Author Topic: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol  (Read 1100120 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JOHNJB

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: es
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #275 on: December 30, 2012, 11:31:44 pm »
Marmad or EV, have you guys tried the i2c serial decode features? How good is that software on this dso for that?

I have used only RS-232 decoder and it works well.
[/quote]

In ASCII mode, if its not a bug it looks like it:
ASCII-ANSI Standard, it comprise characters and controls,
it only decodes characters.
In the attached examples, my old Yokogawa decodes:
decode-1: (CR),(LF)
decode-2: (ENQ),F,F,9,1,(CR)
me and older technicians prefer this mode not "*"

John JB

 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #276 on: December 31, 2012, 01:33:54 am »
Does anyone have (or has anyone seen) any copy of the RIGOL Programming Guide - DS2000 Series Digital Oscilloscope besides this one (dated July 2012)?

It's a little odd that the only copy I can find online (I see no copy at any of the Rigol websites) is clearly written for FW 01.00.02 (evidenced by the outdated "Keep" command - instead of "Open" - for Record Open).

Given this latest discovery of the memory read problem with FW 01.00.05, it seems to me there are two possible conclusions:

1) Rigol is aware of this bad problem with FW 01.00.05 - and so is downplaying the programming aspect of the scope (Programming Guide offline, no IVI driver, etc) until they can rectify the problem.

Or the other, more hopeful, alternative:

2) Because the Programming Guide is outdated and hasn't been revised, the command sequence for reading memory in FW 01.00.05 has changed slightly - and the technique as laid out for FW 01.00.02 doesn't work anymore. Then all we need to do is hear from Rigol what the new method is.

Waiting....  ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 10:17:36 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Sparky

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 450
  • Country: us
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #277 on: December 31, 2012, 01:56:57 am »
Does anyone have (or has anyone seen) any copy of the RIGOL Programming Guide - DS2000 Series Digital Oscilloscope besides ...

It's a little odd that the only copy I can find online (I see no copy at any of the Rigol websites) is clearly written for FW 01.00.02 (evidenced by the outdated "Keep" command - instead of "Open" - for Record Open).

Then all we need to do is hear from Rigol what the new method is.

Waiting....  ::)

I could not find the DS2000 Series Programming Guide on the Rigol NA website, however it is currently available on the Rigol website (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/document/?act=view&itemid=547).

When I went looking for documents, I found the Rigol website better than Rigol NA website (several documents on the latter site are older versions than what is available from the former website).

I think we need updated firmware, and then an updated Programming Guide (and IVI driver --- after all, our DS2000 has "LXI Class C" stamped on the back, so it should come with IVI driver by default!).  We don't know what will happen in the next firmware: SCPI commands might revert to 01.00.02 (i.e. "Keep" instead of "Open"), or they might stay as per 01.00.05 and incorporate bug fixes, or they might change to something new!  I'm hoping it's just a matter of bug fixes, but its looking like they have a whole lot of issues to resolve.  I hope they speed it up!
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #278 on: December 31, 2012, 02:02:01 am »
I could not find the DS2000 Series Programming Guide on the Rigol NA website, however it is currently available on the Rigol website (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/document/?act=view&itemid=547).

Well that's good to know at least. It just seems strange that a Google search only turns up that copy at the .edu site - and many sellers (the big one in the EU is Batronix) don't offer it among the documentation that have available for download.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #279 on: December 31, 2012, 11:47:18 am »
But not sure of this.., can anyone who has not filled in a new trail option key from Rigol,
confirm that he has also restored the trail options..?, before or after it expired.

I have a new key from Rigol - but I have not used it yet.

BTW, Wim, what FW version are you using? I'd like to find one more person with FW 01.00.02 to verify that the memory reading bug is not present in that version.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to discover if the WFM-loading corruption bug is also present in FW 01.00.02.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 10:18:32 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Wim13

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Country: nl
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #280 on: December 31, 2012, 12:51:29 pm »
I have software version 1.005, seems that all 2072 have .5 and the 2202 have .2
if a read back the posts

Did a port scan on the Lan interface, only found port 80 for the webinterface
and port 111 with 618 and 619 for Sun rpc. The system seems to use Unix/Linux
They have blocked the telnet, also on 9000 ports
 

Offline larsie

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 18
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #281 on: December 31, 2012, 12:53:52 pm »
Looking inside the firmware-file, you can see the web responses in clear-text. Would be cool to change some of the text. I wonder if the file is signed to prevent going in and changing characters... it can't be that easy I guess  :)
 

Offline Wim13

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Country: nl
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #282 on: December 31, 2012, 01:38:05 pm »
Looking inside the firmware-file, you can see the web responses in clear-text. Would be cool to change some of the text. I wonder if the file is signed to prevent going in and changing characters... it can't be that easy I guess  :)

On these files there is always a kind of checksum, because if something goes wrong during
transfer or somewere else, the whole sysem will crash. Most checksums are not complicated.
And you have to know where it is stored in the file.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #283 on: December 31, 2012, 01:48:22 pm »
I have software version 1.005, seems that all 2072 have .5 and the 2202 have .2
if a read back the posts

No, not at all. I believe Teneyes (who is currently on 01.00.02) has a 2072. And many people on the thread (tlu, Sparky, etc) bought 2072s not long ago which came with 01.00.02. In fact, I think that most models sold in NA have 01.00.02 still installed - and it seems many in the EU have 01.00.05.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #284 on: December 31, 2012, 02:48:24 pm »
In ASCII mode, if its not a bug it looks like it:
ASCII-ANSI Standard, it comprise characters and controls,
it only decodes characters.
In the attached examples, my old Yokogawa decodes:
decode-1: (CR),(LF)
decode-2: (ENQ),F,F,9,1,(CR)
me and older technicians prefer this mode not "*"

Thanks for posting this, John. I'm not sure I would call this a 'bug' per se - but it certainly is lazy/sloppy coding at the least. I haven't had much time to really investigate the different decoding options yet (or the extended triggers either) except the small amount of testing I did with the I2C in the video review -  but I'm sure there are many 'bugs' to discover in these areas as well.  ;)
 

Offline Wim13

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Country: nl
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #285 on: December 31, 2012, 04:18:52 pm »
External trigger and the sampling speed,

External trigger and channel 1 on, ( 2 off) got 1 Gsa/s
External trigger and channel 2 on, ( 1 off) got 2 Gsa/s

And cant get 2 Gsa/s on channel 1 with external trigger,
only on channel 2. Is this normal, or do i somthing wrong.?
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #286 on: December 31, 2012, 05:03:59 pm »
And cant get 2 Gsa/s on channel 1 with external trigger,
only on channel 2. Is this normal, or do i somthing wrong.?

It appears to be a bug that's confined to the menu selection process. It's not a problem to do it with SCPI commands, as shown in the commented copied and pasted exchange below:

===========================================

-> :CHANnel1:DISPlay?                   // Check CHAN1 status
1                                                     // CHAN1 1 is on

-> :CHANnel2:DISPlay?                   // Check CHAN2 status
0                                                     // CHAN2 is off

-> :TRIGger:EDGe:SOURce EXT      // Set trigger source to EXT

-> :TRIGger:EDGe:SOURce?           // Check trigger source
EXT                                                // Trigger source is EXT

-> :ACQuire:SRATe?                      // Check sample rate
2.000000e+09                              // Sample rate is 2G Sa/s

===========================================
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #287 on: December 31, 2012, 05:11:41 pm »
Also, if you bootup with CH1 and EXT trigger selected - you get 2G Sa/s. So you just have to set it - then turn off and on your DSO. Easy as pie  ;D
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #288 on: December 31, 2012, 05:48:46 pm »
I'm planning to write a DS2000 WFM format <-> DS1000 WFM format converter in awhile (once I collect more info about the DS2000 format) and adding it to the utilities.

Here is a little experimentation in the early days. I've taken a 14MPt WFM DS2000 file of a sine wave and stripped it of it's header. Then I've added a DS1000 header onto it so that I can read it into dexter2048's nice Delphi-based WFM viewer and analyzer (built for the DS1052E). His program can do FFT spectrum analysis with up to 1M samples. Very cool.

 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #289 on: December 31, 2012, 07:21:33 pm »
Also, if you bootup with CH1 and EXT trigger selected - you get 2G Sa/s.
DS2072 FW  1.00.02
   Yes is BUg and should NOT have to REpower to Get 2GSa/s for External
   I can see switch to 1Ga/s if trigger is Chan 2, as you watch chan 1, but after selector (multifuction knob) goes to EXT. then allow 2GSa/s again.

IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline drieg

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 85
  • Country: cz
    • Silcon Electronics
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #290 on: December 31, 2012, 10:40:51 pm »
BTW, Wim, what FW version are you using? I'd like to find one more person with FW 01.00.02 to verify that the memory reading bug is not present in that version.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to discover if the WFM-loading corruption bug is also present in FW 01.00.02.
I can confirm, FW 01.00.02 has also problems reloading saved WFM files.
I reported both issues reported to Rigol...
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 10:42:50 pm by drieg »
Bricked Rigol? This thread might be of any help.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #291 on: December 31, 2012, 10:50:43 pm »
There is another new memory-reading related bug (not to be confused with the original Memory Read bug = #9 in our ever-growing list:(

This one affects both FW 01.00.02 and 01.00.05: when attempting to read 7MB sample depths out of the scope, the DSO transfers the wrong number of bytes (something 'random' between 6.9 - 7MB).
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #292 on: January 01, 2013, 02:11:24 am »
One thing I wanted to reiterate here which I mentioned to Teneyes over in the software thread - and which, perhaps like I was, some other owners are unaware of because it's counter-intuitive to the way we think of recording (this didn't really dawn on me until I started programming RUU):

The recording of frames is controlled by triggering - not by time. Although you can specify a delay before the re-arming of the trigger - each frame is captured by a trigger. That means if you segment the memory for recording the maximum 65000 frames - and you use the maximum re-arm (delay) interval of 10 seconds - you can record a time-lapse picture of a triggered waveform that will be stretched over at least 7.5 days of time in length (with a trigger of at least once every 10 seconds). The slowest timebase setting for 65000 frames is 50ns - with 700ns being recorded with each frame. So that would be ~45 milliseconds of recorded time - spread evenly over 7.5 days. You can then run it through the analysis function - and get a histogram of deviation of the waveform over that length of time.

This is a really powerful feature - and as far as I can tell, there isn't anything remotely similar on the Agilent X Series - or anything else anywhere near this price class.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 02:29:07 am by marmad »
 

Offline martinv

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 39
  • Country: us
    • mvforum
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #293 on: January 01, 2013, 08:43:25 am »
DS2000 series owners check your heat sink clips!

After using my new DS2072 for several days.  I noticed a rattling sound when I moved it.  Having heard of this clip retainer issue, I decided to investigate, but didn't want to void the warranty.  Luckily the heatsinks and clips can all be seen from the side ventilation holes.   I found on clip and one retainer were missing.  After lots of shaking, I was able to get both of the missing parts position by the ventilation holes and pulled them out with a tweezers.

It appears the retaining loop was soldered but not good enough for the heavy spring tension on it.

The first pic below shows the parts.
2nd pic shows one of the retainer loops still in place, but the spring missing.
3rd pic shows the position of the missing retainer. (screenshot from Dave's review, not my scope)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 08:50:00 am by martinv »
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16284
  • Country: za
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #294 on: January 01, 2013, 09:05:01 am »
Solder flow under strain....... To see it for yourself take a length of solder, around 4 foot in length, and hang it over a coat hanger or on a hook and leave it in a cupboard for a week undisturbed. It will break in that time from it's own mass and the constant pull on it. Those loops ideally should be made longer on the board solder side and bent over and clinched before soldering. That will hold them down mechanically and the solder will just provide additional support. If replacing them make the new ones from a loop of copper wire and bend it over after insertion and before soldering.
 

Offline EV

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 525
  • Country: fi
  • Aficionado
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #295 on: January 01, 2013, 11:08:45 am »
I have this bug on Loading of WFM files EXCEPT on loading a 54MPts See att

This is problematic, because it does not appear always on every saving and loading.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #296 on: January 01, 2013, 11:49:24 am »
DS2000 series owners check your heat sink clips!

Thanks for reporting this Martin. Unfortunately there's no easy way to check them without taking off that pesky sticker - aside from shaking the device - which might cause the problem.

I've never been a big fan of this method of spring retention - it's always seemed a little dubious to me. I've had them come off on three different motherboards over the years.
 

Offline scummos

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
  • Country: de
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #297 on: January 01, 2013, 12:00:42 pm »
Hi!

Since recently I also own a DS2000 series scope (the 200MHz version) and I have some questions and comments too.

Overall it's a quite nice device, the UI is mostly intuitive and other than for the Owon scopes, you can look at the screen without getting eye cancer from the bad color choices. For what I tested it matches the promised specifications. The startup time is reasonably fast. The fan is sort of loud but its pitch is not annoying; I can easily live with that. The USB/LAN programming API is very powerful anyways (I just played with it a little bit). The overall build quality feels solid. The pushable knobs are a bit annoying at first since you often accidentially rotate them a bit while pushing, but I'm very sure that that will not happen any more once you've used them for a few weeks, it's just about practice. I'm already getting better at it. ;)
I think there is no point in writing down all the things which are cool, most of that has been said already.

Instead here's some more questions and toughts.

Here's the frequency response of the DS2202 scope (sorry, it's in relative units, the actual values on the y axis mean nothing; it's probably kind of inaccurate too). The four or five little "spikes" are measurement errors. You can see that the -3dB point is a bit above 200MHz. The trigger works okay for up to ~650MHz to 700MHz, above that it's getting very difficult to see anything except blur on the screen in non-singleshot mode. Maybe the big waves in the diagram are due to impedance mismatch, I'm not sure. I'll try again with different matching later.
This is not a professional measurement, don't rely on it or anything, it's just a nice image for illustration. ;)

This was measured by pluging a frequency generator into the scope and making it sweep, reading Vpp via TMC after every sweep step.
Even at 1GHz there's still something visible, but only sharp in Single mode and it's kind of wobbly.

Then, some things that confuse me.

In the drawings, the probes that come with the scope have two adjustment screws, for LF / HF or so, one on the plug and one on the probe itself. Mine only have a screw on the plug and the hole on the probe is filled with plastic stuff (but the hole can be seen clearly). Is that normal?

Also about the probes, the hooktip accessoires don't stick to the probes well, they very easily slip off a bit and then you're confused why you don't measure anything. Am I just too stupid to mount them (you just need to push them over the probe front, right?) or is this really a problem?

About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.

Then, a general technical question about how the trigger and dead time works. I figured that the DSO works by sampling the input and writing this to a ring buffer with size specified by memory depth. If a trigger event happens, the ring buffer is frozen (no new data is written to it) and the contents are what you call a "captured waveform" and will be displayed on the screen. After the buffer readout is complete, sampling continues. Is this correct so far?
How does the trigger work: is it done on the sampled data, or in an analog circuit? For the edge trigger, I guess the former, but I can't imagine that it holds true for the I2C trigger.
From the above, I would conclude that dead times only happen after trigger events. So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and iff (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure. Is that correct?
Oh also, the DS2202 seems to display more than one captured waveform per screen update, even with Min persistence time set. "Min" apparently means "all waveforms captured since the last screen refresh"... which is just fine. It implies, however, that pressing STOP while the scope is in T'D or AUTO state will not have the same result as pressing SINGLE, then FORCE (or waiting for a trigger event), since the former might display more than one waveform on the screen.

Then, why did Rigol decide not to have a 50 Ohm input on the scope? I found that many of the scopes on the market don't have it. Is it because it's a bit easy to destroy with high-power input?
Anyways, if I plug a BNC T piece directly into the scope input, and terminate one end with a 50 ohm load, and plug my 50 ohm signal into the other, that will basically be a 50 ohm input with still accurate voltage measurements; correct?

At some places, the scope feels quite sluggish when moving or resizing curves. For example, in FFT mode, it seems to recalculate the FFT each time you move the reference level, making it feel quite sluggish to change that. It would be really great if Rigol fixed this, it wouldn't be very difficult ;)
It's not a big deal anyways, it just feels a bit slow in some situations (not that it would be any faster if they'd just move the curves, but it would *feel* faster).

Thanks for the nice amount of information collected in this thread anyways, very useful!

Greetings,
Sven

_______________________
P.S.: marmad, I sent you a private message. ;)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 12:11:24 pm by scummos »
Jabber: scummos@jabber.org
 

Offline EV

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 525
  • Country: fi
  • Aficionado
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #298 on: January 01, 2013, 12:35:24 pm »

In the drawings, the probes that come with the scope have two adjustment screws, for LF / HF or so, one on the plug and one on the probe itself. Mine only have a screw on the plug and the hole on the probe is filled with plastic stuff (but the hole can be seen clearly). Is that normal?

There is a plug on the hole. You can take it off.


Also about the probes, the hooktip accessoires don't stick to the probes well, they very easily slip off a bit and then you're confused why you don't measure anything. Am I just too stupid to mount them (you just need to push them over the probe front, right?) or is this really a problem?

Push the tip harder. It will click to its place.


About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.

I have not found alt trigger either.



Then, why did Rigol decide not to have a 50 Ohm input on the scope? I found that many of the scopes on the market don't have it. Is it because it's a bit easy to destroy with high-power input?
Anyways, if I plug a BNC T piece directly into the scope input, and terminate one end with a 50 ohm load, and plug my 50 ohm signal into the other, that will basically be a 50 ohm input with still accurate voltage measurements; correct?

Yes, 50 ohm feed through adapter should be better.


 

Offline scummos

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
  • Country: de
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #299 on: January 01, 2013, 12:46:12 pm »
Hi!

There is a plug on the hole. You can take it off.
Ah, okay. I tought so at first, but when it wasn't reasonably easy to remove, I just gave up on that.

Also about the probes, the hooktip accessoires don't stick to the probes well, they very easily slip off a bit and then you're confused why you don't measure anything. Am I just too stupid to mount them (you just need to push them over the probe front, right?) or is this really a problem?
Push the tip harder. It will click to its place.
Haha, yeah, it really does -- stupid me. Thanks.


About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.
I have not found alt trigger either.
Ok, then I guess it's just not there.

Then, why did Rigol decide not to have a 50 Ohm input on the scope? I found that many of the scopes on the market don't have it. Is it because it's a bit easy to destroy with high-power input?
Anyways, if I plug a BNC T piece directly into the scope input, and terminate one end with a 50 ohm load, and plug my 50 ohm signal into the other, that will basically be a 50 ohm input with still accurate voltage measurements; correct?
Yes, 50 ohm feed through adapter should be better.
I'll probably buy one then, they're not very expensive.

Greetings,
Sven
Jabber: scummos@jabber.org
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf