NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017

[EEVblog]

Amazing what they did with a Motorola 68000 processor. My Tektronix TDS784A only has a 68020 running at 16MHz but could capture over 350,000 waveforms per second !!

It wouldn't be the 68020 doing that waveform update rate.

[Fungus]

... So given these clues it looks like Keysight could easily target $300 for the base model but it would be truly industry changing if in the $200, because then it would be position to take on the entire hobby market DSO as well, as far down as the likes of DSO nanos.

Come on. How would they explain that pricing to their customers buying the high-end scopes?! They need to keep some consistency in their overall pricing structure, and I don't see them re-positioning Keysight as the cheapjack of oscilloscopes.

Yep.

This is the real problem, they have to keep an eye on their expensive gear so the cheap stuff has to be crippled in some way.

It makes sense that this is targeted at the "education" market. You can bet it will be heavily discounted there, or at least that all options will be thrown in for free. The idea will be to fill up the educational institutes with "Keysight" logos.

(In fact that might be the raison d'etre of this model, they might not care about hobbyists)

There's only one company who really does the same thing for hobbyists but people get angry if I mention them. Is it a coincidence that only the bottom-end model is hackable, that all the 'MSO' and 'S' versions aren't? Nope.

[rf-loop]

Amazing what they did with a Motorola 68000 processor. My Tektronix TDS784A only has a 68020 running at 16MHz but could capture over 350,000 waveforms per second !!

It wouldn't be the 68020 doing that waveform update rate.

It is not 68020 what can do it. But TDS784A can -  regardless of the fact that there is also 68020.

There is DPX waveform imaging processor ("Digital Phosphor" engine) just after ADC.
And IT can do it.

Bit more explanation how it works.
http://www.mksa.dii.univpm.it/biblioteca/sala_tecnica/scaffale_strumenti/Oscilloscopi/ApplNote/DPO.pdf

In page 2 there is explanation. Useful reading for understanding fundamentals how things work.

"The heart of the DPO is the DPX™ waveform imaging processor; a proprietary ASIC that rasterizes the digitized.....  " 

[nctnico]

You're happy to trade off realtime performance for increased memory depth, and there are products which allow you to do this. Its not a major failing of the Keysight products products that don't offer this control as it brings other benefits to trade off against which will be valued differently by different customers.

That is a misconception. Keysight scopes always use the maximum memory available so their method actually offers slower realtime performance (update rate) compared to other scopes which allow to use shorter memory lengths. Remember that the waveform update rate is a function of the memory length and samplerate.

[snoopy]

Amazing what they did with a Motorola 68000 processor. My Tektronix TDS784A only has a 68020 running at 16MHz but could capture over 350,000 waveforms per second !!

It wouldn't be the 68020 doing that waveform update rate.

Yes it would only be responsible for updating the display and other slower processes. There is also a DSP in it probably doing all of the maths and FFT etc but the main acquisition would be done by ASICs. This is a scope worthy of a tear down if you can get your hands on one. Since this scope came out around 1996 I think Tek were doing ultra fast waveform update rates way before anyone else. With some of their newer scopes they kind of went backwards in terms of performance.

cheers

[snoopy]

Amazing what they did with a Motorola 68000 processor. My Tektronix TDS784A only has a 68020 running at 16MHz but could capture over 350,000 waveforms per second !!

It wouldn't be the 68020 doing that waveform update rate.

It is not 68020 what can do it. But TDS784A can -  regardless of the fact that there is also 68020.

There is DPX waveform imaging processor ("Digital Phosphor" engine) just after ADC.
And IT can do it.

Bit more explanation how it works.
http://www.mksa.dii.univpm.it/biblioteca/sala_tecnica/scaffale_strumenti/Oscilloscopi/ApplNote/DPO.pdf

In page 2 there is explanation. Useful reading for understanding fundamentals how things work.

"The heart of the DPO is the DPX™ waveform imaging processor; a proprietary ASIC that rasterizes the digitized.....  "

The DPO feature came out in the D versions of the scopes. I have the A version which has InstaVu and still has the fast update rates. There is also a C version which had a 68040 running at 25MHz but I don't think it had DPO yet.

cheers

[saturation]

Fungus has repeated what is in the data sheet, missing capabilities in the low end present in the high end.  There is no competition within their DSO model lines, but there is cross over of some features in low end to high end, say for example bandwidth, basic math, FFT or even the AWG option.  So one has an option to say, get a option laden low end model, versus a stripped high end model, as your needs dictate just like many other T&M manufacturers offer in their products too.

But, what Keysight can do to shake up the industry, and what Dave hints may likely be the case, is redefine the importance of the bottom end by provide a high quality entry level scope, thus "blessing" the bottom as something not to be ignored.   

-or-

That is all part of a marketing spiel, gamble or a bit of everything.

The existing entry level DSO in the catalog as of now, the 1000, is still a rebadged Rigol 1000 series built during the Agilent cooperation days.  They could simply be replacing it and moving design in house [ no more OEM rebadge and no more IP theft ]  so it needs a total redesign, and a Keysight imprimatur, ergo, the 1000x series.  The data sheet shows the 1000x is more like an updated Rigol 1052e with some added features, than a Rigol 1054z.  But they can't just make a 1052e clone because then why would you get one, if Rigol is cheaper and about the same, so build it around what is proprietary Keysight, the Keysight "MegaZoom IV custom ASIC".  In addition, play Rigol at its own game, and undercut Rigol's prices so far down, using newer technology to reduce costs [ like Zynq was to Instek] over the 10 yr old 1052e design.

The March introduction is interesting, the school year will be ending April 2017, just in time for the summer break, and new purchase cycles, and about now the original aging 1000 Agilents in labs are due for replacement and enough time for faculty to go through new offerings.  Good timing?

Its all speculation but in the end, but Keysight does not have to justify pricing or product strategy to anyone.  Its up to you the buyer, to decide how to react to their offerings.

... So given these clues it looks like Keysight could easily target $300 for the base model but it would be truly industry changing if in the $200, because then it would be position to take on the entire hobby market DSO as well, as far down as the likes of DSO nanos.

Come on. How would they explain that pricing to their customers buying the high-end scopes?! They need to keep some consistency in their overall pricing structure, and I don't see them re-positioning Keysight as the cheapjack of oscilloscopes.

Yep.

This is the real problem, they have to keep an eye on their expensive gear so the cheap stuff has to be crippled in some way.

It makes sense that this is targeted at the "education" market. You can bet it will be heavily discounted there, or at least that all options will be thrown in for free. The idea will be to fill up the educational institutes with "Keysight" logos.

(In fact that might be the raison d'etre of this model, they might not care about hobbyists)

There's only one company who really does the same thing for hobbyists but people get angry if I mention them. Is it a coincidence that only the bottom-end model is hackable, that all the 'MSO' and 'S' versions aren't? Nope.

[Fungus]

But, what Keysight can do to shake up the industry, and what Dave hints may likely be the case, is redefine the importance of the bottom end by provide a high quality entry level scope, thus "blessing" the bottom as something not to be ignored.   

Let's see if that happens.

A few months ago people said exactly the same things about the new low-end Tek 'educational' oscilloscope. That Tek was a serious brand. The new 'scope would be rock solid, professional, bug free, etc. Everything those pesky Rigols aren't.

Then it was launched, and... the rest is comedy gold.

Edit: The thread is here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-tektronix-tbs2000-oscilloscopes/

[ebastler]

Its all speculation but in the end, but Keysight does not have to justify pricing or product strategy to anyone.  Its up to you the buyer, to decide how to react to their offerings.

My point was: If Keysight offers this scope at a bargain price, they will make their high-end customers very aware of the low material cost of Keysight DSOs, and what pricing is possible if you accept lower margins. They will create a perception that they are fleecing the high-end customers with inflated prices, relative to what they offer in the low end. I don't expect them to do that, but rather to keep a "healthy" ratio of high-end vs. low-end prices, in proportion with the perceived cost and value differences of the various scope families.

I still expect the price for a Keysight DSOX scope, 70 MHz with generator, to be closer to $1000 than to $200. I'm offering a bet: I will buy a new DSOX from you for $447 (which is the geometric median between the two) once it is out. If your low price estimate is right, you make a good deal; otherwise I will. 

But I do agree with you that this is all speculation at this point... 

[JPortici]

comedy gold it was... but after all, did we really expect something different from tek?

[tautech]

This thread is the classic candidate to be included in another recent one:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-wait-for-new-models/

And there will be other models of interest this year............can't wait, Dave might be busy this year doing teardowns and first impressions.
It will be good to see how this one measures up alongside the new KS:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-wait-for-new-models/msg1090385/#msg1090385

[JPortici]

this topic has the premises to become a 100+ pages like the rigol one

[ebastler]

this topic has the premises to become a 100+ pages like the rigol one

No, I think this one will peter out soon once the scope is released. 

[tautech]

this topic has the premises to become a 100+ pages like the rigol one

No, I think this one will peter out soon once the scope is released. 

Exactly.
Any of the other manufacturers could pour cold water on the new KS with a better specc'ed/priced model.
We're only 1 month into 2017 and who know what's just around the corner of new goodies for this year.

[ebastler]

Any of the other manufacturers could pour cold water on the new KS with a better specc'ed/priced model.
We're only 1 month into 2017 and who know what's just around the corner of new goodies for this year.

... and I can't figure out what manufacturer you might be thinking of... 

[tautech]

Any of the other manufacturers could pour cold water on the new KS with a better specc'ed/priced model.
We're only 1 month into 2017 and who know what's just around the corner of new goodies for this year.

... and I can't figure out what manufacturer you might be thinking of... 

Sure, but Siglent won't be the only one, they're all fighting for the EDU and hobbyist market.

[JPortici]

 
let's see if it will be as good as
(and if this one keysight will be as good as it promises to be)

[nctnico]

Its all speculation but in the end, but Keysight does not have to justify pricing or product strategy to anyone.  Its up to you the buyer, to decide how to react to their offerings.

My point was: If Keysight offers this scope at a bargain price, they will make their high-end customers very aware of the low material cost of Keysight DSOs, and what pricing is possible if you accept lower margins. They will create a perception that they are fleecing the high-end customers with inflated prices, relative to what they offer in the low end. I don't expect them to do that, but rather to keep a "healthy" ratio of high-end vs. low-end prices, in proportion with the perceived cost and value differences of the various scope families.

In an ideal world without competition that would be true but just look at the sheer amount of gear from GW Instek and Rigol coming from the ITT Tech Colleges auctions in the US. The competition for the educational market is obviously strong and Asian brands are clearly not off the table.

I was kinda hoping Keysight would introduce something radically new but instead they seem to follow Tektronix onto 'Rehash the old technology' street (which has a dead end).

[EEVblog]

Well, I just got the final datasheet with US pricing and I must say 
When I originally heard about this (and they asked for feedback on it) the base level price they were targeting was very competitive in the low end scope world.
And it still is, a bit more than I originally heard, but still a good base price. The problem is the feature set for the price.

This is clearly targeted at the educational market, more so than I thought, and a clear response to Tek's TBS1000 in many ways. Although Tek's courseware integration looks pretty impressive, I'm not sure what Agilent are offering there.
It will kick Tek's TBS1000 butt in almost every way, but I don't think the pricing and option structure will win out the budget market and that's a shame. Unless of course someone hacks the base model, then it will likely sell like wild fire if you want a 2CH budget scope.

[EEVblog]

I was kinda hoping Keysight would introduce something radically new but instead they seem to follow Tektronix onto 'Rehash the old technology' street (which has a dead end).

There is nothing wrong with that, because the Megazoom 4 ASIC and ADC front end has more than enough grunt to make a kick arse leading budget scope no one else can touch at present.
Just look what capabilities are in that MZ4 chipset:
4-5GS/s
4M point memory (just enough)
1M waveforms/sec updating
20MHz ARB Wavegen
Hardware real time serial decoding and triggering
Hardware real time FFT (64k)
16CH MSO input

It's all just sitting there in this new base model unit, for want of activation and having chosen the right physical form (e.g. no MSO input)

[nctnico]

Well that is one way of giving a positive spin to using a chip which is sitting on a shelve otherwise  For 100MHz you don't need a multi GHz samplerate (that just adds noise) and 1Mwaveforms/s is just a marketing gimmic. If you dig deeper you will find many things which are lesser in the Keysight oscilloscope range right up to the DSOX6000 series compared to other oscilloscope brands which use newer technology. The problem with creating highly integrated custom ASICs is that you need to sell a lot of them for a long time to make your money back. Meanwhile all real product innovation is on hold.

[AR]

Dave,

I think whats being said here is that there is a hole in the market for a good scope that has more grunt and memory than the MZ4 chipset can deliver, I think that with today's  technology this benchmark is achievable. as has been demonstrated by some B brand scopes that are out there. The custom MZ4 ASIC that Keysight use I know offers a complete solution, but I suspect this price / performance metric is fast approaching  the end of its life considering how old the chip is  (10 years).

Regards
Arthur   

[EEVblog]

I think whats being said here is that there is a hole in the market for a good scope that has more grunt and memory than the MZ4 chipset can deliver, I think that with today's  technology this benchmark is achievable. as has been demonstrated by some B brand scopes that are out there. The custom MZ4 ASIC that Keysight use I know offers a complete solution, but I suspect this price / performance metric is fast approaching  the end of its life considering how old the chip is  (10 years).

Yeah, I don't disagree.
I think the MZ4 is now about 6 years old?
I think I did some math in another thread and found they released a new Megazoom every 7 years on average?
I think the MZ4 can last them a few more years, especially in a low end market, it's just a matter of bang per buck.
I mean just image if they released this at the Rigol price point of $399 and it had the function gen and all options including memory and sample rate and update rate and decodes etc (which ultimately do not cost them anything in terms of build cost). It would take some serious beating by anyone.

[Someone]

You're happy to trade off realtime performance for increased memory depth, and there are products which allow you to do this. Its not a major failing of the Keysight products products that don't offer this control as it brings other benefits to trade off against which will be valued differently by different customers.

That is a misconception. Keysight scopes always use the maximum memory available so their method actually offers slower realtime performance (update rate) compared to other scopes which allow to use shorter memory lengths. Remember that the waveform update rate is a function of the memory length and samplerate.

Baloney, please point to some measurements of blind time to show where other scopes are offering more throughput. I've plotted the available information from the forum to help people visualise it:

Looks like a tiny portion where a rigol DS2000 could outperform a 3000X because its running with shorter memory (and showing less information in the process).

For 100MHz you don't need a multi GHz samplerate (that just adds noise) and 1Mwaveforms/s is just a marketing gimmic.

Back on that old chestnut? Sampling much higher than required allows you to filter the noise in the front end, running the same ADC at a lower rate would result in a higher noise in the result. The interleaved ADCs are already sampling much faster than GS/s and then distributing that down to a manageable rate for the rest of the system, Lecroy use the ability to reconfigure the same ADC and oversample with it to increase the ENOB and reduce noise:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-scope-lecroy-hdo9000/msg1032610/#msg1032610

[memset]

I think the MZ4 is now about 6 years old?
I think I did some math in another thread and found they released a new Megazoom every 7 years on average?

I'm not sure why anyone would need the new megazoom ASIC for Infiniivision-class devices with today's reasonably priced SoC + FPGA chips like Zync. Maybe if you're going to use 20GSa ADC in 3000X replacement...