Windows is getting disgusting

[Lightages]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1437518


 

[timb]

Personally, I think OS X is the best of all worlds, combined with VMWare Fusion. I keep a Windows XP and several Linux distros and FreeBSD VMs ready to roll.

For XP, the Unity feature of VMWare lets the Windows apps act like native OS X apps.

If I need to run a Linux X11 app, I either compile it for OS X, or run a headless Linux VM and SSH into it with X11 Forwarding enabled; it will then run in the Linux VM but the actual GUI is handled by XQuartz over SSH, so it appears to be native. It's a pretty sweet solution.

[madires]

Lovely, the OS wars An OS is just a tool. If some OS doesn't work for you, it's the wrong tool for you.

I'll try to avoid Win10 as much as possible, since I'm someone who wants to have full control of his devices and tools. Win10 would make me a lessee of my computer, even though I bought it and I'm the owner. That's also my personal problem with Apple. I simply don't like walled gardens. And if I miss some fancy new stuff, that's ok with me.

I'm happy with linux and I'm able to fix problems. A huge benefit of an Unix OS is that it provides severals tools for detecting problems and trouble shooting, things an engineer loves. Doing that with Windows is cumbersome and frustrating.

[Philfreeze]

Lovely, the OS wars An OS is just a tool. If some OS doesn't work for you, it's the wrong tool for you.

I'll try to avoid Win10 as much as possible, since I'm someone who wants to have full control of his devices and tools. Win10 would make me a lessee of my computer, even though I bought it and I'm the owner. That's also my personal problem with Apple. I simply don't like walled gardens. And if I miss some fancy new stuff, that's ok with me.

I'm happy with linux and I'm able to fix problems. A huge benefit of an Unix OS is that it provides severals tools for detecting problems and trouble shooting, things an engineer loves. Doing that with Windows is cumbersome and frustrating.

God, I can't take it anymore. Only people who never really used OSX would say it is a "walled garden". They just don't show things like the system folder to the user because most users shouldn't mess with it and never have to (if they have to the OS probably did a bad job) but you can access everything on OSX. It is really just a Linux with a very nice front end and some basic protection against stupid users.
Name a single thing which you cannot do because OSX prevents you from doing it. (it has to be actually useful, not delete all the things or something like that)
Maybe I can give you the answer and maybe I will have to ask my father (he is the software pro; I am a hardware guy)

[Muxr]

Lovely, the OS wars An OS is just a tool. If some OS doesn't work for you, it's the wrong tool for you.

I'll try to avoid Win10 as much as possible, since I'm someone who wants to have full control of his devices and tools. Win10 would make me a lessee of my computer, even though I bought it and I'm the owner. That's also my personal problem with Apple. I simply don't like walled gardens. And if I miss some fancy new stuff, that's ok with me.

I'm happy with linux and I'm able to fix problems. A huge benefit of an Unix OS is that it provides severals tools for detecting problems and trouble shooting, things an engineer loves. Doing that with Windows is cumbersome and frustrating.

God, I can't take it anymore. Only people who never really used OSX would say it is a "walled garden". They just don't show things like the system folder to the user because most users shouldn't mess with it and never have to (if they have to the OS probably did a bad job) but you can access everything on OSX. It is really just a Linux with a very nice front end and some basic protection against stupid users.
Name a single thing which you cannot do because OSX prevents you from doing it. (it has to be actually useful, not delete all the things or something like that)
Maybe I can give you the answer and maybe I will have to ask my father (he is the software pro; I am a hardware guy)

I have used all 3 major OSs (and some other lesser known, like Solaris even desktop on SunRays). As someone who's been in IT for 30 years now. I think I have enough experience and time spent with them to share my opinions of them.

- Windows: too many annoyances, small things but they add up over time and really drive you up the wall. Like auto update rebooting your computer even when you don't acknowledge it. Yes I know you can change the preference, but most people forget it. I was actually on a major outage call once when a network engineer was in the middle of fixing the issue and the computer rebooted on him without him noticing. And then proceeded to install bunch of updates. He was probably using one of those enterprisey apps that like to steal focus periodically and he never saw the reboot dialog. It works well if all you do is in the Windows ecosystem, but there are much better options if you really want to experience the vast wealth of quality Unix software (I know you can run Cygwin and stuff but it's not the same). Also for gaming it is by far the best.

- Linux: the best choice for majority of server and/or cloud deployments. Desktop severely lacks in my opinion still, and this is coming from someone who used Linux desktop primarily from 1998-2007. And then tried it again every once in awhile. It has gotten much better over the years, and if Apple ever piss me off I am definitely going back to Linux.

- OS X, nails a productive content creator desktop. Automation possible out of the box is top notch, you get the best of both worlds, the vast wealth of unix and FOSS apps natively, as well as the commercial support for a lot of the big commercial power apps. Yes it is not officially supported on the 3rd party hardware, but hackintoshing works pretty well now days. The side effect of the hardware exclusivity is that the software-hardware integration is second to none on Apple laptops. Also it is the only Desktop OS which gets keyboard shortcuts right, out of the box. I have no idea what designers of Linux graphical shells were thinking following the Windows model. Ctrl-C  the Copy and Ctrl-C the terminal break conflict!!! ugh... so each terminal app implements their own copy and paste. Whoever thought that was a good idea is an idiot.

For the most part the OS X gets out of your way and once you use it for a bit you realise how efficient it really is with its clever keyboard shortcuts and the screen real estate saving menu system. It is not without its problems just like any other Desktop OS. For instance Apple still can't get multi monitor support right. Like "alt-tabbing" popup will often be on the "wrong" screen.

Anyways don't knock it until you try it. And by try it I mean used it for long enough to re-learn keyboard shortcut muscle memory. If you do any sort of development outside of the .Net MS world it will become your favourite platform I am about 80% sure of it.

Might be a tough sale for EE work though, since a lot of professional EE apps are stuck in the last century and they insist on being single platform. If a small company like Saleae can be multiplatform I don't see why can't the others (I am looking at you SignalHound).

[AF6LJ]

OSX is not what I would call user friendly OS, sure for the computer skill-less it's good but when you need to make simple (under windows or Linux) changes to the desktop or other changes you are forced to ether live with it or go way out of your way to make it the way you want.


This from a computer consultant who has clients with both Win and apple computers...

none of the popular or less than popular operating systems are a be-all to everyone.

[Alexei.Polkhanov]

OSX is not what I would call user friendly OS, sure for the computer skill-less it's good but when you need to make simple (under windows or Linux) changes to the desktop or other changes you are forced to ether live with it or go way out of your way to make it the way you want.

Just install MacPorts, remote shell into it and voila, all UNIX tools plus you can use normal IBM keyboard.

[Muxr]

OSX is not what I would call user friendly OS, sure for the computer skill-less it's good but when you need to make simple (under windows or Linux) changes to the desktop or other changes you are forced to ether live with it or go way out of your way to make it the way you want.

Just install MacPorts, remote shell into it and voila, all UNIX tools plus you can use normal IBM keyboard.

I've used MacPorts for many years, also partially a leftover from my FreeBSD days. I have been preferring brew lately however. Forgot what it was exactly that made me finally switch (I think El Capitan reverting some of my installs to previous version or something to that effect). But brew's tendency to keep your standard OS installs intact is nice.

[Muxr]

OSX is not what I would call user friendly OS, sure for the computer skill-less it's good but when you need to make simple (under windows or Linux) changes to the desktop or other changes you are forced to ether live with it or go way out of your way to make it the way you want.


This from a computer consultant who has clients with both Win and apple computers...

none of the popular or less than popular operating systems are a be-all to everyone.

Can you elaborate? From my experience I have found OS X is not really that restrictive, I certainly consider it less restrictive than Windows. Windows will prevent you from deleting files, tailing a file that's being written to (or have they fixed that finally in powershell?)... If you're doing something that OS X is preventing you from doing I find it's usually something you can easily do with a different approach.

[AF6LJ]

OSX is not what I would call user friendly OS, sure for the computer skill-less it's good but when you need to make simple (under windows or Linux) changes to the desktop or other changes you are forced to ether live with it or go way out of your way to make it the way you want.


This from a computer consultant who has clients with both Win and apple computers...

none of the popular or less than popular operating systems are a be-all to everyone.

Can you elaborate? From my experience I have found OS X is not really that restrictive, I certainly consider it less restrictive than Windows. Windows will prevent you from deleting files, tailing a file that's being written to (or have they fixed that finally in powershell?)... If you're doing something that OS X is preventing you from doing I find it's usually something you can easily do with a different approach.

Yes I can...
Changing Desktop font size for example.
A client wanted larger fonts but did not want to lower the screen resolution, and did not want to use the accessibility controls which to someone who is partially sighted as I am are useless.
The same person didn't like the font used on the desktop.

If there is something I don't know how to change in a windowz box I can google it and have the answer in seconds. Mac computers not so easy...

Windows is more configurable along with Linux. I don't know why the Apple OS is so hard to deal with regarding some issues.

[Muxr]

OSX is not what I would call user friendly OS, sure for the computer skill-less it's good but when you need to make simple (under windows or Linux) changes to the desktop or other changes you are forced to ether live with it or go way out of your way to make it the way you want.


This from a computer consultant who has clients with both Win and apple computers...

none of the popular or less than popular operating systems are a be-all to everyone.

Can you elaborate? From my experience I have found OS X is not really that restrictive, I certainly consider it less restrictive than Windows. Windows will prevent you from deleting files, tailing a file that's being written to (or have they fixed that finally in powershell?)... If you're doing something that OS X is preventing you from doing I find it's usually something you can easily do with a different approach.

Yes I can...
Changing Desktop font size for example.
A client wanted larger fonts but did not want to lower the screen resolution, and did not want to use the accessibility controls which to someone who is partially sighted as I am are useless.
The same person didn't like the font used on the desktop.

If there is something I don't know how to change in a windowz box I can google it and have the answer in seconds. Mac computers not so easy...

Windows is more configurable along with Linux. I don't know why the Apple OS is so hard to deal with regarding some issues.

That's odd. Mac along with Linux implement the zooming really well, on Windows it's pretty clunky. But all you do is hold the CMD button (your standard key modifier) and scroll the wheel to zoom in into anything on the screen.

Pretty much every app supports text sizing, whether you use the trackpad pinch to zoom or the CMD-(+-). I actually think it's enforced by the OS, iMessages, the Finder, terminal, everything supports it. I have not found that to be the case on Windows. Notepad doesn't support text scaling. The most basic of the native apps in Windows. I would actually argue that OS X has a far better accessibility support for vision impaired.

If none of those work you also have the resolution scaling setting for retina displays, you can make the entire UI huge.

Sounds like it's just a case of not being familiar with the keyboard shortcuts. Something I touched on in one of my previous posts.

The lack of google results can be various things, from the different verbiage Mac uses, using Windows setting names to search Mac settings for example, but it can also be the popularity thing, after all Windows still enjoys like a 90% monopoly. The key thing with Macs is that CMD is your main modifier for most things. In fact if you use a mouse it's the only keyboard modifier you ever have to use.

CMD - C - Copy
CMD - V - Paste
CMD - Tab - Tab between apps
CMD - ~ - Tab between windows of the same app
CMD - Space - quick spotlight search
CMD - Mouse scroll wheel - quick zoom wherever the mouse is pointing.
CMD - W - close the window/tab
CMD - N - new window
CMD - T - new tab
CMD - Q - quit the app closing all its windows

All these shortcuts are honored in most apps too. Not just some. Not like Putty on Windows where all the shortcuts are different between some apps. Right click is your paste, lol. Linux is just as bad with shift+insert. On OS X copy is always CMD-C.

I should also note that CMD is where Alt on windows machines sits, and it makes it much easier ergonomically for prolonged use in my experience. Think of how Alt-Tab is easy on Windows. All the shortcuts on OS X are that easy.

For instance if you're trying to copy some text from one app to the next, you can quickly just do CMD-C, CMD-TAB, CMD-V on windows that's Ctrl-C, Alt-Tab, Ctrl-V.. (4 key presses, vs Windows' 6) as someone who uses this a lot I find I am at least 20-30% faster on the Mac. Not to mention Cmd-Tilde and finer control of what you're "alt-tabbing" between.

I do get it though. Like I said in my previous post, you really have to learn the keyboard shortcuts, it makes the OS X so much more efficient. Too often I see Windows users use OS X like they would use Windows and find themselves frustrated. But this is hardly OS X's fault.

OS X is not just easier for new users, it's easier for power users too. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't used OS X for an extended period of time. I happened to have used all 3 for about equal amount of years (Windows the longest since Windows 3.0).

[Artlav]

I have no idea what designers of Linux graphical shells were thinking following the Windows model. Ctrl-C  the Copy and Ctrl-C the terminal break conflict!!! ugh... so each terminal app implements their own copy and paste.

Hm?
I thought Ctrl+Ins and Shift+Ins work across most Linux (and almost all Windows) programs.

[Muxr]

I have no idea what designers of Linux graphical shells were thinking following the Windows model. Ctrl-C  the Copy and Ctrl-C the terminal break conflict!!! ugh... so each terminal app implements their own copy and paste.

Hm?
I thought Ctrl+Ins and Shift+Ins work across most Linux (and almost all Windows) programs.

Shft+Ins is far from ideal, it usually requires both hands and often times if you're copying and pasting between apps you will be using a mouse with one of your hands to select. It's just awkward. I have used it sure, you can work with it, but it's inferior to the always available cmd-c/v.

[Artlav]

Shft+Ins is far from ideal, it usually requires both hands

Huh?
What keyboard layout do you use?
I just looked through a bunch of them, and all have Shift and Ins closer than Ctrl and V, including the key-poor small laptops.

Or is that due to something other than physical proximity?

[Muxr]

Shft+Ins is far from ideal, it usually requires both hands

Huh?
What keyboard layout do you use?
I just looked through a bunch of them, and all have Shift and Ins closer than Ctrl and V, including the key-poor small laptops.

Or is that due to something other than physical proximity?

I can see being able to use Shift-Ins with one hand on the mouse as a lefty. But if you're using the right handed mouse, the shift-ins I think you're referring to is on the right side of the keyboard. So you have to completely reposition your hand on the opposite side of the keyboard each time you need to copy/paste in order to use one hand, while using the mouse to select the text or objects. I fail to see how this is an easier alternative to cmd-c. Every keyboard I've ever seen has the Ins button somewhere on the right side of the keyboard. While all your other shortcuts are on your left.

Ins is also not ideal because it's often in a non-standard place. What I mean by this is, your standard full sized keyboards will have it in the same place, but as you step down to tenkeyless keyboards or smaller a keyboard manufacturer can move Ins anywhere they please. I've also seen it as a button you can only access with a Fn modifier.

Take this popular Lenovo model.


Ins is an afterthought. You need 3 hands to pull of quick mouse select, copy, alt-tab, paste. While on the mac you never have to move your hand.

[madires]

God, I can't take it anymore. Only people who never really used OSX would say it is a "walled garden". They just don't show things like the system folder to the user because most users shouldn't mess with it and never have to (if they have to the OS probably did a bad job) but you can access everything on OSX. It is really just a Linux with a very nice front end and some basic protection against stupid users.
Name a single thing which you cannot do because OSX prevents you from doing it. (it has to be actually useful, not delete all the things or something like that)
Maybe I can give you the answer and maybe I will have to ask my father (he is the software pro; I am a hardware guy)

Perfect match Hardware is one main issue. I can't simply go to the next shop, grab the next best PC and install OSX. Apple gone to a lot of effort to suppress compatibles. Does the OSX EULA say something like that OSX may only be used with an Apple computer? There you go! A walled garden

[rrinker]

 Windows uses Control-C to break out of running programs. yet you can also use it for copy (they brought it back in Windows 10, after some genius decided that using a right click context menu with the mouse was the right way to do text copy and paste in a text based user interface like Powershell). It's somewhat context sensitive - if you highlight text and press Control-C, the assumption is you are trying to copy that text, not send a <break>. If a script is running and
you press Control-C, the assumption is you want to break out of the running script, not copy the text that isn't highlighted. So why can't Linux do the same?

[Muxr]

Windows uses Control-C to break out of running programs. yet you can also use it for copy (they brought it back in Windows 10, after some genius decided that using a right click context menu with the mouse was the right way to do text copy and paste in a text based user interface like Powershell). It's somewhat context sensitive - if you highlight text and press Control-C, the assumption is you are trying to copy that text, not send a <break>. If a script is running and
you press Control-C, the assumption is you want to break out of the running script, not copy the text that isn't highlighted. So why can't Linux do the same?

I can see it not being very reliable because in terminal you are often using a program to control other programs, things like screen and tmux are common. All Linux has to do is move all their GUI shortcuts to use Alt instead of Ctrl. And the problem would be fixed. It would make Linux as easy as OS X. And you can still have your terminal shortcuts use Ctrl.

[AF6LJ]

Lovely, the OS wars An OS is just a tool. If some OS doesn't work for you, it's the wrong tool for you.

I'll try to avoid Win10 as much as possible, since I'm someone who wants to have full control of his devices and tools. Win10 would make me a lessee of my computer, even though I bought it and I'm the owner. That's also my personal problem with Apple. I simply don't like walled gardens. And if I miss some fancy new stuff, that's ok with me.

I'm happy with linux and I'm able to fix problems. A huge benefit of an Unix OS is that it provides severals tools for detecting problems and trouble shooting, things an engineer loves. Doing that with Windows is cumbersome and frustrating.

God, I can't take it anymore. Only people who never really used OSX would say it is a "walled garden". They just don't show things like the system folder to the user because most users shouldn't mess with it and never have to (if they have to the OS probably did a bad job) but you can access everything on OSX. It is really just a Linux with a very nice front end and some basic protection against stupid users.
Name a single thing which you cannot do because OSX prevents you from doing it. (it has to be actually useful, not delete all the things or something like that)
Maybe I can give you the answer and maybe I will have to ask my father (he is the software pro; I am a hardware guy)

There shouldn't be stupid users. 

[Artlav]

So you have to completely reposition your hand on the opposite side of the keyboard each time you need to copy/paste in order to use one hand, while using the mouse to select the text or objects.

Aren't you doing exactly the same to reach keys like backspace and enter?
Or are you specific  talking about the scenario of "copy, alt-tab, paste"?

But yeah, i can only agree about non-standard placements of the "extra" keys...

All Linux has to do is move all their GUI shortcuts to use Alt instead of Ctrl. And the problem would be fixed.

Unfortunately, it would only end in more confusion.

[Mechanical Menace]

I can see being able to use Shift-Ins with one hand on the mouse as a lefty. But if you're using the right handed mouse, the shift-ins I think you're referring to is on the right side of the keyboard. So you have to completely reposition your hand on the opposite side of the keyboard each time you need to copy/paste in order to use one hand, while using the mouse to select the text or objects. I fail to see how this is an easier alternative to cmd-c.

In that situation you only have one hand at the keyboard so need to reposition it to do an awful lot anyway. But I guess moving your hand inches does take hours...

I fail to see how either is harder or easier than the other, only different.

All Linux has to do is move all their GUI shortcuts to use Alt instead of Ctrl. And the problem would be fixed. It would make Linux as easy as OS X. And you can still have your terminal shortcuts use Ctrl.

I also fail to see how that, or the "win" key, would be any easier or harder either. And it's another new thing for new users to learn, and 99% of them (and probably 99.9999% outside of the US*) will be coming from Windows anyway so not using Ctrl would be harder for them. Same is true for moving to Mac too.

But tbh as soon as I move to a terminal my right hand goes straight back to the keyboard, because you know it's a terminal and beyond selecting the window the mouse is useless, so this isn't an issue for me lol.


*I've only come across two Mac owners IRL, and one of them was me before they just started making PCs.

[Muxr]

I can see being able to use Shift-Ins with one hand on the mouse as a lefty. But if you're using the right handed mouse, the shift-ins I think you're referring to is on the right side of the keyboard. So you have to completely reposition your hand on the opposite side of the keyboard each time you need to copy/paste in order to use one hand, while using the mouse to select the text or objects. I fail to see how this is an easier alternative to cmd-c.

In that situation you only have one hand at the keyboard so need to reposition it to do an awful lot anyway. But I guess moving your hand inches does take hours...

I fail to see how either is harder or easier than the other, only different.

All Linux has to do is move all their GUI shortcuts to use Alt instead of Ctrl. And the problem would be fixed. It would make Linux as easy as OS X. And you can still have your terminal shortcuts use Ctrl.

I also fail to see how that, or the "win" key, would be any easier or harder either. And it's another new thing for new users to learn, and 99% of them (and probably 99.9999% outside of the US) will be coming from Windows anyway so not using Ctrl would be harder for them. Same is true for moving to Mac too tbh.

But tbh as soon as I move to a terminal my right hand goes straight back to the keyboard, because you know it's a terminal ao beyond selecting the window the mouse is useless, so this isn't an issue for me lol.

I can explain it.

Let me give you a very common scenario. Your coding something, and you forget the best way to do something. You fire up google and you find a stackoverlow topic on exactly the issue you're trying to solve (this happens all the time btw). You see a nice snippet of code you'd like to copy and modify in for your project.

On Mac:

- Move your right hand to the mouse. Select.
- Hold CMD
- Press C
- Press Tab
- Press V
- Release CMD

On other OSs:

- Move your right hand off the keyboard to the mouse. Select
- Hold Ctrl
- Press C
- Release Ctrl,
- Press and Hold Alt
- Press Tab
- Release Alt
- Press and hold Ctrl
- Press V
- Release Alt

If you're in a terminal app Mac example stays the same, things get even weirder on Linux and Windows:

- Move your right hand off the keyboard to the mouse. Select
- Hold Ctrl
- Press C
- Release Ctrl,
- Press and Hold Alt
- Press Tab
- Release Alt
- Move your left hand to the right side of the keyboard
- Press and hold Shift
- Press Insert
- Release Shift
- Move your left hand back to your usual left side of the keyboard

This is just for one copy and paste. But often times you want to copy different sections. And you can see how constantly having to reposition your hands on the keyboard is less than ideal.

Is it doable? yes. I've used Linux for 10 years. I can live with it. But is OS X much much nicer. Absolutely!

[Mechanical Menace]

Except when people actually type not every key press and release is a separate motion. For example for me:

On Mac:

- Move your right hand to the mouse. Select.
- Hold CMD *
- Press C     * These are one motion
- Press Tab
- Press V
- Release Hold

On other OSs:

- Move your right hand off the keyboard to the mouse. Select
- Hold Ctrl               *
- Press C                 * These are also one motion
- Release Ctrl,         **
- Press and Hold Alt ** As are these
- Press Tab             **
- Release Alt             ***
- Press and hold Ctrl  *** And these
- Press V                   ***
- Release Alt

So both take 4 motions.

If you're in a terminal app Mac example stays the same, things get even weirder on Linux and Windows:

- Move your right hand off the keyboard to the mouse. Select
- Hold Ctrl
- Press C
- Release Ctrl,
- Press and Hold Alt
- Press Tab
- Release Alt
- Move your left hand to the right side of the keyboard

Why when your right hand is already back at the keyboard? You're not even using the mouse to switch windows so why keep it on there when you're switching to a CLI? Just use your right hand you've instinctively moved back to the keyboard without thinking about it.

Is it doable? yes. I've used Linux for 10 years. I can live with it. But is OS X much much nicer. Absolutely!

For you maybe, to me they're just different. To others, especially new users, different and harder are the same thing.

[Muxr]

Except when people actually type not every key press and release is a separate motion. For example for me:

On Mac:

- Move your right hand to the mouse. Select.
- Hold CMD *
- Press C     * These are one motion
- Press Tab
- Press V
- Release Hold

On other OSs:

- Move your right hand off the keyboard to the mouse. Select
- Hold Ctrl               *
- Press C                 * These are also one motion
- Release Ctrl,         **
- Press and Hold Alt ** As are these
- Press Tab             **
- Release Alt             ***
- Press and hold Ctrl  *** And these
- Press V                   ***
- Release Alt

So both take 4 motions.

Absolutely false. Having to switch between holding ctrl and alt is not at all the same as just holding one button without having to release it. Run a test and see which one is easier. Just pretend ctrl-c was alt-c. And don't release it between the steps.

I am not arguing the speed I am arguing the ease. Although OSX way can also be faster.

[madires]

I can see it not being very reliable because in terminal you are often using a program to control other programs, things like screen and tmux are common. All Linux has to do is move all their GUI shortcuts to use Alt instead of Ctrl. And the problem would be fixed. It would make Linux as easy as OS X. And you can still have your terminal shortcuts use Ctrl.

With X11/xorg you can modify keys as you like. You could use xmodmap or XKB for example.