Sniffing the Rigol's internal I2C bus

[Niffler]

My input option is grayed out and fixed to 1Mohm, and i have not be able to make it changeable.

Here is my installed options page.

[olsenn]

The lo-z (50-ohm) input impedance of the 'A' models is actually a hardware change; it cannot be implemented with a firmware upgrade (unless the rev.2 boards already had this in place).

What I'm curious to see is just how good the protection circuitry is, if any, for the 'A' models. With my spectrum analyzer, I know to always double check my signals to make sure it is safe for the device, but a scope I am used to just not worrying about it. Hopfully it has an auto-shutdown feature as well as the intelligence not to engage if selected when the input voltage reads larger than the damage level.

[JDubU]

The lo-z (50-ohm) input impedance of the 'A' models is actually a hardware change; it cannot be implemented with a firmware upgrade (unless the rev.2 boards already had this in place).
What I'm curious to see is just how good the protection circuitry is, if any, for the 'A' models. With my spectrum analyzer, I know to always double check my signals to make sure it is safe for the device, but a scope I am used to just not worrying about it. Hopfully it has an auto-shutdown feature as well as the intelligence not to engage if selected when the input voltage reads larger than the damage level.

The 50 ohm parallel input resistor plus relay are built into HW v2 hardware that has been shipping with the DS2000 series for most of this year.

See comparison photos:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-hardware-version-2-0

[staze]

The lo-z (50-ohm) input impedance of the 'A' models is actually a hardware change; it cannot be implemented with a firmware upgrade (unless the rev.2 boards already had this in place).

What I'm curious to see is just how good the protection circuitry is, if any, for the 'A' models. With my spectrum analyzer, I know to always double check my signals to make sure it is safe for the device, but a scope I am used to just not worrying about it. Hopfully it has an auto-shutdown feature as well as the intelligence not to engage if selected when the input voltage reads larger than the damage level.

The teardown of the HW2 version elsewhere (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-hardware-version-2-0/) shows that there is a 50ohm terminator, and it was able to be activated through JTAG... so no, it's just a firmware update that should allow it to be used.

[olsenn]

I stand corrected

[JDubU]

My input option is grayed out and fixed to 1Mohm, and i have not be able to make it changeable.

Here is my installed options page.

Interesting that you could get some of the new A series features but not all of them.

[Matje]

The lo-z (50-ohm) input impedance of the 'A' models is actually a hardware change; it cannot be implemented with a firmware upgrade (unless the rev.2 boards already had this in place).

What I'm curious to see is just how good the protection circuitry is, if any, for the 'A' models. With my spectrum analyzer, I know to always double check my signals to make sure it is safe for the device, but a scope I am used to just not worrying about it. Hopfully it has an auto-shutdown feature as well as the intelligence not to engage if selected when the input voltage reads larger than the damage level.

The teardown of the HW2 version elsewhere (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-hardware-version-2-0/) shows that there is a 50ohm terminator, and it was able to be activated through JTAG... so no, it's just a firmware update that should allow it to be used.

You can easily enable it now by connecting the scope via USB/Ethernet to a PC and sending the right command - this was shown somewhere else here. Sending e.g. "CHAN1:IMP FIFTY" will switch channel 1 to 50 ohms, "CHAN1:IMP OMEG" (that's not a zero but a letter O) to 1 MOhm. I can confirm that it really does switch input impedance on V2 hardware.

The menu will reflect the current setting but stay grayed out, so a new firmware or a hack is needed for convenient use.

[staze]

The teardown of the HW2 version elsewhere (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-hardware-version-2-0/) shows that there is a 50ohm terminator, and it was able to be activated through JTAG... so no, it's just a firmware update that should allow it to be used.

You can easily enable it now by connecting the scope via USB/Ethernet to a PC and sending the right command - this was shown somewhere else here. Sending e.g. "CHAN1:IMP FIFTY" will switch channel 1 to 50 ohms, "CHAN1:IMP OMEG" (that's not a zero but a letter O) to 1 MOhm. I can confirm that it really does switch input impedance on V2 hardware.

The menu will reflect the current setting but stay grayed out, so a new firmware or a hack is needed for convenient use.

Awesome! Does that stick between reboots?

[staze]

The teardown of the HW2 version elsewhere (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-hardware-version-2-0/) shows that there is a 50ohm terminator, and it was able to be activated through JTAG... so no, it's just a firmware update that should allow it to be used.

You can easily enable it now by connecting the scope via USB/Ethernet to a PC and sending the right command - this was shown somewhere else here. Sending e.g. "CHAN1:IMP FIFTY" will switch channel 1 to 50 ohms, "CHAN1:IMP OMEG" (that's not a zero but a letter O) to 1 MOhm. I can confirm that it really does switch input impedance on V2 hardware.

The menu will reflect the current setting but stay grayed out, so a new firmware or a hack is needed for convenient use.

Awesome! Does that stick between reboots?

Just tested this, and it does indeed stick between reboots. Cool!

[lacommtech]

I recently acquired a DSA815-TG and tried the Windows "riglol" command line program using my unit's serial number, "AAAD", and "80444DFECE903E" as the private key,  to try to generate the 10Hz RBW option. 

Unfortunately, the resulting code reports that it is invalid when I enter it into the 815.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

[Vtech]

lacommtech I also have DSA815-TG and I've used the same private key as you with riglol v2.0b1. All generated keys were ok including AAAD for 10Hz RBW. My DSA815 is quite new (week 09, 2013, firmware 00.01.06).

BTW. DSA815 with 10Hz RBW has really impressive DANL - I've measured about -145dBm with preamplifier on and tracking generator off. I've also noticed that the lowest value it can measure is -150dBm (it shows flat line at this value).

[Rigol-Friend]

Cool, I tried to change the impedance. It works fine  .
Many thanks for this info.

But how did you find 'IMP FIFTY' and 'IMP OMEG' ?
I have read the Rigol Programming Guide, but nothing is written there about these commands.

[PA0PBZ]

But how did you find 'IMP FIFTY' and 'IMP OMEG' ?
I have read the Rigol Programming Guide, but nothing is written there about these commands.

It's in the firmware.

[Rigol-Friend]

Oh yes I see.  Clever !

Thanks for the info. I think the products from Rigol contain some secrets, is'nt it?

[olsenn]

Just tested this, and it does indeed stick between reboots. Cool!

This is DANGEROUS! Applying too high of a voltage when 50-ohm input is enabled will destroy the scope. If you forget you turned it off when that mode was enabled, it's likely the next time you power up the scope you will just be assuming it's in hi-z mode.

[Rory]

Just tested this, and it does indeed stick between reboots. Cool!

This is DANGEROUS! Applying too high of a voltage when 50-ohm input is enabled will destroy the scope. If you forget you turned it off when that mode was enabled, it's likely the next time you power up the scope you will just be assuming it's in hi-z mode.

Would you think that most people would probably use the 10x probe in this scenario, and if so, how much power would terminator dissipate if you apply the maximum rated voltage for the probe?  Understandably a direct cable to the scope would definitely jeopardize the terminator (and the attenuator as well...?)

Personally, I will stick to using an external terminator and a 10:1 attenuator at the input of my scope if I'm measuring 50 ohm systems with it. Easier to replace the attenuator than send the scope in for repair.

[olsenn]

Would you think that most people would probably use the 10x probe in this scenario, and if so, how much power would terminator dissipate if you apply the maximum rated voltage for the probe?

This wouldn't work. The 10X probe has a very high input impedance, in the order of megaohms. This would be a voltage divider with a 1M+ resistor and a 50-ohm resistor... all of the signal would be lost before getting to the scope. The 50-ohm input is for connecting a (preferably impedance matched) device directly to the scope with a BNC cable.

[PA0PBZ]

The difference between the 1M and 50 ohm input is just that: a 50 ohm resistor switched over the input by a relay. So all you will destroy is the 50 ohm resistor, the rest of the scope should be safe since it is exactly the same circuit. That is of course assuming the dying resistor will not spread a fine carbon layer on top of your input circuitry.

[lacommtech]

Vtech, thanks for the response.  I was using the older version of the program and have now installed the new one. 

Works now.  I was entering spaces for the "-" in the generated key.  Entering the key w/o them solved the problem.

Thanks again.

[Rory]

Would you think that most people would probably use the 10x probe in this scenario, and if so, how much power would terminator dissipate if you apply the maximum rated voltage for the probe?

This wouldn't work. The 10X probe has a very high input impedance, in the order of megaohms. This would be a voltage divider with a 1M+ resistor and a 50-ohm resistor... all of the signal would be lost before getting to the scope. The 50-ohm input is for connecting a (preferably impedance matched) device directly to the scope with a BNC cable.

Precisely the point I'm trying to make. I'm just saying it would be pretty difficult to damage the terminator when the 10x probe is used.  That is all. All bets are off when you attach coax directly to the scope - wouldn't be surprised to see some bonehead apply 100w to the input and let the smoke out.

[olsenn]

Precisely the point I'm trying to make. I'm just saying it would be pretty difficult to damage the terminator when the 10x probe is used.  That is all. All bets are off when you attach coax directly to the scope - wouldn't be surprised to see some bonehead apply 100w to the input and let the smoke out.

You wouldn't damage the scope, but you also wouldn't see the goddamn signal. Vertical sensitivity is 0.5mV/div. Unless you're measuring a tesla coil, this is pointless

[DL5TOR]

Vtech, thanks for the response.  I was using the older version of the program and have now installed the new one. 

Works now.  I was entering spaces for the "-" in the generated key.  Entering the key w/o them solved the problem.

Thanks again.

Enter the key without any spaces or special signs just the plein letters and numebes then it shuld work

73 de dl5tor

[AndreaEl]

And the same did Niffler. So this is not version related, that is something else! Did you tried to uninstall all options and install them again? Maybe it is current date related (must be crazy)?

I have try but nothing... Only 200M BW.
I have used same Serial(obvious), same priv key and same key generator.

Is CAN bus trigger and decode option present?

CAN trigger/decode not present. Before and after reinstall key.

[lacommtech]

"Enter the key without any spaces or special signs just the plein letters and numebes then it shuld work

73 de dl5tor"

Das funktioniert gut.

Vielen Dank.

[Bugware]

Hi folks,

I'm a little confused. There are two ways for Windows to generate license keys. Once with rigol.zip by studio25 for the command line (most recent in reply #1171 on page 79) and the other which is RiGen-2b1.zip by synapsis in reply #955 on page 64.


1.  Generates both Windows-Apps correct licenses?

So far I understand is that synapsis use the original code by cybernet with some kind of brute force technique and studio25 uses a cleanuped version of the cybernet code.  But by using the same serial number and private key they generate different license keys. In the version of studio25 it is not possible to set a seed. So it try’s with seed of 1? I definitely lost the thread how do both programs work.

In any case, it makes me unsure that two separate programs compute with same inputs different results.  It feels to me (and maybe to others too) not to be stable. But apparently both work properly, many have already been activated their devices with one or another of these programs for Windows. It would be more comprehensible and comparable if both have the same result.

So my question is, can I use both without any risk? (Without risk to lose the serial number for example?  Is now the license uninstallable everytime for sure?)


2. Are there more possible to activate?

Niffler has activated his device with synapsis RiGen-2b1 at random to a DS2302 (reply #1186 on page 80). At the very beginning of this thread some had chanced bytes directly in the firmware to get the 1ns option.
Are there maybe other options hidden and secret in the license keys to activate more options like 300MHz BW, CAN trigger/decode and the 50ohm option…? Has somebody take a look at that? What does cybernet says to that?

OR

In the Firmware are clearly stuck parts from other equipment or hardware (-versions). Are there some kind of recognition mechanisms in the firmware that detects which device is operating and then unlock functions? But what criteria recognizes the firmware to unlock features? The serial number? The hardware version? Both together? 

Or are there different firmwares out with the same version number but for each DS2000 series “type”?


3. Does anyone know what the difference is to the MCU 02.12?

Here the System info of my device:

Model: DS2072
Serial: DS2A1527xxxxx
Software Version: 00.01.01  (00.01.01.00.02)
Hardware Version: 2.0       (1.0.2.0.0)
FPGA version:
    SPU  03.01.05
    WPU  00.06.05
    CCU  12.29.00
    MCU  02.12

I've seen only once the MCU version 02.12. What has that probably mean? Is that Microcontroller unit changed in hardware or software version?  Probably not Hardware because it is a part of the FPGA. More recent devices have a MCU 00.05? And older also... Is that not strange?

Does somebody recognize that and know more about the MCU 02.12?


Many questions from me...

But nevertheless kudos and many thanks to all the people who have given so much effort and put in so much work! Incredible!

Thumbs up! 
Bugware


PS @studio25: Is it possible to put a version number to your program? That would make it easier to check if you have the latest version.