Windows 7 vs Windows 10??

[SilverSolder]

Microsoft relies on trust.   We like Win7 because generally, we sorta kinda trust it, having gotten used to it.   Win10 on the other hand...

[NorthGuy]

You're also fully relying on Microsoft to only use the update system in the way they say they do and not to have any other systems or mechanisms in place.

I used to trust them in the past. But now I do not. They could've slipped something into my computer while I trusted them. But that's in the past. I cannot reverse past mistakes, I can only learn from them. You know: Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me.

[james_s]

I trusted their update system completely until they stooped to malware levels, coercion and trickery to aggressively push Win10. That trust evaporated overnight and I don't think they will ever be able to get it back.

[SiliconWizard]

Same here. My trust level was much higher until about the release of Win8.

All updates used to be documented, it was possible to install them individually. The documentation was reasonable, sometimes even surprisingly so (especially in the older days). When you were in doubt seeing what a specific update was dealing with, you could issue a quick search online with the KB number and would usually find many reviews for those that were buggy or problematic. Then you'd decide not to install it. Done. Sure something could have eluded users, but it proved effective and workable over the years. I don't think I personally ever had a single problem with Windows updates ever since Win2000.

On Windows 7, that was the case until they decided to release most updates as cumulative packages. That alone was preparing the end of Win7 and its separate updates.

It may all be about trust, but trust is not something you magically get from people(/users) just because you have a name. Trust is something you need to earn and work hard to keep.
So yeah, we used to trust MS more than we do now. That's not all random. There are objective reasons why we trusted MS and why we don't anymore.

Trusting someone/something without any reason is not trusting, it's just being a fool. (Or being in love, which sometimes makes us big fools )

[malagas_on_fire]

I just got the first pop-up warning upon starting Windows 7 today about end of support.

More information points you to a funny MS page: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-7-end-of-life-support-information?OCID=win7_app_omc_win

They don't just suggest to switch to Windows 10. They actually suggest to buy a new computer!

In the FAQ

 Can I upgrade Windows 7 to Windows 10 for free?
....
" You can purchase and download Windows 10 on your device today. Although, if your computer is more than three years old, it might be time to consider upgrading to a new device. We would love to help you find a computer that’s faster, safer, and delivers the new features Windows 10 has to offer before your current PC slows you down."
...

So windows 10 will slow down the  current Win7 PC ... good

[SiliconWizard]

So windows 10 will slow down the  current Win7 PC ... good

Funnily enough, they were saying almost the opposite of that when they first released Win10 and offered the official 1-year free update.
They released Win7 updates that were "checking" that your computer could run Win10 properly, but were pretty optimistic in their communication about compatibility. We could even often hear everywhere that Win10 was actually "faster" and using computer resources more efficiently than Win7.

Funny how things change. Of course MS makes the bulk of their money on OSs through OEM installs on new computers. So now that Win10 has a comfortable market share, they have all reasons to "force" people buying a new computer. They know that most people wouldn't want to buy a separate license.

Sure, not all Win7 users are in the same boat. You could be using Win7 with a 2009 computer. 10 years may be a good time to change computers, even though it may still be performing well enough. But you could also be using Win7 with a much more recent/or upgraded computer. The MS web page I linked to is very funny though I think. It's rather clear that it's targetted at people that are not computer-savvy.

It's also interesting to see how it insists on the merits of having SSDs. They should just bluntly admit that Win10 is almost constantly churning through your drives' data, and on HDDs, it makes things almost unbearable. I had installed Win10 on a very reasonable laptop, but with a HDD (albeit a WD black, so pretty fast), to evaluate it. Everytime I try it, it drives me crazy. There is constant HDD activity and things are often unresponsive. On an SSD, it would probably be a lot less noticeable... little buggers...

[Mr. Scram]

Windows 10 is slightly less resource hungry than Windows 7. That makes sense, as 10 is an optimised version of 7 under the skin. We've confirmed this across a variety of systems, so it's not just marketing speak. I can imagine that this may change in the future as the rolling version of 10 adds more features though it's not a given.

I'm not sure why people are looking to fault Windows 10 so hard but they sure are. Don't get me wrong, there's more than one thing to actually hate but those are rarely the things people are complaining about.

[rstofer]

Funny how things change. Of course MS makes the bulk of their money on OSs through OEM installs on new computers. So now that Win10 has a comfortable market share, they have all reasons to "force" people buying a new computer. They know that most people
It's also interesting to see how it insists on the merits of having SSDs. They should just bluntly admit that Win10 is almost constantly churning through your drives' data, and on HDDs, it makes things almost unbearable. I had installed Win10 on a very reasonable laptop, but with a HDD (albeit a WD black, so pretty fast), to evaluate it. Everytime I try it, it drives me crazy. There is constant HDD activity and things are often unresponsive. On an SSD, it would probably be a lot less noticeable... little buggers...

I have never seen this thrashing and I have Win 10 on at least 5 machines.  Some with HDD, some with SSD and I don't see anything like what you are describing.  And certainly not to the point that there is any perceived slowdown.

On the tower machine, there is a disk activity LED so I pretty much know when the disk is doing something.

In the end, none of the whining and sniveling will make any difference.  Users will have to migrate to Win 10 or they will use an unsupported version.  It's really that simple.  Buying a new machine, given current prices, isn't such a bad idea.

Over time people will migrate.  It's pretty much inevitable.

Are you sure the system isn't indexing the HDD for the Search feature?  Or maybe updating a Cloud account?

[free_electron]

i did an upgrade yesterday from win7 pro to win 10 pro.
during install it asked me what features i wanted to turn on or off ( telemetry, cortana speach ,and all kinds off 'send-to-microsoft' stuff.) i switched all off .
It retained all software and settings and the machine runs fine. it feels snappier than under win 7   (zbook 17 gen-2 which is 5 years old. these things are indestructible and basically portable workstations)

I deleted everything off the start panel ( like all the stupid games and other stuff ) and simply pinned my most commonly used programs to the taskbar and the lesser used ones tot he start panel.

It has not bugged me once. So it looks like the Pro version is the way to go.

[james_s]

It would be nice if turning all that stuff off actually turned it off but it doesn't, I'd say wait a few months and let the updates start rolling in before you give it a glowing review.

Any freshly installed OS feels snappy, people always talk about how a new OS feels faster than the old one, it's not because it's a new OS though, it's because it's a fresh clean install. A fresh install of Win7 feels snappy too.

[nctnico]

Correct. Over time Windows becomes slower and slower because it accumulates all kinds of crap trying to make the system faster    Switch to Linux and you will experience how snappy a OS can be for real. Even under heavy load a Linux system stays responsive. Try that with Windows.

[SilverSolder]

Correct. Over time Windows becomes slower and slower because it accumulates all kinds of crap trying to make the system faster    Switch to Linux and you will experience how snappy a OS can be for real. Even under heavy load a Linux system stays responsive. Try that with Windows.

I recently had reason to install Windows Server 2003 on a VM, on a quite powerful host.   Talk about snappy!  -  the mouse button didn't even finish its "click" before the job was done, with most operations. 

There's a lot to be said for simplicity...

[tautech]

i did an upgrade yesterday from win7 pro to win 10 pro.
during install it asked me what features i wanted to turn on or off ( telemetry, cortana speach ,and all kinds off 'send-to-microsoft' stuff.) i switched all off .
It retained all software and settings and the machine runs fine. it feels snappier than under win 7   (zbook 17 gen-2 which is 5 years old. these things are indestructible and basically portable workstations)

I deleted everything off the start panel ( like all the stupid games and other stuff ) and simply pinned my most commonly used programs to the taskbar and the lesser used ones tot he start panel.

It has not bugged me once. So it looks like the Pro version is the way to go.

Yep, I'm running Enterprise on a 3.7G I3 and it works just fine.
Had W7 for years and did a dual boot with 8.1 for a while to get used to its newer layout then jumped to 10 exclusively and it's getting better all the time. ON all the time and sleeping when not used and updates are becoming less frequent and if it does a reboot it seems to support reopening programs better now in that you have the option to continue where you last finished.

[NorthGuy]

I recently had reason to install Windows Server 2003 on a VM, on a quite powerful host.   Talk about snappy!  -  the mouse button didn't even finish its "click" before the job was done, with most operations. 

There's a lot to be said for simplicity...

Exactly.

I use lots of old software because it's faster, less buggy, and gives me more control.

If something was Ok in year 2000, it flies now. When I switch to Linux, I'll install Win2000 in a virtual box. It'll run all the software that I still have to run on Windows and it doesn't even require activation.

[james_s]

Same here, I still use Thunderbird from 2007, they ruined it in version 3 and usage gradually fell off until the whole product was killed. I use WinAmp 2.something from the early 2000's as a quick audio player, I use MS Office 2003 that I bought at the company store way back when I worked there and it's still great. I think with most products they steadily develop getting better and better and then at some point they are mature and there is nothing left to do but keep fixing it until it's broken.

This is not exclusive to software either, it happens with all kinds of consumer products and I largely blame marketing. The effort becomes focused on reinventing the wheel and making it look new and different rather than making it better. It already does everything it needs to do and then some, it already has a great interface, it already lasts a long time, so just start making arbitrary changes and cost reductions and pretty soon it sucks and/or looks just the same as all the other marketing study driven designs. Just look at modern car design for example:

[free_electron]

Correct. Over time Windows becomes slower and slower because it accumulates all kinds of crap trying to make the system faster    Switch to Linux and you will experience how snappy a OS can be for real. Even under heavy load a Linux system stays responsive. Try that with Windows.

I'll switch to linux the day all the stuff i use daily runs on it natively. Hopefully that day will never come , so i'm good.

[edy]

It all depends on your use-case scenario, obviously there is no clear answer until we know more about your specific purposes, the environment the machine will be used in and what you plan on doing with it down the road. But I will share with you my experience doing a major office upgrade from Windows XP on a bunch of old computers (circa 2009) and that used a bunch of proprietary imaging gear drivers that were made by companies who have since disappeared and no longer update or support the equipment (which cost me tens-of-thousands of dollars to buy!!!).

WIN-XP CATASTROPHE:

I was running WinXP in a networked office environment on at least 6 machines tied to a Windows Server. Keep in mind all this was installed back in 2008-2009 or so, I can't remember the exact year, but it has been a decade for sure or perhaps more. I decided to keep with this system up until now because things worked and I did not want to face any issues upgrading, as there were a lot of proprietary specialized imaging systems attached that use special USB drivers that were made only for WinXP.

Obviously WinXP support ended years ago, so I always had that annoying RED popup in the corner about End-Of-Support. Windows Defender wouldn't run, blah blah blah.... I was taking things into my own hands, living dangerously! And so I dreaded the upgrade process and procrastinated because of the cost and down-time involved. But I knew ONE DAY I would have to upgrade.

ARMAGEDDON:

So the DAY finally came crashing down on me at the end of June when there was an update in a critical piece of software that my office needed to communicate with insurance-related servers (to check certain things). The old communications protocol for that software was being shuttered and you had NO CHOICE but to use a newer version that needed to communicate using the new protocol, and that new version DID NOT RUN on WIN XP, PERIOD! It also had a few .NET dependencies and so on, all of which were not able to run on WIN XP. This was a *critical* need for my office to run and would have been a major pain if we didn't have it available to customer service. Therefore, it was time to upgrade!

First thing I did was buy a Win10 Pro machine (refurbed) and set it to run on SMB1 for the time being, because it needed to be able to communicate with the server and all the other WinXP machines in the office network. That Win10 machine received the critical software (for insurance) update and WHAM BAM I was able to at least install the new protocol software on there to keep functioning.    That took me out of critical situation for the moment.

Next, I started migrating my WinXP machines to Win10 Pro. Yes! THE SAME MACHINES that I bought over 10 years ago, nothing special, I pulled out the hard drives (just in case I didn't want to write over my stuff if I had to revert) and bought some cheap SSD's. I installed Win10 64-bit on most of my computers, from a Win10 USB-key I made a while back, and it boots and runs smoothly! At least for the software I use in the office, it does not require "gaming" level graphics or anything like that. I'm much happier being on Win10. I used my Win7 sticker info either from some other computers I have and lo-and-behold, it installed and activated and did not complain a bit!

The machines that plugged into the special imaging proprietary hardware gear (that used WinXP-era drivers) had to have Win10 32-bit installed on them. So I made myself another USB key with Win10 32-bit (downloaded the ISO from Microsoft) and proceeded to install it no problem. The drivers also installed and it took me a few tries and some hair-pulling to get them to work, because at first Win10 recognized the device based on the generic controller chip that was in it. I had to keep going into Device Manager and finding a way to delete or inactivate it quickly and letting my driver install get in first, otherwise it would keep trying to re-register it using a Win10 driver. Anyways, it worked! 

THE AFTERMATH:

Now the entire office is upgraded to Win10, it still runs all the software that I had running on my WinXP machines... the same proprietary WinXP-era software (of which there is no good upgrade and that I need) is running fine. I also installed my old Microsoft Office PRO that I was using back on my WinXP machines... I know these can be vulnerable but I prefer not to buy MS Office again, and anyways I will probably migrate over to LibreOffice. I also will need to flip over to SMB2 now that the entire office is Win10... that will patch up another possible security hole.

One piece of software that I could NOT find an update to that works on Win10 has to do with managing the VOIP system (TalkSwitch) that runs the telephones in the office. The software that lets me configure the VOIP box is no longer available, the old version does not run on Win10 and it was using a ton of Java code, and the Java runtime it depends on cannot be installed on Win10. I tried whatever I could, even registering on Java as a tested to be able to grab older Java runtimes and no matter what I did, the software gave an error. So the solution? I keep one WinXP machine still available but OFF in the backroom, so that if I ever need to configure the TalkSwitch (now Fortinet) VOIP box I plug it into the network and bring up the software and can make changes. Otherwise, that machine is unplugged/dormant.

MORAL OF THE STORY...

Win10 is not so bad as people think. I dreaded the upgrade, but it turns out even on my 10+ year old machines I was able to migrate and make old WinXP-era software work, even drivers that would have been impossible to update (and the equipment costs tens-of-thousands of dollars)... there was no way I was going to upgrade my hardware because of some stupid drivers. The solution was to use Win10 32-bit! I had a few issues with configuring 2-screen set ups but that was my fault because I didn't know about the Windows-Logo-key-P option to configure and switch screens. Also there was a delay in Windows 10 recognizing the NVidia graphics so it took 5 minutes after boot for it to actually install and let me configure it once and for all, and that was confusing because in those first 5 minutes I was scrambling to try to figure out why my video card is buggered up.

NOW WHAT DO I USE AT HOME?

I'm using Linux for all my private use computers, laptops, etc. One of my kids has a Win7 machine that he plays lots of games on, like Roblox for example.... try as I might, I can't get that to work on Linux/WINE. I did get many of his games to work on my Linux machine (WINE) but Roblox and a few others just don't work. So he stays with Win7 to play games, but it is a dual-boot so it has Linux on it as well, and everybody else in the house is using Linux (some flavour of Ubuntu although I've got many distros that I play around with).

IN CONCLUSION...

I think you should go to Win10 Pro and register it using a Win7 sticker, which Microsoft still appears to be honouring. If you are not ready to drop Microsoft altogether (and enter Linux-land) then that will be your best option. Unless you plan on being disconnected from the internet, you will face the same issues I had with WinXP in a few years. At some point you *WILL* need to move on with your life.

I would use the PRO version, and when I installed Win10 I chose "NO" to all of their extra features like Cortana, customized ads, blah blah blah. Everything was "NO" and also I did NOT register with a Microsoft account. Just set it up with a local account and don't forget your password. That way the machine is not tied to any online account. That can be harder later with regards to licensing and so on, migrating, etc. As you saw in my case, I was able to use my old computers (which I thought for sure would choke) to run Win10 smoothly, no problem, and I managed to save myself from upgrading 5-figure $$$ equipment because 32-bit Win10 still could handle WinXP-era drivers. So I see no good reason to stick to Win7 if you are just careful at how you install and properly version your Win10 installation. And the updates can be throttled down and controlled somewhat if you know what you are doing. Meanwhile, try to see if you can function in Linux and prepare yourself a machine or dual-booted install, so if Microsoft does anything crazy in the future you have a lifeboat to jump into. 

[Jeroen3]

Haha, sometimes a hard no from a dependent company is required to invoke the upgrade path with the management....

For the obscure viop tool: You can try to run XP Lite, it's 200 mb in size (there are iso's floating around) in an Virtual machine, for those special application.
I have my Civic's service manual in it, since that only works with IE 6, and it's works amazing.
I also prepared a Win 98 VM for some ancient drawing software.

Just a word of caution on dual boot windows 10, the bootloader (grub) may be overwritten during an update. Make sure you have a procedure to recover from this. The bootloader from Windows 10 is really strange, as it won't even survive a disk clone anymore.

Anyway, I'm due for a new work laptop. I'll see what the company will do with the 3 laptops still running 7 next January. When I see how much simple USB compatibility problems my coworker has with his brand new HP laptop, I fear many lost hours.

[SiliconWizard]

The bootloader from Windows 10 is really strange, as it won't even survive a disk clone anymore.

Really? So you can't actually clone disks now? Does changing disks involve a complete reinstall everytime?

[HoracioDos]

Hi
I resurrected an HP Pavilion DV4 notebook last weekend (2Ghz Dual core - 4GB RAM - 250Gb SSD - Win7) I was able to upgrade to Win10 using Windows Media creation tool. I thought that all options were closed two years ago but this one worked and now I have a digital licence. Please forgive me If this situation is too obvious for those who know better.
Coming back to the subject, I was surprised about Win10 performance in this hardware. It is far better than before. I also installed a light linux distro in dual boot. It's rock solid for me and It runs perfect.
Nowadays, I don't know how smart is to complain about Win10 features, updates scheme or telemetry and data collection. I'm not in favor, but does anybody know about any real case of data stealing?
If you have enough hardware I think best option is to install any linux flavour you like most and set a Win10 VM for any absolutely necessary application.

[james_s]

It's a fresh clean install, of course the performance is great. The hardware requirements of Win10 are not an issue, if Win7 runs fast on a system then Win10 will run fast, that's not the problem.

The problem is that Win10 is a train wreck, the UI is fugly and inconsistent, it is buggy and the forced updates mean a constant stream of interruptions and new bugs, it is not just an OS but is primarily a platform for monetization and pushing of their other services. I've never used such a user-hostile OS and I'm so glad to be free of it now.

[HoracioDos]

It's a fresh clean install, of course the performance is great.

Most apps remained. It is not a fresh and clean install.

... the UI is fugly and inconsistent, it is buggy and the forced updates mean a constant stream of interruptions and new bugs, it is not just an OS but is primarily a platform for monetization and pushing of their other services. I've never used such a user-hostile OS and I'm so glad to be free of it now.

I totally agree about UI. You can delay updates now for 7 days with 1903 built. I don't know what is worst for the whole industry, forced updates vs no updates at all. (Most people didn't care about updates) Now Microsoft sells some sort of operating system service (I don't know to call it)  that allows you to run a computer programs in your own hardware but in the way that Microsoft wants. You can't customize this service for your needs. We are not buying OS license any more and we can't use our hardware or apps as we like or need.

[james_s]

I'm a big proponent of personal responsibility. If you don't update and your system gets infected, that is your problem. I don't update (anymore) because I have been burned multiple times and no longer trust the updates but it is my responsibility to secure my systems. Threats are always going to be out there but most of it is overblown FUD. I've cleaned up infected systems for people dozens of times over the years and in literally every single example I can recall, the infection happened because someone installed something sketchy. I don't think I have ever encountered a PC that was infected via some kind of exploit even once, ever.

Note that I'm referring to *personal* computers, not outward facing servers that are directly exposed to the internet, those obviously need to be patched regularly.

[MT]

I recently rescued a very nice highend Toshiba laptop from Win10 when its user had enough of the irritating moronic UI
and spying. All i did was to boot the laptop via its Toshiba inbuilt boot mode in which you press a FN key who said: Factory Win7 install! Warning! Will erase everything on Hard Disk. Owner of laptop now very pleased again.

[SiliconWizard]

I'm a big proponent of personal responsibility. If you don't update and your system gets infected, that is your problem.

So am I.
The only problem with that is that it may have consequences not just for you, but for others as well. An "infected" OS can for instance in turn become part of a virus deployment system.
If you're computer-savvy enough, it's usually not a problem at all. Your probability of getting infected is already pretty low, and if it ever happens, you'll usually quickly notice it and take the required actions.
For the average joe, not so much, and their computer could run infected for days or weeks before they even start noticing there is a problem, and could have participated in deploying the virus...