Covid 19 virus

[-gb-]

Hello and greetings from germany. I want to share  one thing which i think is important and is not understood in europe.

Here the Media and politics say: Don't wear the Mask, the mask doesn't protect you. only wear the mask if you are infected.

Yes, right, the mask doesn't protect you if you are not infected. But, the mask, even cheap and selfbuilt masks, protect others if you are infected and wear it.

But corona is transmitted absolutely mostly by peaple who do NOT feel sick and don't think they are infected. So they don't wear the mask.

But wehen everybody has to wear the mask, then automatically all those infected peaple who cannot know thar they are infected, would also wear the mask.

I think this is THE main difference between the west and asian countries like china and southkorea.

So wear the mask, even if you feel good, because you cannot know if you are transmitting the virus or not. You don't wear the mask to protect you, but to protect everyone else in case you are infected. So everyone should wear the mask.

And change the mask regularly. When you wake up, build yourself 5 or so Masks from kitchen roll paper and use the masks during the day. use them when you are with other people. and flush used masks in the toilette. (just the paper, not the string).

Just do it! Thank you! Sarry for my bad english. Stay well.

[paulca]

Leave the masks for those people that need them most.  They are in seriously finite supply.

Best advice to sum what you should do up is this:

If you want to slow the spread of the virus you have to act as if you already have it.

[-gb-]

Leave the masks for those people that need them most.  They are in seriously finite supply.

Yes, build your own masks. The mask is not to protect you, so you don't need good expensive masks. Selfbuilt masks will protect others relatively good if you are infected and wear them.

If you want to slow the spread of the virus you have to act as if you already have it.

Exactly! So ... wear the mask as everyone sould do who is infected. Wear selfbuilt masks like the people in china and southkorea are doing.

[iMo]

Wearing masks (even DIY) is absolutely essential !!!
Who is saying it is not is an idiot !!!

https://fastlifehacks.com/n95-vs-ffp/

PS: an absolutely primitive DIY mask has an effectiveness (to stop droplets) of about 25%.
That is a pretty good number when talking statistics of random processes..

[-gb-]

Here in Europe and in the US they are saying you shouldn't wear the mask because they will not PROTECT YOU.

It is NOT about protecting YOU. it is for protecting ALL OTHERS if you were infected.

Yes, there is a shortage. so build your own masks.

Please: Share the information, this thought.

Sidenote, why do you have a very good mask for protecting YOUSELF, but a selfbuild will be good enought to protect others from you?

If you want to protect yourself, you want the mask to filter out very tiny droplets with the virus. and you breath normal. Norman breathing is slow. so if the mask is not perfectly tight at the edges, the air gets sucked around the filter and with the air the droplets.

But if you are ill and cough and sneeze, you droplets get shot out very fast. not around your cheap selfbuilt mask, even if there is an airgap at the sides. the droplets get shot in the paperfilter from kitchenroll and get not in the air.

So build you masks. they are good to protect others from you. Behave as if you were infected even if you feel good.

Sidenote2:
I think there might be a mental difference between people in europe and asia. Here the society is very selfish. I think people don't want to wear the mask if it is not fro there own protection. In asia the society seems to me as a german very less egoistic but the whole people is more important. so the asien men/women is more likely to wear the mask because of the greater good to protect society.
This is just my feeling from germany where people still shake hands with the words "i don't feel ill, how likely can it be that I am infected?" But corona is exactly spread by this group of people. People who feel goot but are infected because they
a) are in the incubation phase or
b) have a very mild corona.

[paulca]

If you have the virus or symptoms mask or not stay the fuck home and away from others.  It's not rocket science.

Do we need governments to declare marshal law and arrest people for being morons?

[GlennSprigg]

Wearing masks (even DIY) is absolutely essential !!!
Who is saying it is not is an idiot !!!

https://fastlifehacks.com/n95-vs-ffp/

It makes me chuckle when everyone wears masks. Like a surgeon operating on someone, the mask stops them breathing ON to the patient/surgical-opening, not the other way around. Unless it is a 'specialized' mask, that virtually hermetically seals around the wearers nose/mouth, they are breathing in general 'air' all around the masks edges!!.... but I guess it's better than nothing...

MY MAIN reason for commenting here though, is that I'm sure I've missed a lot of points in the last 17 pages, but WHY was/is Italy hit so hard???  It seems disproportionate regarding the vast number of deaths there, compared to the rest of the world??  Were they totally UN-prepared, didn't take it serious, didn't have the resources???  I don't understand!!

[iMo]

The attitude changes from day to day (an EU capitol city here).
A week back people where watching others with masks with a suspicion ("OMG, are they infected??")
I've just returned from shopping (groceries full of people and goods, incl TP) and I've seen maybe 2 people not wearing masks. Interestingly many were wearing gloves as well.
PS: you are required to wear a mask when entering a bus, train, tram here, btw.

[-gb-]

If you have the virus or symptoms mask or not stay the fuck home and away from others.  It's not rocket science.

It seems you don't understand.

Corona has a very long incubation time and even after this incubation time many people with corona don't feel ill. So there are many people who don't knot that they are transmitting the virus because they CAN'T know.

The ill corona pations are not transmitting because they stay at home or are in hospital. It is EXACTLY the people who feel fine but are infected who are transmitting the virus.

The sould wear masks of course and to archive that, EVERYONE has to wear a mask. ever if it is selfbuilt. Because if everyone wears the mask, then automatically everyone who is feeling goot but is actually infected would also wear the mask.

so wear the mask, even if you feel good because you cannot know that you are not infected. behave as if you were infected.

[-gb-]

Like a surgeon operating on someone, the mask stops them breathing ON to the patient/surgical-opening, not the other way around.

Exactly this is why everyone should wear the mask. you should not wear the mask for your own protection, but because you might be infected. with corona you cannot know that you are currently not infected and transmitting, even if you feel good. so wear the mask to protect others from you.

PS: you are required to wear a mask when entering a bus, train, tram here, btw.

Not here in southern germany. and not in the US.

[thinkfat]

MY MAIN reason for commenting here though, is that I'm sure I've missed a lot of points in the last 17 pages, but WHY was/is Italy hit so hard???  It seems disproportionate regarding the vast number of deaths there, compared to the rest of the world??  Were they totally UN-prepared, didn't take it serious, didn't have the resources???  I don't understand!!

As far as I understand, Italy was taken by surprise. There were no tests in the beginning at all and they noticed the spread only from testing people who died of pneumonia, because they saw the number spiking.

[paulca]

Okay, -gb-, let me just take the advice of someone on the internet and ignore all the official information.  Yea. 

I'll just go and join a few Facebook groups for extra advice and see if "Karen on facebook" knows better too.

As I said, the only way to slow it is to act as if you already have it.  Unless being around other people is ABSOLUTELY essential it should be avoided.  If you are around other people, wash your hands often.  If you want to make a home made mask, knock yourself out.

[paulca]

MY MAIN reason for commenting here though, is that I'm sure I've missed a lot of points in the last 17 pages, but WHY was/is Italy hit so hard???  It seems disproportionate regarding the vast number of deaths there, compared to the rest of the world??  Were they totally UN-prepared, didn't take it serious, didn't have the resources???  I don't understand!!

As far as I understand, Italy was taken by surprise. There were no tests in the beginning at all and they noticed the spread only from testing people who died of pneumonia, because they saw the number spiking.

They also, apparently, have the oldest population in Europe.  The triaging of patients was no managed well, the hospitals over flowed and people who needed care could not get it.

[nctnico]

If you have the virus or symptoms mask or not stay the fuck home and away from others.  It's not rocket science.

It seems you don't understand.

Corona has a very long incubation time and even after this incubation time many people with corona don't feel ill. So there are many people who don't knot that they are transmitting the virus because they CAN'T know.

The ill corona pations are not transmitting because they stay at home or are in hospital. It is EXACTLY the people who feel fine but are infected who are transmitting the virus.

The sould wear masks of course and to archive that, EVERYONE has to wear a mask. ever if it is selfbuilt. Because if everyone wears the mask, then automatically everyone who is feeling goot but is actually infected would also wear the mask.

It is not going to help. The virus is already lingering in too many people. Even if the virus is blocked right now it will pop-up later on. The Corona virus is going to become seasonal flu. The only way out is to slow down the spread to a pace where the health services can keep up and develop a vaccine for old and weak people.

[Bud]

Another effective method might be to post on forum a photo of the face of their hoarders with their trolley of loot.

Yes yes I got one !

[-gb-]

Okay, -gb-, let me just take the advice of someone on the internet and ignore all the official information.

No, you shouldn't. you should start thinking. The official advice is to not wear the mask becaus it will not protect you. that is absolutely right. but the official advice is not considering, that there are other reasons to wear the mask. exactly that others will be protectet if you are infected and wear the mask.

that is also what officials say, you shoulkd wear the mask if you are infected. but with corona, infected persons have for about a week not method ob knowing that they are infected. they feel fine. but they are infected and should wear the mask as officials say. so ... how do we achieve that hey who caanot know they are infected all wear masks? Right, we all wear masks becaus then they will be includes ans also will wear the mask.
Think! It is not magic. but this thought is completely missing in the media.

[-gb-]

It is not going to help. The virus is already lingering in too many people. Even if the virus is blocked right now it will pop-up later on.

very right. but now it should be contained that the hospitals are not beeing overrun. loot at italy. they had between 2% and 3% dead persons among all infected. after arond 2nd march, the hospitals were overrun and now the have 7.7% dead of all infected. http://www.salute.gov.it/portale/nuovocoronavirus/dettaglioContenutiNuovoCoronavirus.jsp?lingua=italiano&id=5351&area=nuovoCoronavirus&menu=vuoto
2158 dead among 27980 totally infected is 7.71%.

This too much, we cannot risk that. we should at least try to contain corona, keep the number of infected at any time low ... till there ia a medicine.

China had the total quarantine on many citys. they now have loosened up thes method, because their health system is no longer overrun. but they still habe some new infected every day. to prevent the epidemic from starting again they have to continue with some actions till there is a medicine. so what we will see from china and southkorea is, that even as the have stopped the initial outbreak, they will continue to wear all masks so long till there is a medcine. otherwise the epidemic will start again.

[iMo]

Italy and quarantine (quaranta giorni, meaning "forty days") - a pretty long history, Italy has been a leading country in coping with diseases usually coming form Asia and Far East via maritime transport:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarantine

[paulca]

Okay, -gb-, let me just take the advice of someone on the internet and ignore all the official information.

No, you shouldn't. you should start thinking. The official advice is to not wear the mask becaus it will not protect you. that is absolutely right. but the official advice is not considering, that there are other reasons to wear the mask. exactly that others will be protectet if you are infected and wear the mask.

Clearly you "Did your research!" Karen.

[GlennSprigg]

Ok. One last point though. Our Prime Minister here in Australia has admitted, in being honest, that virtually nothing is going to stop the spread of the virus. The IMPORTANT point he made, is that we are/need to control it on a "Flatter Curve", than otherwise, so that it remains manageable within the hospital/medical system, regarding beds/resources etc. for the duration.

[Zucca]

Italy was hitten so hard because we realized too late what was going on. I have also to say that we are very transpaternt with the numbers and we have nothing to hide.

Just please stay home.

This is the only defence we have.

PS: The virus is getting close to my family in Italy right now, it's not funny. Once it knocks on your door, it's different than reading the news.

[-gb-]

The IMPORTANT point he made, is that we are/need to control it on a "Flatter Curve", than otherwise, so that it remains manageable within the hospital/medical system, regarding beds/resources etc. for the duration.

Yes, that is the Western methon. the epidemic will stop on ITS OWN if 2/3 of the people were infected. that is true. but:

- there are other methods of stopping it, look at china/southkorea
- calculate the number of the dead even if the hospitals were not overrun and a very optimistic low 1% of all infected will die.
- calculate the timeframe.

here in germany we are about 80 million. 2/3 is around 50 million. about 5% (very optimistic) of the infected will need intensiv care at a hospital. that are 2.5 Million. so even if we succeed and flatten the curve to fully two (2) years. than that means, that there will be 2.5 Million/730 Days = about 3 000 NEW cases for intensive care EVERY DAY - for two years. that simply is too much. yes, you could flatten the curve, but not over 2 years but over 5 or 10 years. during that time, some measures must be done, that the number of infected does not rise.

So i think the only practical method is doing it als china has done. initially lower the number of infected with harsh methods. and then prevent the epidemic from starting again by prolonging some methods like wearing masks and hygiene/behavioral methods. this methods must remain in place till there is a vaccination AND the riskgroups are vaccinated. or till there is a medcine which can cure infected persons.

With this you don't have to infect 2/3 of the people. In Chine, 80 000 infected are less than 0.1% of all chinese. and they have stopped it. yes, they have new cases, but since the continue to have infection reducing methods like wearing masks, there healthsystem will not be overrun again. we should leran from them an do the same.

caveat:
The economics will break down very hard if we go the china way. but only fopr around 1 or two months. as we see, factorys in china are opening again. if we accept 2/3 of our people to infect, we accept many more dead, but economic will not break down so hard.

[Bud]

BBC suggested air pollution in northern Italy caused lung problems in general and that contributed to high mortality from the virus. Is that right?

[nctnico]

PS: The virus is getting close to my family in Italy right now, it's not funny. Once he knocks on your door, it's different than reading the news.

My estimation is that by this time next year we all know someone personally who has died from the Corona virus.

[-gb-]

BBC suggested air pollution in northern Italy caused lung problems in general and that contributed to high mortality from the virus. Is that right?

Maybe, but the more hard reasons are:

- the medical system is overrun.
at the begin of the epidemic, the mortality in italy was not higher than it is currently in france or spain. between 2% and 3%. then since 2nd march it is rising because the medical system is overrun.
Here are the numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Italy
Today the mortality is at 7.7% http://www.salute.gov.it/portale/nuovocoronavirus/dettaglioContenutiNuovoCoronavirus.jsp?lingua=italiano&id=5351&area=nuovoCoronavirus&menu=vuoto

- in italy there live more old people than in china. look at these two images i attatched.