EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[KennethAa]

David,

I'd like to help you out in figuring out the packet based comm you mentioned in the X-carve V3 video. Contact me.

With regards,
Kenneth

[dcac]

They change it again!

Alexander.

Seems the same to me as this one:


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163005

...or am I missing something?

[dcac]

What I find really annoying is that none of the changes has been announced on their IGG Update page. Seems obvious to me to explain any changes in the product goal or specification, especially after the campaign already started,  so people who already paid are given a chance to re-evaluate the situation and possibly ask for their money back.

[miguelvp]

What I find really annoying is that none of the changes has been announced on their IGG Update page. Seems obvious to me to explain any changes in the product goal or specification, especially after the campaign already started,  so people who already paid are given a chance to re-evaluate the situation and possibly ask for their money back.

Maybe IGG is really investigating and bringing things up so they are forced to change their claims unless they can prove them, and they are not ready to prove them.

[amyk]

I like how their claims are getting more and more vague, presumably because Dave and the others are shooting them down one by one.

They started off with "8x longer", pure bullshit like "1.5V of energy" (), failed spectacularly with something about "number of 0.1V steps" (here, someone might want to save that article in case they want it taken down), and now they're basically down to "a lot of energy left" and "makes it last longer".

It would be funny to see if it turns into "Batteriser may make batteries last longer for some devices under some usage conditions", which would certainly be true, but I doubt they would be as successful with the marketing if they said that.

[rs20]

...(here, someone might want to save that article in case they want it taken down)...

Wow, that article is spectacular:

<picture of massive pile of batteries>
This is my collection of spent alkaline batteries. Maybe it’s a good thing I never recycled them—with Batteriser I may never need to buy another battery again (barring leaks, of course).

A four-pack of Duracell AAs costs $4 on Amazon. Slip those AAs into a $10 set of Batterisers, and the circuit boosters will pay for themselves after three typical battery life cycles. Then, after that, you’ll theoretically get another five cycles of free battery life. And after that, the batteries themselves will be dead, but the Batterisers will live on to boost the lives of new batteries.

[miguelvp]

That´s the story that started it all.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/'batterizer'-claims-to-increase-disposable-battery-life-8x/

So I´m pretty sure it´s going to stay put in there, just part of the marketing machine.

Pretty effective way to be picked up by the media, espionage and conspiracies, that would get the ball rolling!

[Kjelt]

It would be funny to see if it turns into "Batteriser may make batteries last longer for some devices under some usage conditions"

Continuing on this road they will end up selling the batteriser as a stainless steel protective sleeve to avoid scratches on your batteries 

[Muttley Snickers]

It would be funny to see if it turns into "Batteriser may make batteries last longer for some devices under some usage conditions"

Continuing on this road they will end up selling the batteriser as a stainless steel protective sleeve to avoid scratches on your batteries 

Two other options for the marketing department are as follows based on current trends :

1. Do your batteries roll off the table at the most inconvenient moments, even Mr Dave Jones himself suffers terribly with this most irritating problem, we may have a solution.....

2. Are you safety conscious and concerned about the disposal of batteries that still have some remaining power left in them, well we are, and you should be, our new device can assist by safely dissipating that dangerously stored energy.....

Copyright : Dont even think about it. !


Muttley

[EEVblog]

I like how their claims are getting more and more vague, presumably because Dave and the others are shooting them down one by one.
They started off with "8x longer", pure bullshit like "1.5V of energy" (), failed spectacularly with something about "number of 0.1V steps" (here, someone might want to save that article in case they want it taken down), and now they're basically down to "a lot of energy left" and "makes it last longer".

And what they say in the promo video has changed as I mentioned a while back.
It used to say
"did you know all the batteries you've ever used have only used up to 20% of their battery life."
Now it's
"Did you know that a significant number of dead batteries you throw away had only used roughly 20% of their battery life"
 

And of course their new "significant number" claim is now even on more shaky legs because they have admitted that most products have a dropout voltage of 1.1V under load, on both their main page (now removed) and their FAQ.

Almost to a point of where a Wiki info article is required to keep up to date with all the changes!

[EEVblog]

Might be a good idea to update the "the batteriser explained" page with that admission!

Good idea, will go do that now.

[meeder]

The also claim that testing devices with a bench supply is not a good test. They even explain that in a video but right of the bat they do something completely wrong. They show that a device works until 0.9V with a powersupply but when using two batteries with around 1.2V in each cell it fails. But they measure the voltage of the batteries without a load so it doesn't claim much IMHO.

Check their website and especially their FAQ.

[EEVblog]

The also claim that testing devices with a bench supply is not a good test. They even explain that in a video but right of the bat they do something completely wrong. They show that a device works until 0.9V with a powersupply but when using two batteries with around 1.2V in each cell it fails. But they measure the voltage of the batteries without a load so it doesn't claim much IMHO.
Check their website and especially their FAQ.

Only until quite recently have they finally admitted that they measure battery volote not under load. Their entire patent and business model is developed around this fundamentally and embarrassing wrong technique.

[EEVblog]

Another "technical" video coming, we can't wait!:
From the Indigog comments from Mr Batteriser:

@Robert P Appreciate your very good question. We are in the process of making a technical video that shows how our Intelligent power management circuit would perform and address the issue that you have raised. This is why we call the Batteriser technology an intelligent power management and not just a simple DC-DC boost circuit

Funny thing is I can't find the questions from "Robert P"

[Kjelt]

Funny thing is I can't find the questions from "Robert P"

From Robert P's facebook page 

[amyk]

The also claim that testing devices with a bench supply is not a good test. They even explain that in a video but right of the bat they do something completely wrong. They show that a device works until 0.9V with a powersupply but when using two batteries with around 1.2V in each cell it fails. But they measure the voltage of the batteries without a load so it doesn't claim much IMHO.

I strongly believe that's deliberate. They know it doesn't work so they try to carefully sidestep the problem and sell it anyway. All the marketing is part of that. They won't ever give you a straight answer, including measuring the loaded voltage, because they know that would count against them.

[EEVblog]

They won't ever give you a straight answer, including measuring the loaded voltage, because they know that would count against them.

They have actually admitted the loaded voltage is 1.1V, it was on their front page for a few days. It's still in their FAQ last I looked.

[LabSpokane]

I would love to add a FAQ to the Batteriser site called "Why Dr. Roohparvar cannot apply Thevenin's Theorem."

[Galenbo]

... "Why Dr. Roohparvar cannot apply Thevenin's Theorem."

...yes but internal resistance and power supplies...
:-)

[LabSpokane]

... "Why Dr. Roohparvar cannot apply Thevenin's Theorem."

...yes but internal resistance and power supplies...
:-)

Fear not, for  I connected a 0.233242233214698 Ohm resistor in series with my power supply when I ran my trackpad test.

At 5ma, it changed *everything*...


... by 0.001V   

[firewalker]

Didn't the use an Apple keyboard to demonstrate the batteriser? How often has someone to change batteries to that keyboard. For my wireless keyboard is 2xAAA every 2,5 years.



Alexander.

[EEVblog]

Didn't the use an Apple keyboard to demonstrate the batteriser? How often has someone to change batteries to that keyboard. For my wireless keyboard is 2xAAA every 2,5 years.

That's another admission that will go in my blog article update.
The funny thing is, with that (obvious and always demonstrably true) admission it also shows that their custom ASIC that goes down to 0.5/0.6V is practically pointless, as there is virtually no energy left under 0.8V, except at very low currents which they are now saying the Batterier is not suited to.
And they used examples like low power wireless keyboards and remote controls extensively in their marketing campaigns. Oops, how embarrassing 

[firewalker]

It seems the battery file for an Apple wireless keyboard (small aluminum one) is couple of months... What do they use the battery for? Heating up the aluminum plate for a warm touch? 

I can see product engineers to try and solve complaints about wrong battery indicators in products.

Also there is another answers to question that don't exist on IGG comments. 

Alexander.

[PeterL]

They came up with some proof, here:



a Garmin GPS runs 5 times longer with the aid of batteriser.

It looks convincing, but I just can't believe this is right. Garmin engineers know what they are doing, I'm pretty sure of that.

So after a little search this product seems to be a Garmin Dakota. ( https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod30925.html )

Now you can see this Dakota has a DC-DC converter just from the data that Batteroo provides (at 1:24), since the current consumption is rising to counteract the dropping voltage. You can also see some power saving actions kicking in at the end.

I checked the manual, and this state a battery life of max 20 hour, but of course that's with the backlight of.
But the manual also states that you have to select battery type. And this thing will run on alkaline, NiMH or Lithium. Now somehow I don't think they used the alkaline setting...

[LabSpokane]

The current consumption of the Batteriser is in micro amps...

How many uA would that be Bob?  Because that is going to make a huge difference in the battery lifetime of people's devices, particularly things like remote controls where the batteries can last for years. A few hundred uA of constant, parasitic load will shorten that life to months.

Yet another fantastic reason to NOT double up on boost converters.