Neoden 4 pick and place

[uncle_bob]

@sedelman, In  short i am a dissapointed user of LS60V.
I can tell anything about that machine if someone ask, because i have repaired it by myself four times already.
Anyway, i bought it when the company name is still APS Novastar not DDM.

@uncle_bob, well that is not on my case , i will gladly swap my LS60V with two fully configured N4 if anyone interested... 

-ichan

Hi

As I said ... everybody has a different situation. In fact, our experience with the "small line" idea has not been 100% roses.

Bob

[sedelman]

@Ichan: what are you expecting from the Neoden4 that will be better than the LS60V? Do you have experience with a Neoden4 that makes it stand out over the LS60V? If I understand correctly, there are only two people in this thread who own a Neoden4 and they have been mostly silent about their successes running production with the machine.

In my opinion, this machine still needs to be proven and it's going to take more than a carefully staged Youtube video (horrible translation aside) from Neoden to convince me that the thing can actually run continuous production without hand holding.

Let's be clear, I want Neoden4 to be a winner because I also need a professional PnP for US $10K, so I appeal to the owners of the Neoden4 in this thread, please post a video of a successful production run so we can all get warm fuzzies that this machine can actually deliver.

[TheSteve]

Last production run the Neoden 4 I have access to dropped two FTDI chips but it didn't notice. As the one who has to do the rework when it screws up I'll say it still has potential but if it was my money, I wouldn't buy one.

[mrpackethead]

Last production run the Neoden 4 I have access to dropped two FTDI chips but it didn't notice. As the one who has to do the rework when it screws up I'll say it still has potential but if it was my money, I wouldn't buy one.

Well, that its pretty much sums it up.  And teaches you right or using FTDI Destroy the planet chips.

[rx8pilot]

In my opinion, this machine still needs to be proven and it's going to take more than a carefully staged Youtube video (horrible translation aside) from Neoden to convince me that the thing can actually run continuous production without hand holding.

The chances seem slim that you can walk away from this thing while running any time soon.

Let's be clear, I want Neoden4 to be a winner because I also need a professional PnP for US $10K......

Maybe, just maybe it could be a pro-sumer level. For a machine to really stand up to a professional environment it has to be super solid in all respects. From what I have seen and heard so far, this thing seems like a good step up from hand placing prototypes and pilot runs, but not something I would count on for a living.

Last production run the Neoden 4 I have access to dropped two FTDI chips but it didn't notice. As the one who has to do the rework when it screws up I'll say it still has potential but if it was my money, I wouldn't buy one.

As old as my machine is, I doesn't drop parts, even the big heavy ones. If it did, it has two sensors that would stop and alarm the machine. The old machine seems like it saved me from the Neoden which I was planning to buy just before I found mine. I should call it the Millennium Falcon since it looks like a hunk of junk but can do the Kessel PCB in 12 minutes without missing anything. I have <$10k in it so far.

[TheSteve]

Last production run the Neoden 4 I have access to dropped two FTDI chips but it didn't notice. As the one who has to do the rework when it screws up I'll say it still has potential but if it was my money, I wouldn't buy one.

Well, that its pretty much sums it up.  And teaches you right or using FTDI Destroy the planet chips.

Geeze, take your FTDI battle somewhere else.

[TheSteve]

In my opinion, this machine still needs to be proven and it's going to take more than a carefully staged Youtube video (horrible translation aside) from Neoden to convince me that the thing can actually run continuous production without hand holding.

The chances seem slim that you can walk away from this thing while running any time soon.

Let's be clear, I want Neoden4 to be a winner because I also need a professional PnP for US $10K......

Maybe, just maybe it could be a pro-sumer level. For a machine to really stand up to a professional environment it has to be super solid in all respects. From what I have seen and heard so far, this thing seems like a good step up from hand placing prototypes and pilot runs, but not something I would count on for a living.

Last production run the Neoden 4 I have access to dropped two FTDI chips but it didn't notice. As the one who has to do the rework when it screws up I'll say it still has potential but if it was my money, I wouldn't buy one.

As old as my machine is, I doesn't drop parts, even the big heavy ones. If it did, it has two sensors that would stop and alarm the machine. The old machine seems like it saved me from the Neoden which I was planning to buy just before I found mine. I should call it the Millennium Falcon since it looks like a hunk of junk but can do the Kessel PCB in 12 minutes without missing anything. I have <$10k in it so far.

The Juki 570L that I used before the Neoden 4 was actually an amazing machine all things considered. It had some quirks too but was 1000 times the machine the Neoden will ever be. However it wouldn't fit through a doorway, meaning it needed warehouse/garage space which was a long term problem for us.

For some use cases the Neodon 4 will work great I am sure. And it will continue to get used to build boards but I don't have too much faith in it and know it will lead to much more rework.

[Ichan]

@Ichan: what are you expecting from the Neoden4 that will be better than the LS60V? Do you have experience with a Neoden4 that makes it stand out over the LS60V?

I am expecting much higher output rate at least double than the current one i have. No, what i know is about the same with most people in here - from their web pages, youtube videos, and this thread.

I do not want to talk much about LS60V, in summary mine is a far from perfect machine: it is slow, the feeders are sucks jams very often, dropping components often, vision not working very well, and the most important i got zero support from the maker.

I follow and read this thread more than once from page 1, what i found is most of the problems are about getting used to the "strange" workflow of the software, and the parameters / configuration which are not properly configured. All people says great things about the mechanical, that is a significant positive point for me.

When i finally decide to buy it, i understand that i have to accept the limitation and the learning curve wont be short. My learning curve with the LS60V was not short either - need sometime to understand all the parameters and set's them up properly. The software and user manual is not very good too, the software also run on windows xp and developed using Visual Basic 6.

Hope i will win this bet, but i have a good feeling because my expectation is not very high.

-ichan

[rwb]

Ichan I'm looking forward to seeing how this all plays out for you.

Hope you post up lots of photos and video 

We all want the Neoden to be a workable solution.

[uncle_bob]

..... My learning curve with the LS60V was not short either - need sometime to understand all the parameters and set's them up properly. The software and user manual is not very good too, the software also run on windows xp and developed using Visual Basic 6.

-ichan

Hi

That is a fairly important point on some of these machines. One of the reasons we have taken gear off-line has been the inability to do practical IT on a custom DOS / WFWG 3.11 / ISA / EISA PC. It may be software related. Often it's custom interface board related. When the last PC bites the dust, the machine goes on the auction block. This is not in any way unique to pick and place gear. We've seen it with a wide range of things that depend on a PC to keep them going. The machine its self still works ok, it's simply impractical to keep the "other half" of it working.

Good news or bad news? That depends on your viewpoint. If cobbling up a 1980's motherboard and keeping it running is a good use of your time, it's a way to get some fine old gear cheap. If keeping a stock of old computer parts around isn't in your game plan .. not such a good thing.

Bob

[rx8pilot]

The PC issue is what will kill my machine but it's probably quite a few years off. It's on XP now but can go up to Windows 7. The vision system, stepper drives, and various interface stuff is going to be time consuming and/or expensive to repair if it goes.

I am keeping my eyes open for logical replacement options for the dark day when mine goes the the museum.

[mikeselectricstuff]

There is a pretty much infinite supply of old PCs of all vintages, so I don't think this is a major issue. At least anything Win98 onwards supports USB media, which isn't going away any time soon.
Old DOS systems may have some connectivity issues, what with floppy drives going away, and finding a DOS compatible hard disk may at least involve some fiddling around.

[rx8pilot]

The problem is that they just progressively get more fiddly over time. Its less about being impossible and more about being time effective for me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[uncle_bob]

There is a pretty much infinite supply of old PCs of all vintages, so I don't think this is a major issue. At least anything Win98 onwards supports USB media, which isn't going away any time soon.
Old DOS systems may have some connectivity issues, what with floppy drives going away, and finding a DOS compatible hard disk may at least involve some fiddling around.

Hi

Once you find that the spec includes multiple EISA sockets (for the custom cards) plus a floppy plus an ISA disk and a few other weird bits ... the supply is far from infinite.  In some cases the last machine that had the "right" combo last shipped 30 years ago. We had one that the cards *only* would work on a "Genuine" IBM PC-AT. Anything past that ... not going to work.

Consider that you want a machine that will hold up in constant service. A quick lash up of flakey parts isn't going to do the job.

Bob

[Ichan]

I just got confirmation from Tony of Neoden that the machine will be shipped today... woohoo.. 

From their place in Hangzhou it will be go to Shenzhen first then fly to my place, the most longer time usually on customs clearance - if anything goes smooth i should receive it within two weeks.

Tony also send me the user manual and a sample of working file, i will gonna start to prepare the job for the machine.

As promised, i will share many things about this... 

-ichan

[rwb]

@ichan  I'm Excited for you! What will be the finest pitch parts you plan on placing?

[Ichan]

The finest part has 0.5 mm pitch, they are STCC5021 and MAX3421. There are some SOT23 transistor which usually rather hard to be pick and placed accurately, Resistors and Capacitors are large all in 1206 package.

I will post component list and the pcb picture soon.

-ichan

[rwb]

Have you talked to Tony at Neoden about the software issues the guys on this thread are having? Has he read this thread?

[thommo]

Yes - very exciting news Ichan. We are all behind you and wish you success and a speedy bring-up of the machine into service.

As RWB has also suggested ...

I have listed just 4 very good questions that you could ask Tony from Neoden at this point in time. I am absolutely certain that his response would be of much interest to a very large number of current users, and potential buyers.

1. When do they intend releasing an update to the Software Application?
2. What bug fixes does it deal with [in detail]?
3. What feature modifications and new features, if any, does it include [in detail]?
4. When will Neoden address the very many issues identified in this forum from current customers, and by what means?

Please let him know that he has a 'number of potential buyers' also awaiting his detailed response to these few questions - myself included. Likewise, I think he should know that a disappointing, or worse still, no response, will most likely drive this potential market to an alternate option [which could include new competition to Neoden].

This is a terrific opportunity for Neoden to build some real credibility in what at best is currently a very (understandably) skeptical market.

Thanks Ichan.

I just got confirmation from Tony of Neoden that the machine will be shipped today... woohoo.. 
Tony also send me the user manual and a sample of working file, i will gonna start to prepare the job for the machine.
As promised, i will share many things about this... 

[mikeselectricstuff]

There is a pretty much infinite supply of old PCs of all vintages, so I don't think this is a major issue. At least anything Win98 onwards supports USB media, which isn't going away any time soon.
Old DOS systems may have some connectivity issues, what with floppy drives going away, and finding a DOS compatible hard disk may at least involve some fiddling around.

Hi

Once you find that the spec includes multiple EISA sockets (for the custom cards) plus a floppy plus an ISA disk and a few other weird bits ... the supply is far from infinite.  In some cases the last machine that had the "right" combo last shipped 30 years ago. We had one that the cards *only* would work on a "Genuine" IBM PC-AT. Anything past that ... not going to work.

Consider that you want a machine that will hold up in constant service. A quick lash up of flakey parts isn't going to do the job.

Bob

Ebay saved/favorite  searches are really handy for finding obscure stuff for spares. I got a spare vision card and PC MB for my P&P after about a year.

[rwb]

@ichan  Tell Tony to get on this thead and talk with us about the machine. We only want to help make it better for him and us.

I just came into a chunk of money that would allow me to purchase one of these machine if @ichan gets better results than the rest of the guys. I'm still hopeful.

Sounds like some tweaking is all that is needed to make this machine  really great.

[Ichan]

I am pretty sure Neoden people following this thread, they should answer all those questions for they own good.

I myself has no question yet about the software because i has not tried it, obviously.

How about peoples who already own the machine making a list of the software bug and feature request?

-ichan

[uncle_bob]

There is a pretty much infinite supply of old PCs of all vintages, so I don't think this is a major issue. At least anything Win98 onwards supports USB media, which isn't going away any time soon.
Old DOS systems may have some connectivity issues, what with floppy drives going away, and finding a DOS compatible hard disk may at least involve some fiddling around.

Hi

Once you find that the spec includes multiple EISA sockets (for the custom cards) plus a floppy plus an ISA disk and a few other weird bits ... the supply is far from infinite.  In some cases the last machine that had the "right" combo last shipped 30 years ago. We had one that the cards *only* would work on a "Genuine" IBM PC-AT. Anything past that ... not going to work.

Consider that you want a machine that will hold up in constant service. A quick lash up of flakey parts isn't going to do the job.

Bob

Ebay saved/favorite  searches are really handy for finding obscure stuff for spares. I got a spare vision card and PC MB for my P&P after about a year.

Hi

Good luck sending "big corporate IT" out to eBay for parts ....

Bob

[TheSteve]

There is a pretty much infinite supply of old PCs of all vintages, so I don't think this is a major issue. At least anything Win98 onwards supports USB media, which isn't going away any time soon.
Old DOS systems may have some connectivity issues, what with floppy drives going away, and finding a DOS compatible hard disk may at least involve some fiddling around.

Hi

Once you find that the spec includes multiple EISA sockets (for the custom cards) plus a floppy plus an ISA disk and a few other weird bits ... the supply is far from infinite.  In some cases the last machine that had the "right" combo last shipped 30 years ago. We had one that the cards *only* would work on a "Genuine" IBM PC-AT. Anything past that ... not going to work.

Consider that you want a machine that will hold up in constant service. A quick lash up of flakey parts isn't going to do the job.

Bob

Ebay saved/favorite  searches are really handy for finding obscure stuff for spares. I got a spare vision card and PC MB for my P&P after about a year.

Hi

Good luck sending "big corporate IT" out to eBay for parts ....

Bob

I don't see a company with "big corporate IT" buying a Neoden 4 or a 20+ year old PnP machine.

[mikeselectricstuff]

There is a pretty much infinite supply of old PCs of all vintages, so I don't think this is a major issue. At least anything Win98 onwards supports USB media, which isn't going away any time soon.
Old DOS systems may have some connectivity issues, what with floppy drives going away, and finding a DOS compatible hard disk may at least involve some fiddling around.

Hi

Once you find that the spec includes multiple EISA sockets (for the custom cards) plus a floppy plus an ISA disk and a few other weird bits ... the supply is far from infinite.  In some cases the last machine that had the "right" combo last shipped 30 years ago. We had one that the cards *only* would work on a "Genuine" IBM PC-AT. Anything past that ... not going to work.

Consider that you want a machine that will hold up in constant service. A quick lash up of flakey parts isn't going to do the job.

Bob

Ebay saved/favorite  searches are really handy for finding obscure stuff for spares. I got a spare vision card and PC MB for my P&P after about a year.

Hi

Good luck sending "big corporate IT" out to eBay for parts ....

Bob

"it's not a computer, it's a spare part for production equipment"