Free Altium is Coming

[sleemanj]

And mine is 100 times bigger 

With blackjack, and hookers.

[ludzinc]

In fact, forget the Forum!

[zapta]

Also, I think that my designs are public by default is a good thing.  It's the same on GitHub and it's a good thing there, too.

No, this is not how github works, you can work for months locally with full version control capabilities without pushing up to the cloud.

Are you saying that Github repos aren't public by default?  Are you saying that public stuff isn't a good thing?

I didn't say anything about working locally, so I'm not sure why you've chosen that point to disagree with.

Your files become public only when you decide to run git push. It's very different from the CM model so saying that they are the same is inaccurate.

[ehughes]

KiCAD will never, ever, hit the mainstream until someone takes it by the horns and takes responsibility to produce an "official" stable version available on an official central website that does not deal with the source etc.
A version so that when a user joins a forum and asks for support or wants to report a bug etc, they can say that they are using "Version X".
There are countless other examples of this, and KiCAD will be no exception.
Mark my words

I was recently was contracted to design review a "product" that some guys were working (and I was billing at my normal rate).   Design was in KiCad.    I wanted PDFs of the schematic and artwork.    The claim was that the build they were using wasn't generating a correct printout.  I got the Gerbers but still had no way of effectively reviewing the schematic design.

Ok....   I'll just install KiCad.   They said to go grab the "Latest".      After installing,  the files didn't open.    The PCB tool didn't like something about a few of the lines.

Turns out that they were using build XXXXX  with patch ZZZZZZZ.  I was using BUILD XXXXX-1.   

Took me 3 hours to get a build after tracking down dependencies and fighting with make errors.

I did finish the review.     They ended up paying money for KiCad whether they intended to or not.

Moral of the Story.    KiCad needs to also learn about version controlling interfaces and formats.       Having the most random build of the day means that no one can effectively share files.    If your job is to to PCB design,   you really shouldn't have to be worrying about changing a build macro and a 3 hour compile process to open a file.  That is just dumb.

This is something that all the other tools have figured out.

I tried to make a point to them that it is OK to spend some money on a tool.     It is called "Opportunity Cost". 

[hikariuk]

"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"

Nooooooooope. I for one would like to keep at least the first few revisions private so I can fix everything I screwed up before someone else can see it.

This is exactly how Upverter works and it's not a big deal. In fact, it can be pretty nice WRT community collaboration and design reviews.


Sent from my Smartphone

Which is fine, if that's what you want.  If what you want is a private work box in which to make all your stupid choices privately, less so.

[Rigby]

Also, I think that my designs are public by default is a good thing.  It's the same on GitHub and it's a good thing there, too.

No, this is not how github works, you can work for months locally with full version control capabilities without pushing up to the cloud.

Are you saying that Github repos aren't public by default?  Are you saying that public stuff isn't a good thing?

I didn't say anything about working locally, so I'm not sure why you've chosen that point to disagree with.

Your files become public only when you decide to run git push. It's very different from the CM model so saying that they are the same is inaccurate.

Zap, I was talking about forking, as a reply to someone saying they would run around modifying everyone's board outlines into swastikas.

I order for this person to do that, they would need write access to everyone else's files.

I said something like "it will probably be like Github in that you fork a design and modify your copy."

Here comes Zapta: "nuh-uh! Git is local until you push!"

Me: "WTF?"

[Wilksey]

KiCAD will never, ever, hit the mainstream until someone takes it by the horns and takes responsibility to produce an "official" stable version available on an official central website that does not deal with the source etc.
A version so that when a user joins a forum and asks for support or wants to report a bug etc, they can say that they are using "Version X".
There are countless other examples of this, and KiCAD will be no exception.
Mark my words

I was recently was contracted to design review a "product" that some guys were working (and I was billing at my normal rate).   Design was in KiCad.    I wanted PDFs of the schematic and artwork.    The claim was that the build they were using wasn't generating a correct printout.  I got the Gerbers but still had no way of effectively reviewing the schematic design.

Ok....   I'll just install KiCad.   They said to go grab the "Latest".      After installing,  the files didn't open.    The PCB tool didn't like something about a few of the lines.

Turns out that they were using build XXXXX  with patch ZZZZZZZ.  I was using BUILD XXXXX-1.   

Took me 3 hours to get a build after tracking down dependencies and fighting with make errors.

I did finish the review.     They ended up paying money for KiCad whether they intended to or not.

Moral of the Story.    KiCad needs to also learn about version controlling interfaces and formats.       Having the most random build of the day means that no one can effectively share files.    If your job is to to PCB design,   you really shouldn't have to be worrying about changing a build macro and a 3 hour compile process to open a file.  That is just dumb.

This is something that all the other tools have figured out.

I tried to make a point to them that it is OK to spend some money on a tool.     It is called "Opportunity Cost".

Kind of my point about KiCAD, it is powerful enough to make boards with but unless you are a design group using it without wanting outside influence / reviews etc then you are OK to use whatever version you want as long as your design group uses the same.
The only way around it is to provide a download to the binaries you use as original designer to give to the reviewer, KiCAD is at least portable, though not good it you designed it on Linux and the reviewer is using Windows for example.

If they produced stable builds with version numbers they could (if they don't release too many) create a binary archive, which I believe would make it more usable for the small business / general hobbyist, but that is why I wanted to separate it from Eagle and DT originally as it is not in the same category as them.

I see 3 categories of PCB software, KiCAD being it's own, low to medium end and high end, KiCAD being it's own for reasons you mentioned and the comments I have made.

[Rigby]

They ended up paying money for KiCad whether they intended to or not.

Perfect example.  Thank you.

I have a very similar story about OpenOffice.  That bit of software cost a former employer FAR more money than MS licenses would have cost them.

Edit: some quote markup syntax errors, hopefully corrected.

[zapta]

They ended up paying money for KiCad whether they intended to or not.

Perfect example.  Thank you.

I have a very similar story about OpenOffice.  That bit of software cost a former employer FAR more money than MS licenses would have cost them.

What matters is the aggregated experience, not anecdotes.  Around here there are thousands of happy Libre Office users.

[Rigby]

Of course.  I'd love to see some good numbers for Kicad and open office usage.  I know a LOT of people who are former open office users, and I know zero current users.

I don't know a single Kicad user outside this forum.

And if I'm wrong and they're both used more than I think, then that is fine with me.  I am willing to be wrong.  I hope I'm wrong.  I want to be wrong. 

Kicad could be great, and as Dave said, to get there they need to have a project leader with passion and a clear vision of kicad's future. That person will need the developers working with them to believe in that vision.  Design by committee is never going to produce good software.  I don't know if Kicad is designed by committee, but it has a lot of the hallmarks of a zero-leadership software project.

[zapta]

Of course.  I'd love to see some good numbers for Kicad and open office usage.  I know a LOT of people who are former open office users, and I know zero current users.

I don't know a single Kicad user outside this forum.

My impression is that Kicad is not ready for prime time (mostly around stable version builds as Dave commented earlier) but hopefully this will be fixed.

As for Libre Office, I know thousands of users that chosen it over employer paid Microsoft office. This also my suit of choice for non cloud documents. Give it a try, it's actually an excellent open source and cross OS product with better usability IMO than Microsoft Office. Kicad is very far from that level of maturity but so was Eclipse once so I am still hoping for a change. ;-)

Between Kicad and CM for the hobbyist market I see more potential in Kicad.  Open source, cross platform, developers' interests aligned with users' interests.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Between Kicad and CM for the hobbyist market I see more potential in Kicad.  Open source, cross platform, developers' interests aligned with users' interests.

maybe in the (very) long term, but most people just want to make stuff, and CM would appear to have the edge on that aspect for the moment at least.

[Bored@Work]

though not good it you designed it on Linux and the reviewer is using Windows for example.

Run it in a VM. Not too difficult.

But that of course doesn't fix the KiCad issues in general. It is very apparent that what the KiCad developers deem to be important and unimportant, what they prefer to do and hate to do (and what they are capable of doing) is add odds with what Joe Average User needs and wants.

The biggest service one could do to the community (there, I used the c-word ...) would be to talk some sense into the KiCad developers. Another big service would be to improve their programming, software engineering and user interface design skills.

[janoc]

Of course.  I'd love to see some good numbers for Kicad and open office usage.  I know a LOT of people who are former open office users, and I know zero current users.

I don't know a single Kicad user outside this forum.

I guess it is time to broaden your horizons!

LibreOffice/OpenOffice is very popular even business here in Europe (e.g. in our company most of us use it just fine), there are projects like Munich migrating their entire municipal administration to open source software (not only OpenOffice, though), there was another one in Italy recently. Etc. I have even seen it come pre-installed on PCs.

If all you do in Office is some simple writing in Word and a table here and there in Excel (which is the case for maybe 80-90% of the users), then it is more than adequate.

And re Kicad - guys, nobody is forcing you to use it. I feel that mentioning Kicad here is like waving a red cloth in front of a bull - there is immediately a legion of people popping up, chanting how it is not ready for prime time, has crappy release system, no/bad versioning, it is hard to compile, whatever. Can we stop beating this dead horse finally? It is truly getting old. Especially folks that complain about things that are mostly a matter of taste/preference, like user interface.

The fact is that despite all these issues it is being used, like it or not. It is certainly not a competition to Altium Designer, but the low-end limited versions of things like DipTrace or Eagle. And for a hobbyist that is using Linux or Mac or cannot justify putting several hundreds of euro into the full version of Eagle, it is pretty much the only game in town. Especially when multilayer or boards larger than 10x8cm are needed, because nothing else can do them.

[Bored@Work]

Especially folks that complain about things that are mostly a matter of taste/preference, like user interface.

No, it is not a matter of taste. Usability is a well researched topic and linked to productivity. So are particular areas of usability, like consistency within an application and between applications.

"it is a matter of taste" is a common excuse among programmers who give a fuck about good usability.

The fact is that despite all these issues it is being used,

That only shows how flexible users are, how willing they are to compromise and how well they can be trained to ignore glaring issues, all while clicking themselves silly. And just because you are willing to compromise heavily doesn't mean everyone else must. There is no law people must like KiCad and stop talking about it just because it is free.

[Rigby]

Especially folks that complain about things that are mostly a matter of taste/preference, like user interface.

No, it is not a matter of taste. Usability is a well researched topic and linked to productivity. So are particular areas of usability, like consistency within an application and between applications.

"it is a matter of taste" is a common excuse among programmers who give a fuck about good usability.

The fact is that despite all these issues it is being used,

That only shows how flexible users are, how willing they are to compromise and how well they can be trained to ignore glaring issues, all while clicking themselves silly. And just because you are willing to compromise heavily doesn't mean everyone else must. There is no law people must like KiCad and stop talking about it just because it is free.

Right on the money.

Acceptance of a given user interface shows that the user adapts, not that the interface is good.

User interface quality is measured by the time it takes to learn to use the software effectively.  Ideally it would be very close to zero for any user.

[timb]

Also, I think that my designs are public by default is a good thing.  It's the same on GitHub and it's a good thing there, too.

No, this is not how github works, you can work for months locally with full version control capabilities without pushing up to the cloud.

Are you saying that Github repos aren't public by default?  Are you saying that public stuff isn't a good thing?

I didn't say anything about working locally, so I'm not sure why you've chosen that point to disagree with.

Your files become public only when you decide to run git push. It's very different from the CM model so saying that they are the same is inaccurate.

Zap, I was talking about forking, as a reply to someone saying they would run around modifying everyone's board outlines into swastikas.

I order for this person to do that, they would need write access to everyone else's files.

I said something like "it will probably be like Github in that you fork a design and modify your copy."

Here comes Zapta: "nuh-uh! Git is local until you push!"

Me: "WTF?"

By the way, to clarify my comment about drawing swastikas on boards: I was implying it could be done if they used a similar system to Upverter, where you can mark your design as "For Review" which opens it to public markup. (The markup is an overlay on your design and doesn't actually change it.)

Also, I wouldn't actually troll anyone on CM. I was trying to be sarcastic. I guess it doesn't translate to text very well. (Hey Unicode guys, where are my irony/sarcasm marks???)


Sent from my Smartphone

[george graves]

I couldn't help but to notice that Altium "staff" responded to the thread on HAD, and a few other blogs....

....But they won't touch Dave's forum with a 10 foot poll! 

Hey guys, this is Max from Altium, and I just wanted to clear up something about CircuitMaker that may not have totally come through here. While the free version will only allow you to keep your in-progress project private, part of the upgrade model will let you purchase more private projects if you need them. They will still be stored online, but will not be visible to any other CircuitMaker users.?

When I refer to “private projects”, I’m talking about CircuitMaker projects that are only visible to you and not shared publicly. As a couple other people on this thread have pointed out, the free version of CircuitMaker will allow you to keep one project private (so you don’t have to share a half-finished design), and the rest are visible to everyone else in the community. The limitations in the free version of CircuitMaker will still let you design fairly sizable projects.

The purchased upgrades in CircuitMaker will let you buy only the features you need (such as more private projects), without forcing you to spend money on parts of the tool you may not need right at the moment. This means that upgrades are cheap and give you only the functionality you need, when you need it.

[DerekG]

Dave wants to be un-banned from their forum. 

Even if they unbanned me, I wouldn't use it, it sucks.
And mine is 100 times bigger 

Yes, the Altium Forum is pretty much a waste of time. Bugs are listed ........... & still remain in AD 2 years later.

Posters get answers from Altium employees who you could swear have never used the software.

Altium does not take criticism kindly. Too much of this & you get banned ....... just like Dave.

And often you get advice from other forum members who know far less than yourself.

In fact, forget the Forum!

Fully agree.

I got the (KiCAD generated) Gerbers but still had no way of effectively reviewing the schematic design.

Shame the designers did not simply install a free PDF print driver on their machine.

That would have been a real easy fix.

[DerekG]

I couldn't help but to notice that Altium "staff" responded to the thread on HAD, and a few other blogs....

Hey guys, this is Max from Altium, and I just wanted to clear up something about CircuitMaker that may not have totally come through here. While the free version will only allow you to keep your in-progress project private, part of the upgrade model will let you purchase more private projects if you need them. They will still be stored online, but will not be visible to any other CircuitMaker users.?

Just as I reported here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/msg518706/#msg518706

Plus: Your design is considered "finished" as soon as you choose to generate the gerbers. You are then given the choice to pay to keep your design private or to let your design go public.

[tszaboo]

I couldn't help but to notice that Altium "staff" responded to the thread on HAD, and a few other blogs....

Hey guys, this is Max from Altium, and I just wanted to clear up something about CircuitMaker that may not have totally come through here. While the free version will only allow you to keep your in-progress project private, part of the upgrade model will let you purchase more private projects if you need them. They will still be stored online, but will not be visible to any other CircuitMaker users.?

Just as I reported here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/msg518706/#msg518706

Plus: Your design is considered "finished" as soon as you choose to generate the gerbers. You are then given the choice to pay to keep your design private or to let your design go public.

That is stupid. The development cycle doesnt stop at the gerber generation. I usually generate them halfway, it is easier to spot problems, and after they are generated at the end, I still use a third party solution to check it for any issues.

[madires]

I couldn't help but to notice that Altium "staff" responded to the thread on HAD, and a few other blogs....

....But they won't touch Dave's forum with a 10 foot poll! 

Hey guys, this is Max from Altium, and I just wanted to clear up something about CircuitMaker that may not have totally come through here. While the free version will only allow you to keep your in-progress project private, part of the upgrade model will let you purchase more private projects if you need them. They will still be stored online, but will not be visible to any other CircuitMaker users.?

There's another issue with that cloud storage approach. I assume that you can't export your project locally either. You'll be locked in Altium's cloud.

[neslekkim]

CircuitMaker will allow you to keep one project private (so you don’t have to share a half-finished design), and the rest are visible to everyone else in the community.

So one can work on only one project at the time.. that would not work very good..

[mikeselectricstuff]

CircuitMaker will allow you to keep one project private (so you don’t have to share a half-finished design), and the rest are visible to everyone else in the community.

So one can work on only one project at the time.. that would not work very good..

..per account presumably, so probably work-aroundable but a bit of a pain.

I wonder how it handles loading an old design for reference while you're working on a new one.

[ludzinc]

CircuitMaker will allow you to keep one project private (so you don’t have to share a half-finished design), and the rest are visible to everyone else in the community.

So one can work on only one project at the time.. that would not work very good..

..per account presumably, so probably work-aroundable but a bit of a pain.

I wonder how it handles loading an old design for reference while you're working on a new one.

So,

If working on multiple designs, you end up with a lot of unfinished crud filling up their servers.

Dumb dumb dumb dumb

Maybe keep *all* your projects private *until* you generate gerbers could be a suitable work around.

Add a 'gerber view' that doesn't generate files for release so you can check your progress...