REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol

[martinv]

Why doesn't the DSO show "T'D" ? ,Triggered , with the peak of wave well above trigger level

I'm not sure why, but if you move the trigger up any more it will lose trigger.  It's acting as though the real trigger level is lower than the displayed trigger level.   This is how it's working on my scope anyway.  Note I have not been running the calibration routine as I don't want to lose the trial features.  Not sure if this could be a factor.

[TP]

Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point, see att. picture, that little peak on the middle
of the screen on the top of the sinus.

It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

My scope does the same thing and I think martinv's explanation is correct.  The scope is triggering on noise on top of the peak of the sine wave (there's apparently an offset for these tiny voltages).  This noise shows as a peak at the trigger point because it survives the averaging, as it is correlated because it's triggering on that.  But away from the trigger time, the noise is not correlated so it gets averaged out.  So I think it's just an artifact of the trigger/averaging process and not a bug.

[Wim13]

Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point,

DS2072 Fw1.00.02 for clarity, I suggest prefix with Model and FW

What does the '*' mean on the "700 pts*"?

Why doesn't the DSO show "T'D" ? ,Triggered , with the peak of wave well above trigger level

I never see "RUN", on top left of my DSO

I only see AUTO, |AUTO| reversed, and T'D when in Auto
  Maybe changed in your later FW?

In the user guide, page 1-22 there is also stop and run possible..
i must say it is the first time i saw run also over there, the user guide dont tell much about it.

And the 700* is only in auto mode for memory, cant find any explanation.

[Wim13]

Strange hat,

My scope does the same thing and I think martinv's explanation is correct.  The scope is triggering on noise on top of the peak of the sine wave (there's apparently an offset for these tiny voltages).  This noise shows as a peak at the trigger point because it survives the averaging, as it is correlated because it's triggering on that.  But away from the trigger time, the noise is not correlated so it gets averaged out.  So I think it's just an artifact of the trigger/averaging process and not a bug.

I also do not think it is a bug, but search for an explanation.
The trigger has no connection with the avarage, and the trigger is always in this case in the middle,
so for the trigger it is a almost a fix point, for the avarage not.

But you also see it with avarage off, only more difficult to see

[martinv]

I also do not think it is a bug, but search for an explanation.
The trigger has no connection with the avarage, and the trigger is always in this case in the middle,
so for the trigger it is a almost a fix point, for the avarage not.

But you also see it with avarage off, only more difficult to see

Even without averaging, it is still triggering on the peak of the noise.  Probably less noticable without averaging because it becomes more hidden in the noise. (Assuming your waveform is noisy like mine when averaging is off). 
I don't recall seeing this effect on the Tektronix scopes at my work place, but I don't think I ever looked at such weak signals on them. 

[dougg]

Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point, see att. picture, that little peak on the middle
of the screen on the top of the sinus.

It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

Another observation is that the 10 MHz sine wave is not at a sufficient level to have its frequency counted: "< 15 Hz".

[Wim13]

Strange hat,

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

Another observation is that the 10 MHz sine wave is not at a sufficient level to have its frequency counted: "< 15 Hz".

The counter needs some level to operate, even if you have a strong signal,
and turn down the sensitivity of the selected channel, the counter goes off.

[Teneyes]

Strange hat, and now a Ditch
It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

I'm DS2072   FW=1.00.02  Trial options
I see this as the compilation of 2 criteria, averaging signal But only show the peak trigger point at the center of the screen. So the high point is always stable where as the  rest is averaged.
in the 1st display I show just noise but the Hat is there , 8 sample averaging
(Note at 50ns , 700 pts memory)

In the 2nd display I show using runt  triggering and the trigger window levels
(Note at 20ns , displays 700 pts* memory)

In the 3rd display I show, using runt  triggering ,   a "Ditch"
Is the "Ditch" a Glitch in the software?   

[EV]

Strange hat,

DS2202   FW=1.00.05, BW limit set to 20 MHz. There is some offset present too. 

[martinv]

(different topic from the last several posts)
I have a question about the Record/Play back functions.  I tried using the serial decode function and found about the maximum I could fit on 1 screen is as shown in the attached picture.

Now I can zoom much further out in the horizontal scale and capture a huge chuck of data then zoom back in to read/decode it. 
I figured this would be a great use for the record and playback,  but I discovered large gaps of lost data between each recorded frame/(screen).  I'm assuming this is normal?

So i'm back to the zoom way out, grab a screen with max data points, then zoom back in to read/decode.   
Instead of scrolling with the tiny horizontal knob, WHY can't this nice big jog wheel be used to scroll quickly forward and back instead of using the little horizontal knob.  Wouldn't this be a huge improvement? Perhaps this could included in a future update.   I feel like hooking up my cordless drill to the Horizontal knob sometimes:)   
I don't have much experience in capturing/decoding data, so please let me know your thoughts and preffered methods of doing this.   
What are some of the other uses for the record/playback feature? 

[JOHNJB]

So it looks that the bandwidth at the BNC connector is 200 Mhz at -3 db,
if you ingnore the impedance changes at the BNC input.
Keep in mind that it is a 1 Mohm 18 pf input. The scoops >200 Mhz
have also 50 ohms inputs.

Anyone who can verify ??

I have tested the BW of my DS2102
with some nice results, summarizing:

BW in BNC= 190Mhz.
BW in 1/10 probe = 244Mhz.

Trigger OK just 375Mhz.
Counter just 410Mhz - accuracy -0,+2 last digit.

[marmad]

And the 700* is only in auto mode for memory, cant find any explanation.

It means <= 700 bytes. Depending on the timebase setting, frame recording, and other settings, the sample size can continue to drop in AUTO mode - following the defined scale: 560 -> 140 -> (70) -> 56 bytes - which appears to be the smallest size used - which equals 4 points per division.

If you are seeing strange artifacts (like this 'hat') you are describing when at "700*" - you should first determine exactly how many points are being used to define this artifact (which might come from aliasing). This is easy to do by switching to dot mode and stopping the DSO when the "700*" is displayed. At these lower sample settings, it's often easy to count the points per division.

You can also see the actual sample size when at "700* by running my Read Memory Test  - the real size being reported to the STATUS command.

[marmad]

I figured this would be a great use for the record and playback,  but I discovered large gaps of lost data between each recorded frame/(screen).  I'm assuming this is normal?

Not normal, no, unless it's what you wanted - or you didn't quite understand how the recording works. The DSO records each frame when triggered (with a possible delay interval before re-arming the trigger).  If I wanted to capture, for example, loads of I2C data - I might set up the I2C trigger so that it would record a frame for each packet. A slow recurring trigger will mean slow recording, with lots of time between - fast recurring triggers the opposite. Bigger memory depths will mean less possible frames - but more data per frame. The fastest possible record rate is limited by the waveform capture rate at any particular timebase setting (i.e. fastest record rates are at 20ns).

Instead of scrolling with the tiny horizontal knob, WHY can't this nice big jog wheel be used to scroll quickly forward and back instead of using the little horizontal knob.  Wouldn't this be a huge improvement?

Hmm... I'm not exactly sure what you're doing when "zooming" - but in fact, you CAN use the 'big jog wheel' for doing exactly what you're talking about in Delayed Sweep mode (windowed zoom). You actually have three distinct controls you can use: the Navigation Knob, the Navigation Wheel, and the Horizontal Position Knob. If you happen to be both frame recording AND in delayed sweep - the Navigation Knob and Wheel become dedicated to frame playback - and only the Hor.Position knob is then used for moving the delay offset (zoom window).

[EV]

I have now got the Rigol 50 ohm feed thru terminator. In the first picture is sweep from 1 MHz to 160 MHz using this terminator. The change between max and min level is under 1 dB and compared to 1 MHz level the change is under 0.5 dB.

In the second picture is the same sweep with T-Adapter and 50 ohm terminator. There is no change in the curve, if feed thru terminator is used.

[Wim13]

And the 700* is only in auto mode for memory, cant find any explanation.

It means <= 700 bytes. Depending on the timebase setting, frame recording, and other settings, the sample size can continue to drop in AUTO mode - following the defined scale: 560 -> 140 -> (70) -> 56 bytes - which appears to be the smallest size used - which equals 4 points per division.

Thanks for the explanation, could not find it in the manual.

The 4 points per div is only for the 100 and 200 Mhz models,
The 2072 has only 5 nS per div

At 2 Gsa/s: is 2 samples per 1 nS, so 5 ns is 10 samples per div.
for the 14 div's i get 140 sample points.. as a minimum.

Note, the squares on the screen are not sqaure..
The screen is 15.4 at 8.4 cm, that is 1.1 cm and 1.05 cm

In the X-Y mode the screen is 7.7 and 7.2 cm, what is not a square.

[Wim13]

So it looks that the bandwidth at the BNC connector is 200 Mhz at -3 db,
if you ingnore the impedance changes at the BNC input.
Keep in mind that it is a 1 Mohm 18 pf input. The scoops >200 Mhz
have also 50 ohms inputs.

Anyone who can verify ??

I have tested the BW of my DS2102
with some nice results, summarizing:

BW in BNC= 190Mhz.
BW in 1/10 probe = 244Mhz.

Trigger OK just 375Mhz.
Counter just 410Mhz - accuracy -0,+2 last digit.

Thanks for the measurement..,
So the test on the BNC is almost the same,
Only on the probes, thats intresting, i cannot reproduce that.
How was you setup for the probe testing...??

[michi]

Hi Marmad, and everybody else

Based on your great review on the DS2072 and the posts to the EEVblog forum here, I decided to order the DS2072 for myself. Thank you all!

 - snip -

I'll update you as soon as the scope arrives. 

The scope arrived today, and here are the different software/hardware versions:

Software version: 00.00.01.00.02
Hardware Version: 1.1.0.0
FPGA version:
   SPU: 03.01.02
   WPU: 00.06.00
   CCU: 12.29.00
   MCU 00.05
Serial Number starts with DS2A1432 (2012, week 32)

When I started it up, it showed a remaining 2154 minutes of trial options and I immediately tried to get most out of the option time I have. I am doing I2C analysis, and I am learning to use the record functionality.
The fan is louder than I expected but still OK.
I noticed that when working with I2C decoding, sometimes the decoding stops working (when Power Cycling, or when changing display type from Vector to Dots), but switching "BusStatus" off and on again, solved the problem and it works fine again.

After two fun hours with the DSO, I can make two conclusions:
a) the scope is really fun to work with and
b) for some reason my Basic Micro ARC32 controller seems to always set the first bit to high in each byte read from I2C - I have absolutely no clue why.

ps. I added a screenshot to show an example of I2C decoding 

[marmad]

After two fun hours with the DSO, I can make two conclusions:
a) the scope is really fun to work with and
b) for some reason my Basic Micro ARC32 controller seems to always set the first bit to high in each byte read from I2C - I have absolutely no clue why.

ps. I added a screenshot to show an example of I2C decoding 

Welcome, michi - and thanks for your initial thoughts.

[ve7xen]

After a bit of a headache with UPS I received my DS2072 today from Tequipment! To my surprise it seems I've got an even older firmware version than you guys are getting (if I'm reading it right), 00.00.01:


I wanted to characterize the scope so I did some measurements with my HP 8657A signal generator using 1m of RG58A/U, I wanted to terminate it to 50R but my BNC tee is not up to the job and I don't have a thru. Unfortunately the flatness of the generator isn't very good without termination, so I won't post numeric results right now. If anyone knows a good source for decent BNC 50R thrus that aren't $50 I'd appreciate it.

• All features of the scope seem to work well up to 450MHz or so, with the expected attenuation. The counter and trigger start to get flaky much past that
• CH2 on my unit seems to have very slightly less high frequency attenuation.
• There is an ~450uV DC offset in AC and DC coupled mode on CH1, CH2 is fine
• The trigger seems to work well at voltages about as low as the scope can measure, I was able to get it to trigger reliably at 2mVpp, below that I'm not sure if it's my test cabling or the scope's self noise that's the problem.

I'm going to have a play with the I2C and SPI triggering and decoding and possibly make a video on them.

Overall I'm pretty impressed with the 'scope from the past couple of hours exploring. My biggest disappointment is probably the image capture features. Capturing a PNG file to the USB stick takes like 45 seconds! BMP is faster but still quite a few seconds. I was expecting the 'print' button to be pretty much instant. Copying over the network using RUU (this is great! thanks!) isn't much faster, but I do like the idea of having a network connected 'scope .

Now to figure out how to defeat the trial period and get 200MHz bandwidth!

[EV]

If anyone knows a good source for decent BNC 50R thrus that aren't $50 I'd appreciate it.

It is here at accessories $ 25.

http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/ds2072/

[ve7xen]

See
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg172218/#msg172218

for acess to real firmware version number

Thanks Teneyes, I did read talk about this special menu but I thought it was only for upgrading for some reason. Weird that they'd obscure this... anyway I have the same version 1.00.02 that everyone else has.

EV thanks for the tip.

[kape]

Hi,

I'm planning to buy a new scope and been thinking whether to get the Owon SDS7102V or Rigol DS2072. The higher bandwidth of Owon is a big plus (-3dB point somewhere near 150MHz), but hunting some random glitches seems to be better in DS2072.
Has anybody measured the actual bandwidth of DS2072? At what frequency might this -3dB point be?

There's of course price difference between these two, but I'd like to by a scope which is usable for many years to come and could be used for various needs.
What might be the best place to purchase DS2072 in Europe (I live in Finland) ? I've checked the Batronix, but are there some other sellers with better price?
I'm thinking that if I buy Owon now, would I find myself buying a better scope after some time...of course battery operation and VGA are nice goodies.

[ve7xen]

I'm planning to buy a new scope and been thinking whether to get the Owon SDS7102V or Rigol DS2072. The higher bandwidth of Owon is a big plus (-3dB point somewhere near 150MHz), but hunting some random glitches seems to be better in DS2072.
Has anybody measured the actual bandwidth of DS2072? At what frequency might this -3dB point be?

Mine is around 100MHz. It looks like it's probably the same hardware as the higher bandwidth models though, so there may be a software or hardware hack.

[marmad]

Overall I'm pretty impressed with the 'scope from the past couple of hours exploring. My biggest disappointment is probably the image capture features. Capturing a PNG file to the USB stick takes like 45 seconds! BMP is faster but still quite a few seconds. I was expecting the 'print' button to be pretty much instant. Copying over the network using RUU (this is great! thanks!) isn't much faster, but I do like the idea of having a network connected 'scope .

How could BMPs be faster than PNGs? They are often ~100x bigger - and writing to an external device usually requires more time than processing - although I can't say I've actually timed saving BMPs on the DS2000. Also, I don't know if the brand of USB stick you're using (or FW 01.00.02) affects save/transfer rates - but my timed speeds are:

My Rigol takes ~15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick.

The Rigol UltraVision Utilities take ~2.3 seconds using USB to transfer, convert & save a BMP (all bitmap transfers from the DSO are BMP - conversion to other formats is handled by RUU).

RUU takes ~6 seconds using LAN to transfer, convert & save a BMP.


I would say that if your rates while using RUU are much longer than what is mentioned above, either there is an unreported FW problem in 01.00.02 - or something is wrong with your DSO/connection/network setup.

[marmad]

What might be the best place to purchase DS2072 in Europe (I live in Finland) ? I've checked the Batronix, but are there some other sellers with better price?

Well, as I mentioned in the video and a couple of times since, I recommend people buying in the EU use EEVBlog member drieg. Same price/free shipping as Batronix (I think the price is fixed in the EU - same as in NA)- but much better before/after sales support. Drieg is the one testing and reporting all of the bugs we discover here on the blog to Rigol - and I gather he is perhaps the biggest expert here on all things Rigol.

I bought the DS1052E I owned briefly from Batronix - and my DS2072 from his company - and there can be no comparison as to knowledge/support.