personnels will have a much easier job if you connect to their server with the latest OS just to cover their incompetence.

Btw if you set your OS correctly and installed appropriate guard sw, nobody is collecting your data, even in XP. Dont store your sensitive and family data in digital form. Yet encryption tech is not bound to certain OS, so you can install the latest tool if you have to. You are mocked as old age leftover community, well new tech to solve problems actually bring another problems with it.. the new tech geeks want less work and less memorizing things, being dependent to the tech. Well, as a 'wise' man here said, there is no security patch to ignorance.

The prophet once said, there will be time when a fool is considered wise, and wise man is considered a fool.

Ps: with a correct bragging style and correct flag you can win, regardless of what actual knowledge is inside or what the actual motive. IT personnels will have a much easier job if you connect to their server with the latest OS just to cover their incompetence.

Btw if you set your OS correctly and installed appropriate guard sw, nobody is collecting your data, even in XP. Dont store your sensitive and family data in digital form. Yet encryption tech is not bound to certain OS, so you can install the latest tool if you have to. You are mocked as old age leftover community, well new tech to solve problems actually bring another problems with it.. the new tech geeks want less work and less memorizing things, being dependent to the tech. Well, as a 'wise' man here said, there is no security patch to ignorance.

"Guard software" depends on the integrity of the OS. Even just using the computer to check your mail means the system and any successful attacker has access to a huge amount of potentially sensitive information. There is no patch for ignorance indeed.

Don't waste your breath. There's a few people on here who will insist they don't need an updated OS no matter how often their position has been debunked with sources and expert opinions. They'll just vanish only to pop up in another thread spouting the same bunk again. It would be funny if it wasn't harmful advice that some novice might take seriously.

Don't waste your breath. There's a few people on here who will insist they MUST need an updated OS no matter how often their position has been debunked with sources and expert opinions. They'll just vanish only to pop up in another thread spouting the same bunk again. It would be funny if it wasn't harmful advice that some novice might take seriously... giving advice that by having updated OS then you are safe, is just as a dangerous advice. cheers.

I know a not of cases where the upgrade for a different version is practically impossible:

 - CNC machines (some older models when I worked with a Japanese company doing electric and electronic maintenance were machines that used specific images of Windows 95/98. When I left the company they were starting to sell machines with Windows XP installed);
 - Lots of Chinese manufactures have equipment that simply don't have software made to work with newer versions of operative systems, and they are not going to get an upgrade, only if you buy the newer model of the machine;
 - 2G and 3G monitoring and configuration equipment, specially the ones from Nokia Siemens Networks. Their equipments were being programmed and managed via VMs with Windows XP and 2003 installed, no chance to update the software to monitor alarms or input configuration or change firmwares, specially the ones based in the DX200, IPA2800, NT HLR and  SURPASS hiS 700 - STP; The  Open Mobile Softswitch - COTS ATCA MSS and Open Multimedia Gateway - COTS ATCA MGW they were based in Linux, but were under final development and when they were deployed for testing I wasn't anymore working there. The Geoprobe ones from Tektronics were running in machines powered by Solaris:
 - I know some accountants in Portugal that use a version of an accounting software that runs on DOS. Yes you have to have a computer who supports DOS or Windows 98 max to run it. And that includes old matrix printers too (I hate that sun of a guns... Yes they are very effective for the job in question but Jesus they are loud as hell and a pain in the rear to find parts).
 - and a lot more...

Sometimes is cost forbidden or even not having a update path in some cases. I always used to think that way until I realized how some hardware are version dependent of old hardware or software, and even some times if it simply works and it's not broken why change for the sake of changing.

Not every company have the luxury of loosing productivity time and/or learning a new tool just for the sake of upgrading.

Could software developed for Linux solve that? Yes It could, that's true.

It's the solution? Yes. It will it change in some sectors and be a great alternative.

It's all in the hands of equipment manufactures for that to happen.

I know a not of cases where the upgrade for a different version is practically impossible:

 - CNC machines (some older models when I worked with a Japanese company doing electric and electronic maintenance were machines that used specific images of Windows 95/98. When I left the company they were starting to sell machines with Windows XP installed);
 - Lots of Chinese manufactures have equipment that simply don't have software made to work with newer versions of operative systems, and they are not going to get an upgrade, only if you buy the newer model of the machine;
 - 2G and 3G monitoring and configuration equipment, specially the ones from Nokia Siemens Networks. Their equipments were being programmed and managed via VMs with Windows XP and 2003 installed, no chance to update the software to monitor alarms or input configuration or change firmwares, specially the ones based in the DX200, IPA2800, NT HLR and  SURPASS hiS 700 - STP; The  Open Mobile Softswitch - COTS ATCA MSS and Open Multimedia Gateway - COTS ATCA MGW they were based in Linux, but were under final development and when they were deployed for testing I wasn't anymore working there. The Geoprobe ones from Tektronics were running in machines powered by Solaris:
 - I know some accountants in Portugal that use a version of an accounting software that runs on DOS. Yes you have to have a computer who supports DOS or Windows 98 max to run it. And that includes old matrix printers too (I hate that sun of a guns... Yes they are very effective for the job in question but Jesus they are loud as hell and a pain in the rear to find parts).
 - and a lot more...

Sometimes is cost forbidden or even not having a update path in some cases. I always used to think that way until I realized how some hardware are version dependent of old hardware or software, and even some times if it simply works and it's not broken why change for the sake of changing.

Not every company have the luxury of loosing productivity time and/or learning a new tool just for the sake of learning.

Could software developed for Linux solve that? Yes It could, that's true.

It's the solution? Yes. It will it change in some sectors and be a great alternative.

It's all in the hands of equipment manufactures for that to happen.

MRI and other hospital equipment are other examples of a specific configuration being supported by the manufacturer and upgrade paths simply not being available. Point is that these systems are both isolated and protected in other ways. They're kept well away from any network. There are examples of where this hasn't been the case and those ended up being rather expensive affairs and downtime of vital equipment.

Quote from: Black Phoenix on October 01, 2019, 09:42:07 am

CNC machines (some older models when I worked with a Japanese company doing electric and electronic maintenance were machines that used specific images of Windows 95/98. When I left the company they were starting to sell machines with Windows XP installed);

old and used LeCroy GHz DSO like SDA6000/DDA3000/SDA5005 also with XP in it. cant run on Win7 since some hardwares are not detected correctly, some still using 1.44MB diskette drive go figure. one may choose between this used machine and newest OS machine at the same spec except modern, priced 5 to 6 figures, they may suit themselves.

Yeah, the TDS5000 series was using Windows 2000. They were basically using a pretty classic PC motherboard inside (like micro-atx or something like that), but all the specific drivers and software was specifically written for Windows 2000 and wouldn't work on any more recent OS version. Updating the Windows 2000 to the latest SP would usually work though IIRC (but trying that would be 100% at your own risk.)

Sneaker net. The one network that will never die!

Sneaker net. The one network that will never die!

A Stuxnet type vector where the infection is carried in is always a possibility but those seem to be comparatively rare. When you start swapping media you are definitely more vulnerable than when fully isolated.

I have been on Win10 since it came out.
It was a bit unstable to start with but seems mostly ok now.
You can put off updates if you like.
I sell software and am shocked by how many people still use XP
You really need an up to date OS with anti virus software if you use the internet.
You can pick up Win10 pro keys for a few GBP on ebay so there is no excuse.

To be fair. I'm using windows 10 for a few months now. And they do learn, although slowly.

I've installed it by decrapifying in the audit mode, this gets you rid of all the recurring UWP apps.
The pro version allows you to delay feature updates for a year, so the "october update deletes your files" will probably go by me. And also patches can be delayed a month.
You still can only delay the inevitable rebooting for a maximum of 7 days though. So Windows 10, even LTSC which replaces embedded, is unsuitable for 24/7 operation!
Windows MUST HAVE a reboot once a month. There is only one other scenario I can think of that requires this, bugs.

Anyway, for a workstation this is fine.

Windows 10 still hides common settings in this ridiculous tablet mode. Getting to the network adapter overview is a pita, so much for many similar things.
The lack of decent shell inhibits effective productivity and is imho just a job creator.
However, they do try with powershell, but it's still not finished or the wrong time. As always with Microsoft products. Their product is wrong or they are doing it at the wrong time.

I wonder if the server product line is just as bad...

[...] I wonder if the [Microsoft] server product line is just as bad...

Server 2003 is actually quite good! 

Sounds like some driver spends too much time in an ISR.

I'm experiencing a weird thing on my Win 10 (that didn't happened back when I had 7): Sometimes my mouse cursor freezes for half a second or so, randomly and not linked to high RAM or CPU usage. I suspected it being a disk issue but even after changing my OS disk (upgraded my OS SSD, 256GB -> 500GB) it persists. It happens maybe twice a day. Haven't tried a fresh install though.

I have seen similar things in Win7.  In my case, it was a tray application that was misbehaving and blocking the whole PC intermittently.

Perhaps try stripping the system down by switching applications and services off one by one, until the problem stops - to identify the culprit.

Quote from: SilverSolder on December 02, 2019, 03:48:48 pm

Perhaps try stripping the system down by switching applications and services off one by one, until the problem stops - to identify the culprit.

Cannot do it in Windows 10. Whatever you turn off, will automatically turn back on

A bit like a bad virus.
 

^Winner, winner, chicken dinner!   

WSL is useless when you already have Linux machines and if you really want Windows bare metal you can run a proper Linux distro in a VM rather than use the WSL hack.

Quote from: NorthGuy on December 02, 2019, 04:39:44 pm

Quote from: SilverSolder on December 02, 2019, 03:48:48 pm

Perhaps try stripping the system down by switching applications and services off one by one, until the problem stops - to identify the culprit.

Cannot do it in Windows 10. Whatever you turn off, will automatically turn back on

A bit like a bad virus.
 

Also its now becoming ransomware, and own and take full control completely your PC, if its not constantly connected to the mother ship in Redmond. 

 -> Windows 10 users fume: Microsoft, where's our 'local account' option gone?

Quote from: james_s on December 03, 2019, 01:46:19 am

WSL is useless when you already have Linux machines and if you really want Windows bare metal you can run a proper Linux distro in a VM rather than use the WSL hack.

why is it useless if you already have linux machines? what major thing can a "proper Linux distro in a VM" do the WSL can't?

It's redundant, and it's a subset of Linux, a Linux distro in a VM is the real deal, you can have the entire graphical environment if you want, I've found no reason to want to run Linux software under Windows, Windows is the problem, the thing I've been working slowly to escape from for years.

What are you even talking about? There's nothing religious about it, WSL is redundant because I can already run a full Linux distro under Windows if I really want to. If I'm going to use Linux anyway then why put up with the hassles of Windows? I don't mind that WSL is there, it just does not seem like a compelling feature, I cannot figure out what it offers over what I already have. I run Windows only because I have a significant amount of software that requires Windows, I cannot think of any other reason to run that OS. If I'm going to use Linux software I can just run it on Linux and not have Windows making my blood pressure rise.

As a normal user Windows 10 does the job. You can block/delay updates if you like.

I had to connect two computers using a LAN.
There are bits and pieces all over the place in Win10 that need setting up to get it to work.
In this case Windows 10 is the worst software I have ever seen, very user unfriendly.
It seems like it was designed for techs to use, not normal users.

I got Win10 when it first came out and it was a bit unstable for a while but is much better now.
I have reinstalled Win10 about 10 times due to unrecoverable problems.

^I have Win 7 on all my PCs (about 7 of them), and it "just works"^TM.

I also have several old but good printers, which most likely are not supported in Windows 10.

I have hundreds of applications collected over the years, some of which most likely won't work well in Windows 10.

I have a big problem with all the surveillance capitalism going on,  I don't like entrusting my digital life to the cloud, and I don't like paying monthly for things that rightfully should be bought outright.

If I felt more comfortable about the above issues, I would have upgraded to Windows 10 a long time ago.

linux