Free Altium is Coming

[EEVblog]

What about parts ? Can you create & keep parts locally or do you also need to do this online?

Parts are online, it's part of their big community and tie-in with other data suppliers as you'll see when released.
Not sure if you can save them locally or export though. They said there was library compatibility with AD.

[ehughes]

[PUsh and Shove]


I will be at MakerFaire with an Exhibit (come and see the MonkeyJam).      I plan on visiting the booth.

I will beat Ben Jordan into submission at the Faire until they have this enabled.    This is a critical feature.  Programs such that don't do this are some primitive....    The router is such a big deal as it is a large part of your one's work.

Without push shove and multi-trace routine (it is really nice to grab 10 signals at once...),   the router turns into the crap that Diptrace, Eagle and KiCad have.

2 other features that are a must have:

1.)   All of the "Find Similar Object" and Global Replace,  SMART PASTE features.   These are killer productivity features....

2.)  The PCB design rules engine.

[GK]

All this forced sharing and community based crap reminds me of the frightening public dunny at the beach at Warnambool. I was camped out that way, on the "shipwreck coast" for one night, it was my only option besides the bushes (not very private on New Years Eve) and I have never seen anything like it. This public dunny had two intimately positioned toilet bowls per cubicle. The bowls were closely spaced at 90 degrees to each other, so that you could knock knees, hold hands or just gaze into the eyes of your dunny-buddy for the moment. I mean, what kind of sick f$%$ came up with that idea? It was almost 11 years ago now, but just thinking about that dunny still gives me the heebeegeeebies - conceivably more so than had I bumped into and subsequently escaped the clutches of a Cyberman or a Dalek that night.

It sounds to me like these are the kind of toilets that they would have installed at Altium headquarters. As a matter of fact, that is probably where they brainstorm most of their best ideas. And to think that some cranky stuck-in-the-mud's are still resisting the move to open office spaces! Being forced on every level to share your shit with and experience everyone else's - clearly, this is the way of the future.

[ehughes]

Parts are online, it's part of their big community and tie-in with other data suppliers as you'll see when released.

I hope they have a a part feedback system.    I make all my own parts as I am paranoid about using anything that I haven't verified.  I have been burned too many times but people who don't check their parts!

[EEVblog]

This is a critical feature.  Programs such that don't do this are some primitive....    The router is such a big deal as it is a large part of your one's work.

Funny how I survived just fine as a professional PCB layout designer for more than decade without a push'n'shove router.
Many PCB designers I know refuse to use it because they "don't want no stinking software moving my traces for me!"

Without push shove and multi-trace routine (it is really nice to grab 10 signals at once...),   the router turns into the crap that Diptrace, Eagle and KiCad have.

And last I checked they have pretty decent markets, markets that Altium want to get into.
It would be really nice if it had it, but I wouldn't say it's so essential people won't use it because it's missing.

2.)  The PCB design rules engine.

It's there. Not quite everything you get in AD, but all the usual stuff.
e.g. it won't do 3D clearance checking.

[GK]

Nothing is uglier than a schematic full of generic big-block I.C. symbols sporting a gazillion unused pins in less than ideal positions and subsequently wired together like spaghetti. For this reason I always generate my own neat schematic parts library for each schematic document anyway, and in the time that it would take to seek out and properly check the pin-out of a library part produced by someone else I could just as easily draw my own.

Library sharing is just another big smelly load of "lets all hold hands and feel nice" BS. Period.

[sca]

It looks to me as if Altium have quite neatly split the market, between toy customers who don't mind the risk of downtime, and people on a deadline with data security requirements, who'll just stick with the proper version. There's not a lot of overlap.

There is at least some overlap though - the paid versions of the likes of Eagle, DipTrace, Proteus are in there.

I work as a consultant full time, PCB layout is an important part of what I do, but it's an infrequent activity, much more time spent writing code for the stuff on the boards. As such, I'm quite happy to justify £1k - £1.5k on a paid version of (eg) Altium, if it offers signficant improvement. £6 - £7k is a completely different matter. I don't *think* I'm alone.

sca

[ehughes]

Funny how I survived just fine as a professional PCB layout designer for more than decade without a push'n'shove router.
Many PCB designers I know refuse to use it because they "don't want no stinking software moving my traces for me!"

I think it is a question of efficiency.   Having real time DRC just makes things so much faster.   Not only is the routing faster but clean up as well.      I just completed a  design with a high speed memory interface.    The push-shove differential router was really nice.   Sure you can screw with 200 traces manually to fix DRC errors, but I personally have more better uses of my time. 

At this point it is like arguing that coding without an editor that has syntax highlighting or shitting in an outhouse.   When I grew up we had one.    It is really nice that I have now have toilet and don't have to clean the stall.   It's call progress!

I personally don't mind the cloud stuff.    If you are "open sourcing" it,   you really shouldn't care about "protecting IP".   

As far as cloud based storage.   I have gotten used to Google docs,   MBED and dropbox.    It generally means that I have many backups.   Amazon AWS is many orders of magnitude more reliable at holding files than any kitchen table computer a Maker will use.

The reality is that 90% really like having pervasive access to files from any machine.,   It is the 10% that bitch the loudest.

The biggest beef I will have is that of version control.   I like to have a project repository with everything in it.  (Source, documentation, etc).     It is easy to life cycle manage something now with SVN.    If Altium's stuff is in the cloud,  that may make things a bit more difficult.

All it all, it is hard to complain about "free".   I will gladly use it (and pay for some extra features).    I just hope they don't neuter too much of the good stuff about Altium.

[DJohn]

I find it interesting that there's already a definite trend in the poll towards people not being interested at all, and almost no-one who would pay a small amount to have a non-cloud option.

If there was an affordable version with local saves, modest limitations, and a basic library, then I'd be interested.  I'd have a look at the free one to see what it's like, and if it's worth upgrading.  If I liked it, I'd be happy to give them some money.  That's what I did with Eagle.

But if the gap is between free cloud-only saves and the full version (I'm assuming that if I have to ask the price, I can't afford it), I'm not going to bother.  Eagle can be irritating at times, but Altium will have to give me a much better reason to switch than this.

[Rigby]

I both agree with and disagree with nearly everything here.

Is online only bad?  Yes.  No.  Is it bad in that I can't take my files with me?  Yes.  Is it bad in that now I don't have to worry about keeping them backed up and available on other computers?  No.

I don't understand the vitriol.  If you don't like it, DON'T USE IT.  You're not being forced into anything, including online storage of yer bits.  If you don't want your non-physical 1s and 0s stored in the cloud, then don't use the tool.  It's fuckin' simple.

I'll be giving it a try.  I have Eagle Professional at work, which I hate.  I have OrCad at work, which isn't too bad.  I have a bunch of Mentor Graphics stuff which isn't too bad.  I don't have Altium.  I'll try it and if I like it I'll use it.  Online-only doesn't mean anything to me at all.

What matters to me is the EULA.  If Altium claim ownership of everything I do then, well, Altium can go screw themselves because that is something -- pretty much the only thing -- that I don't tolerate in EULAs.

[AlfBaz]

I don't understand the vitriol.

and yet....

  If you don't like it, DON'T USE IT.  You're not being forced into anything, including online storage of yer bits.  If you don't want your non-physical 1s and 0s stored in the cloud, then don't use the tool.  It's fuckin' simple.

If only the internet had more people like this... Oh wait

[zapta]

I don't understand the vitriol.  If you don't like it, DON'T USE IT.  You're not being forced into anything, including online storage of yer bits.  If you don't want your non-physical 1s and 0s stored in the cloud, then don't use the tool.  It's fuckin' simple.

I don't understand the vitriol.  If you don't like the opinions here, DON'T READ THEM. It's that simple.  ;-)

Seriously, negative feedback is just as valid as positive feedback. Censoring feedback to 'it's great' only misses the point.

The issue is not the cloud, many of us use github, google docs, gmail, dropbox and the likes. The issue is the locked cloud with a pay-to-get-your-own-data model. Hopefully Altium will listen and adapt. Eagle did it recently with the retreat from that new licensing scheme.

Altium, read this http://dataliberation.org

[mikeselectricstuff]

Seriously, negative feedback is just as valid as positive feedback.

Actually negative feedback is potentially more useful, as it is highlighting things that need fixing to make things better

[Bassman59]

The biggest beef I will have is that of version control.   I like to have a project repository with everything in it.  (Source, documentation, etc).     It is easy to life cycle manage something now with SVN.    If Altium's stuff is in the cloud,  that may make things a bit more difficult.

THIS.

[Bassman59]

No library and no local saving that sucks

No local saving indeed sucks.
But there will be library parts, just not what you are used to if you have a full AD subscription.
The idea is that the community will build libraries and everyone will use libraries online in a much more sharing way than how AD currently does it. Once again, there will be some powerful things in this area I can't talk much about yet.
The whole point of it is that it's stupid having everyone making their own library part when it's already been done and used in the community.

So, then, what about those of us who will take a symbol and footprint from a "community" library, vet it, add a company part number and other fields to the symbol, and then add the component to a company library?

Does this free Altium even allow the creation and use of a company library?

[Mechatrommer]

I am suspicious of why they want the project files stored only in the cloud. What's in it for them? What is in it for Altium?

still living in the cloud? let me tell you a summary from what i gathered in this forum about altium the company... directive #1: protecting shareholders' investment... that means probably you'll need to buy full $5K license in order to resurrect your project file in local space drive. or worst as other have said, you'll need to pay "bug fix" or "maintenance" fee anually in order to continue to enjoy access to your many hours of effort of project file. no free lunch man, no free lunch. do you think they can afford to store gazzillions of hobbiest project files in their cloud for free for eternal life? i dont think so. this is a "trap for young players"

Guys, server side data storage is the way of the future....anymore.
Assimilate.

you are absolutely right, assimilate and being reborn again as a monkey

wait... is that really usefull? the my post? no? just ignore/skip it please.

[hikariuk]

They should open source everything and accept donations only.

And if that brought in as much money as their current business model did they might consider it.  It won't.

[Rigby]

Whole lot of opinion here from folks that don't know what the tool is called, what its full functionality is, or what the terms or functionality of the online whatever will be.

Maybe it'll be awesome. Maybe it'll be a catalyst that kick starts some better development in kicad or eagle or your favorite tool.  Who knows?  Until we get our hands on it we are all just talking out of our asses.

It just shows how completely unsatisfiable we are as a community.  No one will ever make us happy as a whole, except that old software on that old platform that isn't made or sold anymore.  The one that got away.

[Rutger]

Heck, I just started to use Kicad, which is pretty decent. allows local saves and does everything I need.

Why do we need another free tool?  I have no problem with cloud based program, they usually save every change you make so you won't loose a thing.
Just look at google docs, you never have to save them. As long as they implement it right you shouldn't loose any changes.

You can't say that about other software, if you forget to save or you have a power failure... all your changes are gone.

They should allow local saves of the schematic and board layout (these should stay private), but all the libraries you create should be cloud based so people can re-use them.
For the libraries they need to create a strict naming convention, we don't want 100's of duplicates of the same part.

[janoc]

I find it interesting that there's already a definite trend in the poll towards people not being interested at all, and almost no-one who would pay a small amount to have a non-cloud option.

People really have high expectations for "free" these days.

Paying for things like larger boards, autorouter, additional layers, etc. - fair enough. Not everyone needs that and it allows lowering the cost. And who needs that feature can buy it. No problem with that model.

However, being actually able to reliably save your work is such a basic feature that nobody sane would even think about removing it, unless it is meant to be a practically unusable, limited demo. And re willing to pay for that - that's like getting a "free" car, but hey, you have to actually pay $10k for getting the engine if you want to drive elsewhere than in your garage. Is it having high expectations that the product is actually fit for its intended purpose? That it is "free" is really irrelevant there.

[EEVblog]

I think it is a question of efficiency.   Having real time DRC just makes things so much faster.   Not only is the routing faster but clean up as well.      I just completed a  design with a high speed memory interface.    The push-shove differential router was really nice.   Sure you can screw with 200 traces manually to fix DRC errors, but I personally have more better uses of my time. 
At this point it is like arguing that coding without an editor that has syntax highlighting or shitting in an outhouse.   When I grew up we had one.    It is really nice that I have now have toilet and don't have to clean the stall.   It's call progress!

You'll get no argument from me.
I'm just saying that Altium are differentiating the low end package by removing some design efficiency tools you take for granted in the full AD package.
And that is Altium's big problem, they have an existing $70M in sales to protect, they are a one-product company.
If the low end package is as efficient to use as the full package then there is no differentiator and many professionals won't have an incentive to upgrade.
People will survive just fine without push'n'shove in the low end package.

[timb]

Yes, but I might as well keep using DipTrace. If I'm going to use another package, I need a compelling reason to do so. PushNShove is one of those things.


Sent from my Smartphone

[EEVblog]

Maybe it'll be awesome. Maybe it'll be a catalyst that kick starts some better development in kicad or eagle or your favorite tool.  Who knows?  Until we get our hands on it we are all just talking out of our asses.

That's the thing. This will be an early beta test program and things will change as result of community feedback. In fact it's practically alpha testing.
Half the stuff wasn't finished or decisions made when I saw it yesterday and it's 5 days out from showing it at Maker Faire.
I get the very clear impression that Altium do want to do this right, and they genuinely want people to tell them what they want. But if everyone goes in and just says "I hate this and that", I refuse to use it, or whatever, then it's not going to go anywhere.

Atlium did stop and re-think their whole direction based on my video and the community response to that. And they will almost certainly be willing to do so again with the product once it's in beta. If you want to shape this tool, join the beta program and provide feedback.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I suspect Maker Fair could be a bit of a culture shock for them....

[Chris_PL]

And re willing to pay for that - that's like getting a "free" car, but hey, you have to actually pay $10k for getting the engine if you want to drive elsewhere than in your garage. Is it having high expectations that the product is actually fit for its intended purpose? That it is "free" is really irrelevant there.

I'd say "drive elsewhere than in our garage". Anyway, no local storage - a complete show stopper to me, I'll stick with KiCad though it's a PITA sometimes.

And, allowing commercial use and then forcing me to store all project files (even if it's a dime a dozen thing in terms of profits) only in Altium's exclusive cloud? Oh, come on…