Author Topic: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!  (Read 10981 times)

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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2019, 03:14:16 pm »
Everything is a service and less and less is owned. Considering many companies have been struggling and now found a course that's making them momey you definitely shouldn't expect it to change.

Yes. Already talked about that, but to me this trend looks like we would tend towards the reduction, and maybe over time even to the abolition of private property. Looks like a natural long-term consequence of owning less and less stuff you use.

And funnily enough, what seems to have triggered this trend, excessive capitalism, may thus eventually yield a result that once was the enemy of capitalism.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2019, 04:30:11 pm »
We are going back to the days where people used to rent colour television sets, because they were too expensive for the average family to buy...   while the days of shrink wrapped software are disappearing.

It is definitely possible to put a business case together for "renting" or subscribing to software rather than buying,  just like it can make sense to rent or lease rather than buy a car...   but it seems that software companies prefer not to give us the option to buy without a fight.

 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2019, 04:33:40 pm »
It's easier to control what people can and cannot do with your product if people don't own it.
 

Online wraper

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2019, 04:59:31 pm »
I just checked my Task Scheduler and found that defragging was enabled...  (Win 7 with SSD)

This might happen if you had a magnetic drive originally, then upgraded to SSD? 

Now disabled!  thanks to OP for bringing this up.
It being enabled as such in task scheduler does not mean it will actually run on particular drive or any of drives at all.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 05:06:40 pm by wraper »
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2019, 05:18:01 pm »
It's easier to control what people can and cannot do with your product if people don't own it.

Of course. Ownership is not just an abstract notion to make you feel good about yourself and what you possess (which is often what you are being told when people want to convince you that renting is just as good). It has obvious legal consequences. The owner decides unilaterally what you can and cannot do with the product. Your only freedom, if you don't agree with the terms, is to stop using it. Not exactly what I call freedom.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2019, 05:28:32 pm »
It's easier to control what people can and cannot do with your product if people don't own it.

Of course. Ownership is not just an abstract notion to make you feel good about yourself and what you possess (which is often what you are being told when people want to convince you that renting is just as good). It has obvious legal consequences. The owner decides unilaterally what you can and cannot do with the product. Your only freedom, if you don't agree with the terms, is to stop using it. Not exactly what I call freedom.
You don't own any software you buy. Be it one time cost, subscription, whatever. Fully offline thing or based on cloud.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2019, 05:49:02 pm »
You don't own any software you buy. Be it one time cost, subscription, whatever. Fully offline thing or based on cloud.
That's the official line of those with interests, but legal reality shows it's not that clear-cut. EU courts have decided differently and First Sale doctrine in the US suggests otherwise too, although US companies have so far carefully avoided testing this in court. They can't bully people into submission when courts have explicitly decided otherwise. Not being allowed to reproduce a work isn't the same as not being allowed to modify it when you own a copy. The EU court ruling also makes it obvious there's a massive difference between the value of the traditional "selling copies" model and the subscription model companies are now transitioning to. There's a huge difference in value of what's in the books and companies have been trying to empty our pockets without us noticing by switching one for the other and pretending it's the same.

https://www.publicknowledge.org/news-blog/blogs/eu-court-when-you-buy-software-you-own-it
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2019, 08:51:29 pm »
Absolutely.

Besides, those were general considerations regarding ownership vs rental. It's easier to understand with material goods. For instance, it's very easy to understand the difference between renting and owning a car. When you own it, as long as it still works and as long as the government hasn't decided it contained something that made it illegal (such as safety or pollution criterions), you can drive it. The manufacturer can't decide at any point on its own that you can't drive it anymore. If you rent it, it absolutely can. A rental agreement may contain a minimum period of guaranteed service, but it's usually always limited. You get the idea.

Software is a bit of a different beast. It's immaterial. Ownership is much less obvious to understand.

There's of course the question of the right to reproduce it as Mr. Scram mentioned.
But that's not the only thing. With software, when you buy a license, what you "own" is the right to use it. The traditional sales model is that once you buy a license of some software, you have a right to use it according to the EULA for as long as you can run it on working hardware. Sure you may only get future updates/fixes for a limited amount of time, and/or for an additional cost, but you're still allowed to run the software you bought forever as long as you can make it run. Some people use very old software this way on either old machines or virtual machines.

With a subscription model, this is absolutely not the case. The company may decide to change the rules completely every time you have to renew your subscription. You may not be able to use the software any more even when you're willing to shell out the cash. It may stop working altogether if the company goes bankrupt as the software may require constant or at least regular access to their servers to still function. This is a huge difference, and so in that aspect, it's not that different from owning something material.
 

Online RoGeorge

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2019, 10:10:32 pm »
Break the cat and went full Linux a few months ago, almost a year now.  No regrets.  With time, the no regrets turned into poor joy.  Since then, can only smile at these kind of annoyances described here.

Was quite a struggle at first, not any more.  The only thing I still regret now is why I didn't do that 5 or 10 years ago.   ^-^

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2019, 03:03:31 am »

If you have wide and deep experience with Windows and non trivial Windows based applications, it is a daunting task to give it all up and start over on Linux and/or Apple. These alternatives are probably best seen additional tools for the toolbox rather than a replacement in such cases.
 

Offline GlennSpriggTopic starter

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2019, 11:05:41 am »
All good points...  Though I also hate Win-10. Just keeping it simple. . . . . . .

Yes, the 'drive' these days is towards 'Cloud-Based' software, & Online 'Browser-Based' software.
I HATE both of those, although I understand how the 'cloud' may help, across multiple devices.
And I also hate the (default!) crappy looking block shaped graphics of it's main screen interface.

To ME, their main reasons for all that is this...   I think their main push is to get away from the traditional
PC as we know it, and gear everything towards Touch Screen Tablets, and the like.  (So common now).
And to run the majority of software on them, like 'Dumb Terminals' used to be. And they favor the crappy
screen usage, to facilitate easy 'finger' operation of the devices. Although my latest 'laptop' is touch-
sensitive, and can fold down like a Tablet, if required, when at home or at a desk, I want to use my
MOUSE!!, and linked to a Graphics Pad/Pen if/when required. I just don't want/need this change!

I guess some people with old 'Brick' phones, or the cheap early 'Nokia's, scoffed at the need for todays
'Smart-Phones', although today, virtually NO-ONE is without one !!, and knows their power.
However, I still don't trust them, with what they are really doing "under the bonnet". ('Hood', haha...)
Diagonal of 1x1 square = Root-2. Ok.
Diagonal of 1x1x1 cube = Root-3 !!!  Beautiful !!
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2019, 12:43:03 pm »
Break the cat and went full Linux a few months ago, almost a year now.  No regrets.  With time, the no regrets turned into poor joy.  Since then, can only smile at these kind of annoyances described here.

Was quite a struggle at first, not any more.  The only thing I still regret now is why I didn't do that 5 or 10 years ago.   ^-^

You exactly describe my experience.


If you have wide and deep experience with Windows and non trivial Windows based applications, it is a daunting task to give it all up and start over on Linux and/or Apple. These alternatives are probably best seen additional tools for the toolbox rather than a replacement in such cases.

I have to disagree. Prior to about a few years ago, I *only* knew Windows. I have used just about every Windows and MS-DOS version there is. I grew up learning Windows networking, NT, Active Directory etc... I don't miss any of it.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 12:46:21 pm by Halcyon »
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2019, 01:03:33 pm »
By the way Halcyon, what distro you are using, what distros you tried and for what you are using (description of the use).

I'm saying that because I'm also probably in the move to Linux soon but the only that I get comfortable is the RPM ones (RedHat Based CentOS and Fedora Workstation).
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2019, 06:20:12 pm »
Prior to about a few years ago, I *only* knew Windows. [...] I don't miss any of it.

That is a judgement call that each of us has to make.

When your Windows Apps directory has more than 500 items, collected and learned over 30 years, representing an investment of years of labor (finding, learning, and overcoming the inevitable limitations of a library of applications)....    the cost of giving all that up is very large, and very real.

 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2019, 01:03:27 am »
By the way Halcyon, what distro you are using, what distros you tried and for what you are using (description of the use).

Currently, I run Fedora Workstation on my main desktop and both FreeBSD and Ubuntu Server on some of my servers.

For workstation use, I have previously tried Mint, Ubuntu Desktop and CentOS.

Prior to about a few years ago, I *only* knew Windows. [...] I don't miss any of it.

That is a judgement call that each of us has to make.

When your Windows Apps directory has more than 500 items, collected and learned over 30 years, representing an investment of years of labor (finding, learning, and overcoming the inevitable limitations of a library of applications)....    the cost of giving all that up is very large, and very real.

Absolutely, but don't forget, much of it runs on Linux, either via something like WINE or you have genuine Linux versions of the same software.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 01:05:35 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2019, 11:15:22 am »
"It runs via WINE" sounds like replacing one problem with another, especially when you take the more complex software suites into account.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2019, 04:51:22 pm »
Prior to about a few years ago, I *only* knew Windows. [...] I don't miss any of it.

That is a judgement call that each of us has to make.

When your Windows Apps directory has more than 500 items, collected and learned over 30 years, representing an investment of years of labor (finding, learning, and overcoming the inevitable limitations of a library of applications)....    the cost of giving all that up is very large, and very real.
That is true but you can run these applications just fine in a VM running Windows. And the best part is that when (not if) Windows starts to act up you can roll the VM back to a last-known-good snapshot and get Windows to behave in a matter of seconds. That is a win-win.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2019, 09:54:17 pm »
[...] you can run these applications just fine in a VM running Windows. [...]

That is absolutely true and I already do that.  However;  I have noticed that some graphics intensive applications are not completely happy inside a VM (in this case, VirtualBox).

I can definitely envision switching to Linux as the host operating system if Windows 10 fails on too many fronts.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2019, 12:19:01 am »
Not wanting to deal with Windows so now dealing with Windows, Linux and virtualisation doesn't sound like an improvement either. Even when taking rollback into account, which can be kind of done in other ways.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2019, 02:21:41 am »

Virtualization has all kinds of use cases so is something you should know how to do anyway.

As Microsoft, Apple, Google get ever more cloud based, perhaps Linux will one day be the only remaining truly  "local" possibility?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2019, 03:44:19 am »
Virtualization has all kinds of use cases so is something you should know how to do anyway.

As Microsoft, Apple, Google get ever more cloud based, perhaps Linux will one day be the only remaining truly  "local" possibility?
Doing it isn't the problem. Complicating matters in an attemp to uncomplicate them is. Virtualisation or  compatibility layers aren't rocket science, but they add layers of complexity and hassle. Dealing with Windows' peculiarities isn't really more complicated.
 

Offline TheNewLab

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2019, 05:44:21 am »
So many good points here, where do I start?

Maybe what I am doing. I started using Linux in 2012. Did not stop using MaCOSX.  added windows 7 for Electronics apps;. (some work great with WINE, others do not) The guy at CupofLinux says he can get anything to work on WINE. 
Which version of Linux. That is your decision. There are 3 major base directions, then a mass of specific choices occur down-line. Live CD/DVDs are a great place to try out different flavors (distros). About all can be installed on a thumb drive and tried out. Have used an Linux OS on a thumb drive for easy access to any computer I run into and work on.

Now, Linux is not the end all, be all. As I said, I still use MacOSX, and windows. using WINE and VM, I use Oracle's version..no reason why.
I understand,  not wanting to learn new apps, and finding replacements.
 I have no time for even the constant upgrading and learning the constant changes. learning costs time, costs money..SO, I have "locked" or frozen" a number OS's. the machines are set up with everything I use, and all their settings. I then use Linux to go online...thus up-to-date and current security updates. Run a Linux distro in VM, then you have the best of both worlds.

Too long here..
I think that today it does not matter so much. If you have been running Photoshop on Windows for 30 years and don't want to change. No problem. "freeze" that OS with all the apps, and settings and Linux for online, and any new uses you may have. (I also run Linux and Win/Apple on separate Drives or partitions. I may have to reboot in these instances but some cases it is worth the hassle.

One thing that really, really irritates me,  Having to redo the user dictionary in word applications. another reason I do what I do.
There are so many new features on established applications, as they grow and expend, that I just do not need.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: "Windows Experience" KILL !!!
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2019, 06:53:21 pm »

Doing it [virtualization] isn't the problem. Complicating matters in an attemp to uncomplicate them is. Virtualisation or  compatibility layers aren't rocket science, but they add layers of complexity and hassle. Dealing with Windows' peculiarities isn't really more complicated.

Totally agree.  Virtualization is a good solution for many use cases,  but if none of those use cases apply to you, then you shouldn't use it.

One such use case is running obsolete OS instances for whatever reason (not all reasons for doing that are bad). 

The "correct" solution to many problems turns out to be quite dependent on the circumstances/environment, as the evolution of life itself shows.
 


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