TESLA finally launches a truck/semi ? AND some solarpower in PUERTO RICO.

[mtdoc]

Actually EV sales growth has been impressive, especially given the fact that the market didn’t even exist a few years ago and that gasoline prices have been extremely low.

When I bought my Volt 3 years ago, I did not even consider the benefit of not having to go to the gas station regularly. I’d been doing it for almost 40 years and hadn’t realized what a PITA it was. That, and oil changes.  Now, I’m finding it to be one of the biggest perks of EV ownership. We just got my wife a Chrysler Pacifica PHEV in part because she wants to enjoy the same perks.

No need to tow a trailer with a generator, it’s built in.  IMHO these plug in “serial hybrids” are the perfect solution at this point in time when a full fledged charging infrastructure or battery swap soltion is not yet in place. It’s all electric most days but no range anxiety if i want to take a longer trip.  3 years into it and my Volt’s average MPG is > 200 despite regular long drives to Seattle.

[Simon]

You could always hire people to "look" after you if you can't be bothered to do the basic things. I mean if you want to drive a vehicle you need to fuel it. I bet you won't complain about the near 1/10 of the cost to run it but you complain about having to plug in. I bet walking would be tedious too ?

Grow up.

The simple fact is that EV's aren't selling.  Even with all the subsidies and handouts, they don't sell.  You can stubbornly refuse to accept the reality that is staring you in the face and believe that everyone just needs to be forced to bend to your viewpoint, or you can take a look at how markets really work and understand that EV's will sell when they make sense for consumers.  Right now, they do not.

People tell you what the problem is and you keep saying "no, that's not the problem"

Well I'm one consumer happy to have one! I like more efficient and cheaper travel despite some people not wanting to "bend" to reality. Fact is all you are saying is that you are lazy, I'm sorry but whatever you are offered you stubbornly refuse to accept it. You want the EV benefits and the ICE benefits together, this is the point at which I usually have to tell my boss to stop being silly......

[tszaboo]

The problem is that most people just don't want them.  I think we are a technology revolution away from these vehicles actually selling, cuz right now they ain't.

You are in write only mode, repeating the same thing over and over again.
The fact, that around you there aren't many electric cars, and everyone is bitching, doesnt mean that EVs dont sell. In norway, every 3rd car is PHEV or EV. VW is spending some 82 Billion on electric cars. That is 4x Telsa all asset. Every Volvo will be electric or hybirid in two years. They just wont have other type of engine. And several countries ban sales of ICE cars completely.
You are like the guy, sitting on a horseback, shouting that cars are useless, and horses are the future.

[Simon]

So when the Government feels the pinch of Electric cars indirect subsidies like VAT at 5% for electricity vs VAT 20% on Fuel and the duties and taxes on fuels are morphed towards electricity as well - what do you think will happen

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty

I could “earn” a bunch of monies via Subsidies to exchange my Natural Gas boilers with Heat Pumps and get a heck of a lot of Goverment subsidies. But payback is so dependent on electricity costs. And demand and supply dictates prices. As Electricity demand is increasing - price will increase over time. But natural Gas prices are dropping as natural gas demand is decreasing.

Just this year vs last year my electricity has gone from 0.09/kWh to 0.1115/kWh but my Natural Gas has gone from 0.0321/kWh to 0.0266/kWh (excl. 5% vat) - that is of course excluding standing charge.

So now I’m thinking of putting in some Natural Gas to Electricity converters - as it seems I can make my own electricity for about 0.04 / kWh incl service fees/maintenance etc. On top of that I get a generous donation from the government for every kWh I produce - much better than solar (about 0.1295 / kWh at this moment) + on top of that I get about 0.05 / kWh I export.... I feel it is a bit like stealing from the public - but you have to follow the rules.

And it is not green - but it is greener than buying electricity delivered via the current net.

I’m still in the research phase on the converter but I’ll keep you all updated.

So you deny petrol increases in price too?, and that is out of the governments control, it's down to the international stage of self obsessed nations we buy the stuff from and the fact that it's value fuels wars because there are few locations where oil is located. Electricity on the other hand can be made in a localized and distributed way so there is no power struggle over it or monopolization of the market. I have but 1.5KW worth of panels and anually make 1/3 of my own supply, if I went nuts I could make enough for me and my driving. As things stand in the UK due to fierce campaigning fuel duty rises are continually scrapped, if the government had it's way your petrol would already be much more expensive, 10% extra at least.

Of course eventually electricity or the taxes on it will rise. The price maybe not because of how flexibly it can be produced with the new wonderful nuclear reactor yet to be built already out priced with todays alternatives. If they put VAT up I would not even be too bothered, ok so it rises to 20% like everything else, that would be an increase of 12.5%, it's not like petrol does not rise as well. At the end of the day when you buy petrol all you are doing is paying tax to the government. Don't like it? generate your own electricity.

[kaz911]

So when the Government feels the pinch of Electric cars indirect subsidies like VAT at 5% for electricity vs VAT 20% on Fuel and the duties and taxes on fuels are morphed towards electricity as well - what do you think will happen

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty

I could “earn” a bunch of monies via Subsidies to exchange my Natural Gas boilers with Heat Pumps and get a heck of a lot of Goverment subsidies. But payback is so dependent on electricity costs. And demand and supply dictates prices. As Electricity demand is increasing - price will increase over time. But natural Gas prices are dropping as natural gas demand is decreasing.

Just this year vs last year my electricity has gone from 0.09/kWh to 0.1115/kWh but my Natural Gas has gone from 0.0321/kWh to 0.0266/kWh (excl. 5% vat) - that is of course excluding standing charge.

So now I’m thinking of putting in some Natural Gas to Electricity converters - as it seems I can make my own electricity for about 0.04 / kWh incl service fees/maintenance etc. On top of that I get a generous donation from the government for every kWh I produce - much better than solar (about 0.1295 / kWh at this moment) + on top of that I get about 0.05 / kWh I export.... I feel it is a bit like stealing from the public - but you have to follow the rules.

And it is not green - but it is greener than buying electricity delivered via the current net.

I’m still in the research phase on the converter but I’ll keep you all updated.

So you deny petrol increases in price too?, and that is out of the governments control, it's down to the international stage of self obsessed nations we buy the stuff from and the fact that it's value fuels wars because there are few locations where oil is located. Electricity on the other hand can be made in a localized and distributed way so there is no power struggle over it or monopolization of the market. I have but 1.5KW worth of panels and anually make 1/3 of my own supply, if I went nuts I could make enough for me and my driving. As things stand in the UK due to fierce campaigning fuel duty rises are continually scrapped, if the government had it's way your petrol would already be much more expensive, 10% extra at least.

Of course eventually electricity or the taxes on it will rise. The price maybe not because of how flexibly it can be produced with the new wonderful nuclear reactor yet to be built already out priced with todays alternatives. If they put VAT up I would not even be too bothered, ok so it rises to 20% like everything else, that would be an increase of 12.5%, it's not like petrol does not rise as well. At the end of the day when you buy petrol all you are doing is paying tax to the government. Don't like it? generate your own electricity.

Simon - I do not deny anything - I have not compared Electric to Petrol prices or any relation. I'm just saying that you at some point will loose the BENEFITS given to you from the Government right now. Right now EV miles are subsidised due to low VAT rate on Electricity.

I'm not against Tes(t)la's or EV's or Hybrid. I would love one. But I know how Governments operate. Now London hybrid drivers will start getting less benefit. Once we have MORE EV's the benefits will stop as the tax monies have to come from somewhere.

But I'm just saying - please stay realistic. Once the Government thinks you get too much benefit - they remove it.  EV's have great benefits now in some economies. But look at Denmark that had very favourable taxes for EV's. The Government then changed the rules - and now just about ZERO Tesla sales vs the ? 1800-2000 / year before.

And I do not deny that petrol prices rise and fall. Petrol right now is actually expensive - but not due to Oil prices but due to Government taxes and greed (in all of Europe). Petrol now is actually about the same price as when Oil was at $140/barrel. In 2009 where oil was around where it is now - Petrol was below £0.9 a litre. Now it is about .. 1.10-1.20.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jan/07/oil-v-petrol-how-the-prices-compare   <-- old article but still valid

in the USA there is a better correlation between Oil price and Petrol price:
http://www.macrotrends.net/2501/crude-oil-vs-gasoline-prices-chart

But in Europe we get screwed on taxes and greed etc.

So look in the crystal ball - and look into the future. What do you think will happen? If demand for electricity increase - what will happen with the price? If we have to put in new/upgraded infrastructure and build new power-plants - what will happen? The cost will be passed onto the consumer somehow - and consumption charges are the fastest way. So in time EV miles will become more expensive.

My personal goal for my property is to make myself independent of external suppliers. I do not have space for a lot of Solar so I could fit maybe 1.5-2.5 kW panels. Electric powered heat pumps (Ground Source or Air-Air/Air-Water) could bring me some windfall now - but not in the future when Electricity prices goes up - IF Natural Gas prices stay down.

So what it your ROI when Electricity costs doubles?... You will get "more" benefit from your solar panels.

And btw. Teslas are supposed to be "easier to maintain" but when I asked for annual maintenance cost at the Tesla garage - they quoted me prices similar to a BMW x6... Greed...

[Simon]

Yes I'm sure electricity could rise in price, but as things stand using electricity as "fuel" is 1/7 the price, there is a lot to go before electric equals petrol (OK the battery costs money). I don't know how the government will cope, perhaps they could close the tax loopholes then I would not have to be taxed so that I can drive to work to earn a wage to pay taxes on...... And with the spread of cheap solar panels and other ways to make electricity and the ability to store it the government won't have the ultimate monopoly on electricity so perhaps they should just move elsewhere with taxes. Amazingly it is not the technology or cost of the technology that is the barrier, but the fear of what the government will do, some sort of crowd panic. My employer could put solar panels on their roof and compete with the electricity companies for my custom in charging during the day as it is made.

[Simon]

Fact is we are either debating how the government should raise revenue or whether or not EV's are a viable technology. Perhaps if everyone complained more loudly and voted with their wallets more tax loopholes would close and we could start to live in a society that is a bit fairer where you don't have to fear the cost of buying the type of car you want that is better for your health and that of everyone else because apple refuse to pay tax in your country.....

[Fungus]

Your government comes up with almost identical numbers on their own comparison tool:

They show a Telsas energy costs for 12,000 miles per year costing roughly half as much as the Diesel comparison and 1/3rd as much as the Petrol.
2/18 <<< 6/18 < 9/18

Is that the same government that made the diesel/petrol really expensive by taxing it? 

[3roomlab]

And btw. Teslas are supposed to be "easier to maintain" but when I asked for annual maintenance cost at the Tesla garage - they quoted me prices similar to a BMW x6... Greed...

how much were you quoted in UK?

i think i heard annual 4-year fee to service is US$900 (in USA), but many drivers skip this to once every 2 years (so US$900 for 8 years?), because many have deemed there is "nothing" to service.

[Fungus]

A lot of folks give the Tesla S lots of shit because it's an expensive car.  But there have been plenty of lower priced EV's on the market for years and the fact is - they just don't sell.  The Volt, the Leaf, the Bolt, and numerous others. 

Those cars are cheaper than a Tesla, yes, but they all have cheaper gasoline equivalents. eg. You can buy a Nissan Micra for far less than a Nissan Leaf.

[Fungus]

Mysteriously all the hybrid and electric cars have been priced so that they will cost approximately the same over their life as the equivalent petrol or diesel vehicle

Yeah, weird, that.

It's like diesel cars costing about the same as petrol cars over the life of the car despite having a simpler engine and lower fuel costs. Coincidence...?

Still, Tesla will break them eventually. So far he's been aiming at the rich people so he can get some infrastructure and battery factories built.

This time he's aimed a bit lower and has half a million pre-orders. Net time around, who knows?

Eventually the old dinosaurs will be shown up for what they are.

[Simon]

The only increase in costs will be artificial ones, taxes and "garages" that will see their requirement drop. Sorry folks, move on find something else to make your money from. The electric car will come.

[Lord of nothing]

The Main problem with Electric Cars is how to power them Up when you life in an Apartment Complex without an Parking Lot (aka Parking on the Side walk).

[Simon]

The Main problem with Electric Cars is how to power them Up when you life in an Apartment Complex without an Parking Lot (aka Parking on the Side walk).

I have the same problem. I own a house without a driveway. now if the local council could see sense they could let me and my neighbors flatten our gardens to create a place where 4 houses can have 6 cars. But because that involves a "public footpath" that accesses me and my neighbor they won't despite it's to access our land and we want it. Indeed a lot needs to change

[kaz911]

And btw. Teslas are supposed to be "easier to maintain" but when I asked for annual maintenance cost at the Tesla garage - they quoted me prices similar to a BMW x6... Greed...

how much were you quoted in UK?

i think i heard annual 4-year fee to service is US$900 (in USA), but many drivers skip this to once every 2 years (so US$900 for 8 years?), because many have deemed there is "nothing" to service.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/maintenance-plans

Tesla UK service plan cheapest model S - between £450 and £825 / year or 12500 miles (which ever comes first) - 4 year total plan £2250,-

Porsche Panamera - £460 for minor (30.000km/18000 miles or every 2 years) - or £525 for major (60.000km or every 4 years)

So Porsche is a LOT cheaper / mile for service than Tesla.... Just about 1/2 price.

EDIT: Both charges extras for consumables. Spark plugs are consumables and will add to the cost, but not enough to overtake Tesla in price.

[bd139]

I know someone who owns a Porsche Cayenne and it's done more miles on a flatbed than the road...

Also you don't know expensive service until you've owned a Range Rover! I haven't myself but I regularly see people with £2k bills here and there.

[MT]

The problem is that most people just don't want them.  I think we are a technology revolution away from these vehicles actually selling, cuz right now they ain't.

In norway, every 3rd car is PHEV or EV. VW is spending some 82 Billion on electric cars. That is 4x Telsa all asset. Every Volvo will be electric or hybirid in two years. They just wont have other type of engine. And several countries ban sales of ICE cars completely.

The reason they sell in Norway is due to all kind of tax reduction-governmental subsidizing.

Owning a car in Norway is ridiculous expensive compared to many other European countries.
Giving Tesla owners privileges is a political statement to a certain class of citizens. In Norway regular people are asking why government are subsidizing Musk and building up his fortune by taxpayers money ! Want tensions in the fabric of a nation? please just continue.

For example if you own a Tesla etc you are entitled to the following  freedoms below. For the rest of us its tied with a hefty penalty.

1:General electric viecle tax reductions.
2:Free parking.
3:Free ride in buss and taxi only lanes.
4:Free ferry rides.
5:Free recharge at community recharge stations.
6:Free passage of road tolls.
7:Free other things i cant recall right now.
8:Freedomness from taxes when you lease a electric car.

Example in 2014 a Tesla S (defined as Luxury car) was 80000eu then 50000eu is subsidized by Norwegian
government the electrons in the recharge stations is bought from Swedish hydro stations.

Faast forward to 2017:
Electric car sales stagnated due to Norwegian gov want to implement a tax on "fume free cars" the so called
"Tesla tax"! Its a one time pay tax of 7000eu per car, the Norwegian electric car association is protesting.

So what the Norwegian government is doing in reality is taking money form those who cant afford to buy Telsa
cars and giving it to the rich who can afford to buy Tesla cars , that's why Musk is crook, besides his crookedly
PayPal days!


 

[Lord of nothing]

How about other Electric Cars? Is the benefit for all or just for Tesla?

[SeanB]

I know someone who owns a Porsche Cayenne and it's done more miles on a flatbed than the road...

Also you don't know expensive service until you've owned a Range Rover! I haven't myself but I regularly see people with £2k bills here and there.

I was mistaken as an employee at the Range Rover dealership, I dropped off one there so often that security, and half the staff, thought I actually worked there. I did not drive into the line like the rest, just went around and up to the parking bay they left open for the vehicle, dropped off the keys and left.  We called it the weekend car, because it lived in the dealership most weeks. 3 windshields in 3 weeks, with a 2 week wait for Solihull to airfreight out the crate of windshields, the sealants and installation kit as well, all on warranty. then to add insult to injury they did not do the radiator hose recall, and it blew going up a hill.

[bd139]

I know someone who owns a Porsche Cayenne and it's done more miles on a flatbed than the road...

Also you don't know expensive service until you've owned a Range Rover! I haven't myself but I regularly see people with £2k bills here and there.

I was mistaken as an employee at the Range Rover dealership, I dropped off one there so often that security, and half the staff, thought I actually worked there. I did not drive into the line like the rest, just went around and up to the parking bay they left open for the vehicle, dropped off the keys and left.  We called it the weekend car, because it lived in the dealership most weeks. 3 windshields in 3 weeks, with a 2 week wait for Solihull to airfreight out the crate of windshields, the sealants and installation kit as well, all on warranty. then to add insult to injury they did not do the radiator hose recall, and it blew going up a hill.

Exactly that. My old boss had one. Top spec brand new. Radiator hose went as well. Also it didn't lock half the time which is a pretty big feature. And within 50 miles of driving out of the show room, the water pump actually sheared off. He owns a Tesla Model S as of about 2 years ago. Never heard a complaint about it.

I myself drove a Defender for many years and that was the least reliable car I've ever driven. On the positive note you could usually drive it when whatever had broken was broken. Hole in turbo? Still drivable even though it sounded like arse.

[Simon]

Well I say it again. The problems are not necessarily with the technology but it's perception and politics. To be honest the greatest part of travel is to and from work, why are we taxed for being able to pay tax?

[Lord of nothing]

The problems are not necessarily with the technology

It is how to recharge on the Sidewalk?
The same when you Park on an Company Parking lot who should pay the Bill for the Power when you recharge it there?
People got fired for recharching there Mobile Phone at Work.

[phil from seattle]

The apartment charging issue is probably the single biggest stumbling block to wide spread adoption of EVs. There needs to be regulatory changes so that new housing has charging spots. Some cities in the US are making progress on that but it's still in the early days. Tesla has made a change in how SuperChargers can be accessed - above a certain amount of usage you pay. And, they are now putting a lot of SCs in urban areas. That's still a bit of a band-aid.

And, as other have pointed out, the "nobody wants EVs" is a completely false, wishful narrative. Something like 400K people plunked down $5000 USD for a spot in line for the Tesla Model 3. 

[tszaboo]

The problem is that most people just don't want them.  I think we are a technology revolution away from these vehicles actually selling, cuz right now they ain't.

In norway, every 3rd car is PHEV or EV. VW is spending some 82 Billion on electric cars. That is 4x Telsa all asset. Every Volvo will be electric or hybirid in two years. They just wont have other type of engine. And several countries ban sales of ICE cars completely.

The reason they sell in Norway is due to all kind of tax reduction-governmental subsidizing.

Owning a car in Norway is ridiculous expensive compared to many other European countries.
Giving Tesla owners privileges is a political statement to a certain class of citizens. In Norway regular people are asking why government are subsidizing Musk and building up his fortune by taxpayers money ! Want tensions in the fabric of a nation? please just continue.

I've actually looked this up.
Your incentives are basically:
Not paying tax, not paying fees.

This is like complaining, that EV drivers are not getting kicked in the back, like other drivers. I actually have no problem with this. Taxes were reduced. Taxes, that are for the working people. How is this a bad thing?

[Rick Law]

The Main problem with Electric Cars is how to power them Up when you life in an Apartment Complex without an Parking Lot (aka Parking on the Side walk).

Add to that, often, you have to switch which side of the sidewalk you can park on depending on day-of-week.

Even in most single-family housing developments, it is a problem.  Most such developments are single width driveways.  Multi-car garages or wide driveways are typically way beyond the means of many if not most.

For most families, if husband & wife both have EV's, one has to charge every other night.  If they have a college age kid with another EV, that family need cars with a three-day range.

Since most would be charging at night, they would be drawing mostly from our coal/oil/gas power plant - which means our local electrical grid would be stressed to meet such demand too.  Most developers would not leave a lot of extras so as to minimize cost.  I don't know this (what follows) for sure but based on human nature -  If that development has 100 house with average 200A fuse box, I would bet the cable going into that development would be sized just for just that with very little extra.

There is a business opportunity here - small gas powered charger that you can tow along for long trips, or push across the other side of the sidewalk to charge the other car.