EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!

[DrGeoff]

lol this is really bad, and it's not even cold enough for frost heave yet!  Technically you almost need a concrete footing under these.

Their original installation was vastly more impressive than this new one. It had a concrete base and side concrete pits for the wiring and inverters and controllers and drainage etc. Panels looked much more robust and were bolted into steel bolts embedded in the concrete.
Now they just have these flimsy panels sitting on compacted sand on top of a drop sheet with no drainage
WTF happened? It's as if they have gone back in progress not forward?

Probably since it is a temporary installation there were local Guvmint restrictions on what they could do, since it may have to be returned to its original state after the trial.

[ataradov]

Probably since it is a temporary installation there were local Guvmint restrictions on what they could do, since it may have to be returned to its original state after the trial.

Yeah, that's a perfect way out. It is not our product that sucks, it is all government fault. Give us more money

[Brumby]

With an unproven surface, the risk of injury - and, thus, liability - could be a limiting factor.  It looks like it has some slip and trip hazard issues.

Maybe that's what the rest of the budget is for?

[LabSpokane]

lol this is really bad, and it's not even cold enough for frost heave yet!  Technically you almost need a concrete footing under these.

Their original installation was vastly more impressive than this new one. It had a concrete base and side concrete pits for the wiring and inverters and controllers and drainage etc. Panels looked much more robust and were bolted into steel bolts embedded in the concrete.
Now they just have these flimsy panels sitting on compacted sand on top of a drop sheet with no drainage
WTF happened? It's as if they have gone back in progress not forward?

The original was so expensive and impractical, it could have never worked.  They had to cost-reduce and encapsulate their electronics.

All roads needing utility trenches with that mess of conduit and mishmash of 3rd party equipment?  Now guess what?  You get to manage and treat all the runoff with even more civil works. 

SR did keep the 240VAC micro inverters, which is a strange, strange architecture given the massive amount of cabling costs and line loss.  Utility scale solar is NOT what micro inverters were ever intended for.  I think even EnPhase would tell people that's a nutty application. 

The irony of this is that once those panels are potted, recycling or repairing defective panels becomes virtually impossible - which brings right back around to asphalt - the undisputed heavyweight enviro-champion - and its >99% recycling rate.

[jonovid]

I do not begrudge the man or woman with a vision to change the world, but this product will mostly end up on the driveways of the mega rich as pavers. just so they can say even the driveway is carbon offsetting for the tesla.

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah I remember their original panels and install looked much better, and more robust, but I'm guessing it was cost prohibitive to make more of them.  I think they had more LEDs too, as they showed them being able to draw lines on the road.  With the current spacing you can't do much specific stuff except for just lighting them in different colors.
 

[Fungus]

I was going to do a video today laughing at the hilarity of this install. In light of this link with them admitting it went ahead knowing full well it would not produce any power and most panels faulty, should I still do the video? as I might have to do another one in the next few weeks when they have working panels installed.

Just record five minutes of yourself shaking your head in your hands. That sums it up nicely.

It wouldn't be very entertaining, but ... there's not a lot of material to work with.

Maybe just a three minute message to the people financing this.

Possible storyboard:

1) Take a big piece of paper with the math/science written all over it and throw it over your shoulder. They obviously aren't interested in that.

2) Point out that despite $(mumble) million in funding the panels still don't produce any power and can't heat a single snowflake. All they do is flash LEDs. Badly. Using mains electricity.

3) Whip out those $1 disco lights you bought at Jaycar two weeks ago and put a sheet of glass on top. Use the one with the broken LEDs. That's what they just paid for...at a million times the price of what you paid.

4) Show lots of photos of Scott with "scammer" written on them.

5) Done.

[rrinker]

 But the original ones had to stand up to the weight of a small tractor parking on it. These new ones, just a teenager jumping up and down. 
 Could the reason they had no actual data before be because those prototype ones they set up outside their facility and parked the tractor on ALSO didn't actual work?
 All that money, blown on manufacturing equipment and yet they still cannot manufacture much of anything, on TOP of all the science that says this is just bullshit. Love it. 

[jancumps]

Let's hope they don't catch fire once the water seeps in.

[coppice]

Let's hope they don't catch fire once the water seeps in.

Well, that would have the panel producing some energy. 

[EEVblog]

But the original ones had to stand up to the weight of a small tractor parking on it. These new ones, just a teenager jumping up and down. 
 Could the reason they had no actual data before be because those prototype ones they set up outside their facility and parked the tractor on ALSO didn't actual work?

I'm pretty sure they worked, and IIRC they give give one measured output power number or something in some report to the government funding body, but no actual public data. They are probably embarrassed at the result.

All that money, blown on manufacturing equipment and yet they still cannot manufacture much of anything, on TOP of all the science that says this is just bullshit. Love it. 

They are thoroughly clueless about the economics of manufacturing. And as for the story about them just putting the panels together hours before the install, and then having to spend all night writing code for the blinky, WTF? Who does that? They would have had this planned for many months, and they have been working on the panels for years and they didn't already have demo blinky code written?
And as for everyone knowing that 2/3's of the panels LED's were faulty, and not a single one could produce any power, knowing this just before the install and then making the decision to go ahead with it anyway? Crazy, and a waste of public and investor money. They deserve any criticism they get for this botched install.

[Fungus]

And as for everyone knowing that 2/3's of the panels LED's were faulty, and not a single one could produce any power, knowing this just before the install and then making the decision to go ahead with it anyway? Crazy, and a waste of public and investor money. They deserve any criticism they get for this botched install.

Were the panels around the outside of this demo supposed to light up as well? Why are they black?

Did they turn up with a load of faulty panels and decide to put the non-working ones around the outside as if that was intentional.

[Fungus]

From The SolarRoadways blog, 11 October:

We haven’t begun to show you what the panels can do. We just had time to very quickly throw up some LED patterns and they are on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime.

Somebody's telling lies.

How do I know? Because somebody went along at 1:30 in the morning, looked at the computer screen and decided to switch off four panels that were producing a perfect light show. Why would you do that if "light show" is the only thing the panels were supposed to be doing?



Hands up if you think it's more likely those four panels were producing such a small amount of power that he decided it was better to pretend that they'd failed completely rather than show the results.

Hands up if you also think he's now claiming none of the panels were wired for power production because the output of the remaining panels is so embarrassing.

(raises both hands)


Full sequence of events in (approximately) real time is here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/msg1041402/#msg1041402

[Fungus]

Next question: Is anybody here able to send this evidence to the people who are funding this?

(And Dave, you now have some real material for a new video...)

[Delta]

How on earth is this described as a "Demonstration of a Solar Roadway"?

1)  It's not a road.  It's not even a pavement (sidewalk), it's a patio.

2)  It's not fecking solar for feck's sake!    They have admitted that there is zero solar PV power produced.

They have built the world's most expensive flashing patio.  How can they (or the media) possibly spin this as being anything close to a "Solar Roadway"?

 

[Towger]

Did they turn up with a load of faulty panels and decide to put the non-working ones around the outside as if that was intentional.

More or less: http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges

All 30 panels — the LEDs, heaters and solar cells — had been tested and worked.

What they hadn’t counted on was the lamination — the last step in the manufacturing process — taking so long. The process, which hermetically seals the panels so they are weatherproof, normally takes six hours and is done under extreme vacuum to remove all air bubbles.

Thursday, the Brusaws and the rest of the Solar Roadways team stayed up all night taping the panels for lamination, then loaded the oven and began the lamination process at 5 a.m. With a press conference set for 1 p.m. and the “big reveal” in the town square set for 3 p.m., the couple said they knew there was little chance of them making the deadline.

....

“When the panels were finally removed from the oven, many of the internal circuit boards had been pulled apart,” he said. “Many of the components were crushed, bent or broken. Of the 30 panels, less than half of them still had LED functionality and only five of those could still produce any power.”

[Fungus]

I've sent an email about Scott's secret nighttime visit to the Bonner County Daily Bee.

Let's see if anything happens. 

From today's blog:

[drussell]

The part I really don't understand about this whole fiasco is the "building them the night before" part. 

This was in thw works for HOW LONG and they were still just building the panels the day they were supposed to be revealed?!

They knew this was going to be a public demo yet they went ahead on this schedule without any working prototypes to demonstrate? 

How does that make any sense? 

That's just pure insanity!!

[digsys]

Folks ! We're going to need BIGGER SHOVELS !

[EEVblog]

The part I really don't understand about this whole fiasco is the "building them the night before" part. 
This was in thw works for HOW LONG and they were still just building the panels the day they were supposed to be revealed?!
They knew this was going to be a public demo yet they went ahead on this schedule without any working prototypes to demonstrate? 
How does that make any sense? 
That's just pure insanity!!

It's worse, they also wrote the blinky demo the night before, as if they never had it already 

[EEVblog]

From today's blog:

Meanwhile, we hope you all are enjoying the partially working panels in person or with the webcam. The naysayers are of course trying to “spin” a narrative that we are having problems in all areas, rather than everything stemming from a problem with one piece of equipment. We haven’t begun to show you what the panels can do. We just had time to very quickly throw up some LED patterns and they are on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime. The naysayers are really having a field day with that one, but we’ll set things straight soon enough!

Err, why not just up the LED brightness? What's the problem there? It can't be the lamination issue.

[ataradov]

but we’ll set things straight soon enough!

We just need a bit more time until next government check clears .

[Kean]

It's worse, they also wrote the blinky demo the night before, as if they never had it already 

Actually I suspect the last minute "programming LEDs" was loading load into the microcontrollers, not actually writing the code.
But I find this whole thing mind boggling - terrible idea, terrible design, terrible implementation, terrible project management.

[Fungus]

... on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime.

Err, why not just up the LED brightness? What's the problem there? It can't be the lamination issue.

Maybe he didn't have the right LED controller chips in the LAB that day.

Or ... maybe he's just making excuses because he never actually tried those LEDs in daylight.

Either way it's 

[LabSpokane]

From today's blog:

Meanwhile, we hope you all are enjoying the partially working panels in person or with the webcam. The naysayers are of course trying to “spin” a narrative that we are having problems in all areas, rather than everything stemming from a problem with one piece of equipment. We haven’t begun to show you what the panels can do. We just had time to very quickly throw up some LED patterns and they are on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime. The naysayers are really having a field day with that one, but we’ll set things straight soon enough!

Err, why not just up the LED brightness? What's the problem there? It can't be the lamination issue.

Because there are clearly more undisclosed problems.

We just got our first frost this week. We have a warm front for the next few days. Then .... the City of Sandpoint will have to start putting a barricade around their ice-covered, electric disco floor, lest someone going to the loo take a header and break something.