Author Topic: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol  (Read 1092394 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #300 on: January 01, 2013, 01:01:26 pm »
About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.

For some reason, Rigol didn't include it in the DS2000 series - perhaps because of the ASIC they're using for the fast wfrm/s update rate - I don't know.

Quote
From the above, I would conclude that dead times only happen after trigger events. So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and if (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure. Is that correct?

Yes, in principle, the 'dead time' extends from the trigger moment. But for fast signals, you might have to consider the hold-off as well. The trigger system is not activated until a specified amount of samples are measured after starting the measurement (the trigger hold-off). When the input signal meets the trigger requirements during the trigger hold-off period, this will not generate a trigger and the system will remain sampling pre-samples. After the trigger hold-off has passed, at the first occasion that the trigger conditions are met, the system will start measuring post samples.

Quote
Oh also, the DS2202 seems to display more than one captured waveform per screen update, even with Min persistence time set. "Min" apparently means "all waveforms captured since the last screen refresh"... which is just fine. It implies, however, that pressing STOP while the scope is in T'D or AUTO state will not have the same result as pressing SINGLE, then FORCE (or waiting for a trigger event), since the former might display more than one waveform on the screen.

Yes, but there can actually be only ONE final waveform in the sample memory eventually, so even though you see the contents of the waveform buffer (> 1 waveform) when you STOP the DSO - as soon as you change the horizontal or vertical scale, you see the display 'snap' to the last waveform captured.
 

Offline Wim13

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Country: nl
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #301 on: January 01, 2013, 01:03:42 pm »
Hi!

Since recently I also own a DS2000 series scope (the 200MHz version) and I have some questions and comments too.


Then, some things that confuse me.

In the drawings, the probes that come with the scope have two adjustment screws, for LF / HF or so, one on the plug and one on the probe itself. Mine only have a screw on the plug and the hole on the probe is filled with plastic stuff (but the hole can be seen clearly). Is that normal?

Also about the probes, the hooktip accessoires don't stick to the probes well, they very easily slip off a bit and then you're confused why you don't measure anything. Am I just too stupid to mount them (you just need to push them over the probe front, right?) or is this really a problem?

About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.

Then, why did Rigol decide not to have a 50 Ohm input on the scope? I found that many of the scopes on the market don't have it. Is it because it's a bit easy to destroy with high-power input?
Anyways, if I plug a BNC T piece directly into the scope input, and terminate one end with a 50 ohm load, and plug my 50 ohm signal into the other, that will basically be a 50 ohm input with still accurate voltage measurements; correct?


Greetings,
Sven

I miss also the alternate trigger that is common on cheapo scoops, i did not found a workaround yet.

And yes about the 50 ohms it is not correct..., the BNC connector has not a high impedance for higher frequencies,
so the voltage on the BNC connector is not wath it is. Mine has 1 Mohm and 18 pf input, and also some inductance.
Even if you have a 50 ohm terminator on the input, the BNC connector has a complex impedance, which gives
wrong readings and also standing waves, as you can see on your plot. I measured on my Rigol 2072, that on 200 Mhz
the voltage drop by just connecting was 3 dB on a cable with T connector and 50 ohm termination, due to complex impedance.

So if possible i am very curious if you can measure then bandwidth on some points like 100-150-200Mhz...??

And the probes are oke for frequencies to 30 Mhz, and for pulse signals. For hihger frequencies you have to
use terminated cables. See also former posts.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #302 on: January 01, 2013, 01:20:36 pm »
And the probes are oke for frequencies to 30 Mhz, and for pulse signals. For hihger frequencies you have to
use terminated cables. See also former posts.

Just to put things in perspective, I would guess that this is likely true for almost, if not every DSO cheaper than the DS2000 series - and possibly more expensive scopes like the lower-end Hamegs and the Agilent 2000X series as well.
 

Offline EV

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 525
  • Country: fi
  • Aficionado
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #303 on: January 01, 2013, 01:22:16 pm »
I have made some tests in the earlier posts. With T-adapter and 50 ohm terminator the responce curve is quite straight to 70 MHz. After that there is some SWR. I have not either this 50 ohm feed through terminator. I have bought it but not got it yet.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #304 on: January 01, 2013, 01:38:52 pm »
That is correct, thats why you have also special probes and active probes. If you want to do lab measurements
then you have to think about all these things. these cable reflections has so many influences.

I have worked for a cerfication calibration company, and before you were allowed to do any measuremts, you had
to follow several courses for several months. Anyone can read a display, but only a few knows what they measure.

Do you know of any decent probe brands for sale (~250MHz) that don't cost an arm and a leg?  :)
 

Offline EV

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 525
  • Country: fi
  • Aficionado
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #305 on: January 01, 2013, 02:10:35 pm »
Active probe Rigol RP7150 Fits for Rigol Series 4000, 6000 costs  3268 Eur. There is no for DS2000. If there is some it needs a separate power supply. Maybe somebody has self made.
 

Offline scummos

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
  • Country: de
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #306 on: January 01, 2013, 03:07:28 pm »
Quote
From the above, I would conclude that dead times only happen after trigger events. So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and if (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure. Is that correct?

Yes, in principle, the 'dead time' extends from the trigger moment. But for fast signals, you might have to consider the hold-off as well. The trigger system is not activated until a specified amount of samples are measured after starting the measurement (the trigger hold-off). When the input signal meets the trigger requirements during the trigger hold-off period, this will not generate a trigger and the system will remain sampling pre-samples. After the trigger hold-off has passed, at the first occasion that the trigger conditions are met, the system will start measuring post samples.
Okay, I guess this is to have a consistent amounts of samples available for the user to scroll through before the trigger ... triggers.
Once the system is running, this will basically just add to the dead time tough, won't it? *

Quote
Oh also, the DS2202 seems to display more than one captured waveform per screen update, even with Min persistence time set. "Min" apparently means "all waveforms captured since the last screen refresh"... which is just fine. It implies, however, that pressing STOP while the scope is in T'D or AUTO state will not have the same result as pressing SINGLE, then FORCE (or waiting for a trigger event), since the former might display more than one waveform on the screen.

Yes, but there can actually be only ONE final waveform in the sample memory eventually, so even though you see the contents of the waveform buffer (> 1 waveform) when you STOP the DSO - as soon as you change the horizontal or vertical scale, you see the display 'snap' to the last waveform captured.
Aah, alright, interesting. So they probably just use a screen buffer and draw all captured waveforms into it, and then 30 times per second (or whatever the screen refresh rate is), they swap the buffer to the screen and clear it? That sounds logical. Thanks for explaining!

Quote from: wim13
And yes about the 50 ohms it is not correct..., the BNC connector has not a high impedance for higher frequencies,
so the voltage on the BNC connector is not wath it is. Mine has 1 Mohm and 18 pf input, and also some inductance.
Even if you have a 50 ohm terminator on the input, the BNC connector has a complex impedance, which gives
wrong readings and also standing waves, as you can see on your plot.
Alright, so altough it should in theory be correct it is not because the plug screws things up... which likely won't be the case in a professionally made 50 ohm adaptor. Fine.

Quote from: EV
Active probe Rigol RP7150 Fits for Rigol Series 4000, 6000 costs  3268 Eur. There is no for DS2000.
Given that's more than twice the price of the scope that is not very surprising ;)

Greetings,
Sven


___________
* That "iff" you corrected to "if" was not a typo, it was borrowed from formal logic ;) see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if
The "sic" behind it is used to tell that the previous thing which was said is believed by the author to be correct altough it might seem weird.
Sorry for that, I tought it was commonly used in the English language.
Jabber: scummos@jabber.org
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #307 on: January 01, 2013, 03:18:25 pm »
Okay, I guess this is to have a consistent amounts of samples available for the user to scroll through before the trigger ... triggers.
Once the system is running, this will basically just add to the dead time tough, won't it? *

Yes, if you consider it as coming after the normal post-trigger processing dead time - and before the next trigger.

Quote
Aah, alright, interesting. So they probably just use a screen buffer and draw all captured waveforms into it, and then 30 times per second (or whatever the screen refresh rate is), they swap the buffer to the screen and clear it? That sounds logical. Thanks for explaining!

Yes - like a 3D buffer for stacking the waveforms to set the alpha (or intensity grading). There are some quite good descriptions around for DPOs = Digital Phosphor Oscilloscopes - which is technically what the UltraVision line is (as opposed to a normal DSO).

Quote
* That "iff" you corrected to "if" was not a typo, it was borrowed from formal logic

Yes, of course - I knew this - but the weird thing is that I don't remember processing it OR correcting the writing :) I must have done that without even thinking about it. But then looking back to your original statement as logic:

"So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and iff (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure."

is NOT true - because you can also set the trigger to Single mode with the same outcome  ;)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 03:29:48 pm by marmad »
 

Offline scummos

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
  • Country: de
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #308 on: January 01, 2013, 03:36:12 pm »
Ok, thanks for refining the explanations -- I think it's clear now.

Quote
* That "iff" you corrected to "if" was not a typo, it was borrowed from formal logic

Yes, of course - I knew this - but the weird thing is that I don't remember processing it OR correcting the writing :) I must have done that without even thinking about it.
Haha now that's funny. Maybe some software corrected it, somewhere?

Quote
But then looking back to your original statement as logic:

"So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and iff (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure."

is NOT true - because you can also set the trigger to Single mode with the same outcome  ;)
Right. ;)
Jabber: scummos@jabber.org
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #309 on: January 01, 2013, 03:41:29 pm »
@scummos

BTW, I don't know how much of this exponentially-growing thread you've managed to cover, but in case you missed this post regarding the wfrm/s rate of the scope - it might be of interest to you. It shows that the 20ns timebase scale is the optimal one to use (if possible) when glitch-hunting (i.e. smallest amount of dead time).
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 03:47:13 pm by marmad »
 

Offline andersm

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1198
  • Country: fi
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #310 on: January 01, 2013, 04:01:45 pm »
This is problematic, because it does not appear always on every saving and loading.
Is there a difference if you immediately reload after saving, or if you perform some additional measurements in between? From the descriptions, it sounds like the scope draws whatever is in the sample memory instead of the missing data, and if you just do a save and reload, chances are the original data is still there.

Offline dougg

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #311 on: January 01, 2013, 04:04:05 pm »
@scummos

BTW, I don't know how much of this exponentially-growing thread you've managed to cover, but in case you missed this post regarding the wfrm/s rate of the scope - it might be of interest to you. It shows that the 20ns timebase scale is the optimal one to use (if possible) when glitch-hunting (i.e. smallest amount of dead time).

Since you (marmad) are the main contributor to this thread (and several other DS2000 related threads on EEV forums), perhaps you might consider starting a webpage (or wiki) containing the collected wisdom on this subject. Perhaps Dave might help out with space and a reasonably well known domain name.

Decoding posts in such a long thread (actually 3 overlapping threads) can be time consuming. For example, the "F7-F6-F7" key sequence had me scratching my head. You won't find a key called "F7" in the Rigol manual or its help pages.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #312 on: January 01, 2013, 04:05:11 pm »
Is there a difference if you immediately reload after saving, or if you perform some additional measurements in between? From the descriptions, it sounds like the scope draws whatever is in the sample memory instead of the missing data, and if you just do a save and reload, chances are the original data is still there.

Not tested yet - the parameters of this bug are still unknown - and I haven't had the time to do a thorough investigation. Perhaps you'd like to discover them?  ;)

Since you (marmad) are the main contributor to this thread (and several other DS2000 related threads on EEV forums), perhaps you might consider starting a webpage (or wiki) containing the collected wisdom on this subject. Perhaps Dave might help out with space and a reasonably well known domain name.

Ahh... because I have sunk tons of time into these threads for other DS2000 owners - why not sink more?  ;)  Seriously, though I'm barely managing my time as it is - I leave this burden to someone else  :)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 04:07:34 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Wim13

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Country: nl
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #313 on: January 01, 2013, 04:05:53 pm »
@scummos

BTW, I don't know how much of this exponentially-growing thread you've managed to cover, but in case you missed this post regarding the wfrm/s rate of the scope - it might be of interest to you. It shows that the 20ns timebase scale is the optimal one to use (if possible) when glitch-hunting (i.e. smallest amount of dead time).

Here are my results. 20 ns , , 52700 with dots and 44500 with vectors on 1 mhz half scale...
but when push to full scale it drops to 38100 , so the vertical scale has also influence.

Same with 100 mhz, at 20 ns, 13600 half scale, and 10600 full scale, also freq. has influence.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #314 on: January 01, 2013, 04:09:43 pm »
but when push to full scale it drops to 38100 , so the vertical scale has also influence.

Everything can have an influence - even Menus displayed or not. Best case wfrm/s rates are often based on one - and only one - setting of ALL parameters on the scope.
 

Offline scummos

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
  • Country: de
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #315 on: January 01, 2013, 04:12:03 pm »
BTW, I don't know how much of this exponentially-growing thread you've managed to cover, but in case you missed this post regarding the wfrm/s rate of the scope - it might be of interest to you. It shows that the 20ns timebase scale is the optimal one to use (if possible) when glitch-hunting (i.e. smallest amount of dead time).
Yeah, I had seen that post, thanks for pointing it out. (I haven't read all of the thread(s) tough, it's *really* large)
I'm not really hunting glitches currently, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how it all works, since I feel that is important when using an instrument, if only to avoid faulty measurements. It's neverthereless a nice bit of information that the waveform update rate is best at 20ns/div timescale.
Jabber: scummos@jabber.org
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #316 on: January 01, 2013, 04:15:20 pm »
Here's a "before" and "after" picture of how the fast waveform capture rate is showing clearly a glitch - and how the stopped scope is showing the final capture.

This is taken while the scope is running:



This is taken when the scope is stopped - showing exactly what is currently in sample memory:


« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 04:17:47 pm by marmad »
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #317 on: January 01, 2013, 04:26:47 pm »
BTW, in the interest of pushing the software I'm writing on more owners ;)  it takes the Rigol 15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick - and then, of course, there's the time needed to transfer the stick to a computer and read the file. It takes the Rigol UltraVision Utilities 2.3 seconds (using USB) to transfer the data to the PC and save it  :)
 

Offline Wim13

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Country: nl
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #318 on: January 01, 2013, 04:51:50 pm »
BTW, in the interest of pushing the software I'm writing on more owners ;)  it takes the Rigol 15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick - and then, of course, there's the time needed to transfer the stick to a computer and read the file. It takes the Rigol UltraVision Utilities 2.3 seconds (using USB) to transfer the data to the PC and save it  :)

Are using the Lan or the USB interface.., ?
I have only the IVI drivers loaded yet, could not download the Ultra Sigma software, the Rigol site is so slow.
Does your software run without the Rigol Ultra Sigma..?
 

Offline larsie

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 18
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #319 on: January 01, 2013, 05:12:29 pm »
BTW, in the interest of pushing the software I'm writing on more owners ;)  it takes the Rigol 15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick - and then, of course, there's the time needed to transfer the stick to a computer and read the file. It takes the Rigol UltraVision Utilities 2.3 seconds (using USB) to transfer the data to the PC and save it  :)

I can second this. The Marmad software tool is gold when wanting to take quick snapshots of the scope screen. The process is faster, easier and the resulting file is better for web (though there might be some setting I don't know about to fix the save-directly-to-usb-format for the more traditional usb stick storage).

The software is easy to install, free and works well. Just download the USB drivers (http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/3342) and download the files from Marmad's separate software-thread into a separate directory, and run it and it works.
 

Offline martinv

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 39
  • Country: us
    • mvforum
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #320 on: January 01, 2013, 05:24:57 pm »
DS2000 series owners check your heat sink clips!

Thanks for reporting this Martin. Unfortunately there's no easy way to check them without taking off that pesky sticker - aside from shaking the device - which might cause the problem.

I've never been a big fan of this method of spring retention - it's always seemed a little dubious to me. I've had them come off on three different motherboards over the years.

I just used a flashlight and looked through the vents as shown in one of the pics.  You can see all the clips and retainers this way, though it does take some work to get the viewing angle and flashlight angles...  I didn't remove my Void sticker.   The shaking I did was mostly just rolilng the parts around near the vents.  No where near what a real product verification vibration test would do:)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 05:30:02 pm by martinv »
 

Offline andersm

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1198
  • Country: fi
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #321 on: January 01, 2013, 05:54:33 pm »
Not tested yet - the parameters of this bug are still unknown - and I haven't had the time to do a thorough investigation. Perhaps you'd like to discover them?  ;)
Send me a scope and I'd be happy to.

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16272
  • Country: za
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #322 on: January 01, 2013, 05:58:21 pm »
Mike of Electricstuff.co.uk did do a neat little video of precisely how to get around that particular sticker, on a similar model as well. That was a fascination demo, very good and detailed.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #323 on: January 01, 2013, 05:59:40 pm »
Are using the Lan or the USB interface.., ?
I have only the IVI drivers loaded yet, could not download the Ultra Sigma software, the Rigol site is so slow.
Does your software run without the Rigol Ultra Sigma..?

@Wim: You can use either LAN or USB - although I didn't write any code for sniffing out LAN connections through VISA (which aren't quite as detectable as the USB plug and play) - so if the software doesn't find the LAN connection on it's own, just type the following string while inserting your own IP address in place of this sample one:     TCPIP::192.168.1.200::INSTR
But keep in mind - it takes 2.3 seconds for a screen grab over USB - and about 6 seconds via LAN. Not a big deal with a single capture - but if you want to compile an animated GIF from 1000 frames, it starts to add up.

BTW, there aren't IVI drivers for the DS2000 yet - so I'm not sure what you're referring to. This was one of the first things I asked my dealer about - and Rigol's response was:
"About IVI driver for DS2000, I note that R&D have put this in the plan list but the concrete date I still don't know. When its released we will put it on the website."

Yes, no need for Ultra Sigma - although it van be handy for debugging problems with the scope. Just NI-VISA runtime.
 

Offline Wim13

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Country: nl
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #324 on: January 01, 2013, 06:05:07 pm »
@ Marmad, its working, using Visa511runtime as driver.

Windows XP 32 bit, and via TCP/IP

The TCP-Ip command was on the info page of the scoop when you open the browser page.

And you can run more then once, i have now open three times
with different info. We will play with the software.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 07:48:51 pm by Wim13 »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf