EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Fungus]

I chose one with a large number of batterisers, and am planning to mail Dave some to play around with.  (Assuming he didn't already support their campaign himself with the same goal of disproving their bullshit 80% claim)

I think we should start a pool for betting on the conversion efficiency. We could pick a few output currents and whoever gets the closest wins a prize (or something).

10mA output with 1.1V input? I'll say 90% efficient.
50mA output with 1.1V input? I'll say 83%
100mA output with 1.1V input? Only 72% efficient with that tiny inductor.
200mA output with 1.1V input? 55%.
500mA output with 1.1V input? 20% if it even manages to maintain 1.5V output (I have my doubts)

Edit: Just remembered this is a forum full of engineers 

No cheating by using SPICE or whatever. What does your gut feeling tell you?

(Or post two answers, gut feeling first then SPICE afterwards...)

[Fungus]

I don't think there's a garantee of that on any crowdfunding site.

Can't you even get a refund in that case?

Nope. This isn't a grocery store.

You're supposed to evaluate the credibility of the campaign before buyingsending any money.

[edy]

I still see now way they can bring this into mass-production with about *only* $300,000. They are definitely relying on the $1 million+ from Investors to get this rolled out. And they expect this by November? What planet are we living on?

What REALLY seems to be going on here is that everything was already made... 2-3 years ago, and the crowd-funding is all a publicity-making machine. Seems like it is all done... So the question is, who bank-rolled the actual development? Possibly some INVESTOR GROUP that wants to cash out. And is this crowd-funding campaign forced by the Investors to somehow raise enough capital (or so were the hopes) to get their money and bail out, leaving the public crowd-funders holding the bag?

[HighVoltage]

How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.

He doesn't say this. He tries a lot of unrelated weaselspeak. At 9:25 he says "if you really want to know how much is left". He doesn't say "how much energy is left". And of course, for 100 mA constant current, he is right. 50% runtime is left.

PS: I just noticed that at 9:16 in the video he says, "if you use a constant resistor, you can use the area under the curve", which is wrong, because the curve is for constant current, and when the voltage drops, the current would drop, too with a constant resistor.

Yes, may be ... but...
Well, at 14:: to 14:14 he clearly points to it as "Energy" under the curve.

This guy really must believe that we all are belonging to the 90% group of the people that he believes do not get the riddle.
There are so many flaws in this video, it really is embarrassing.

[lpickup]

Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

[edy]

This guy really must believe that we all are belonging to the 90% group of the people that he believes do not get the riddle.

First time I didn't get the riddle..             Need to wake up my brain cells.      Good thing I'm not developing the Batteriser then.

[apis]

Eventually got around to do some quick tests of battery operated gadgets from around the house.

Couldn't find so many though, most stuff uses Lithium rechargeable these days:

• Game Boy Color: Still running at about 0,9 V when at highest sound setting and playing a game.
• Headlight: Still bright at < 0,9 V per cell.
• Wireless optical mouse: Still working at 0,25 V per cell.
• Radio-controlled Alarm Clock: 1,1 V per cell (LCD still readable).
• CASIO fx-82LB: LCD still readable at 1,1 V (more than 15 years old, rated 0,0004 W and still using the original CASIO branded alkaline batteries!)
• TI82 Calculator: LCD display still readable at ~ 1,1 V (about 20 years old).
• DECT phone handset: 1,25 V (made for NiMH batteries so not really relevant).

Looks like I won't be needing a Batteriser.

[PeterL]

Update: The comments have been re-enabled on the video. My question came back!

It's must have been a mistake that it was disabled. After all Franky specifically asked for our reactions at the end of the video..

Or they just want to get more traffic to the video, to get a higher ranking in the search results on youtube.

[Hugoneus]

Update: The comments have been re-enabled on the video. My question came back!

It's must have been a mistake that it was disabled. After all Franky specifically asked for our reactions at the end of the video..
Or they just want to get more traffic to the video, to get a higher ranking in the search results on youtube.

I don't see any actual comments.

[firewalker]

There used to be comments on the others videos. Not anymore.

Alexander.

[FrankBuss]

Looks like they deleted all comments. I just tested it on one of my videos: if you turn off comments and then turn it on again, the comments are still there.

[photon]

Dave, I see a bright future for you doing due-diligence for VC's. 

[LabSpokane]

Dave, I see a bright future for you doing due-diligence for VC's. 

The only problem is that virtually no VC wants that. The major issue with the Batteriser is not that it won't help, but that it was so easily shown to be a boobyhatch.

[edy]

I agree. Venture Capitalists are interested in a return on their investment.... not whether something actually works or not. They are only interested in getting back their money with interest and throwing on to the next chum (whether it be other public investors, crowd-funders, another company) to sort it all out.

I think the biggest blunder Batteriser did was then probably to crowd-fund their product. They should have just launched with "TV INFOMMERCIALS" and made money the old fashioned way, without anyone ever having the opportunity or time to critique it. I can see it now... 

"Call now, for a limited time you can get yours for only $9.99. But wait, there's more! And it's not sold in any store! If you are one of the first to call, you will not only get 1 Batteriser... But 2! Yes! Double your order! Not satisfied? We will also throw in this battery tester valued at over $20. Oh hold on... We are going crazy here at the factory. We are willing to give you not 2, but 4! Yes 4! If you call in the next 10 minutes! Do it now before this incredible offer disappears forever! You get 4 Batterisers each valued at $9.99, a battery tester for $20, a total value of almost $60..... All yours for ONLY $9.99 (plus shipping and handling of $14.99 and sales taxes not included)."

 

[Rasz]

Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

AHAHAHAHAHAHA good joke, would be pretty sweet if it was true tho haha

[edy]

Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

AHAHAHAHAHAHA good joke, would be pretty sweet if it was true tho haha

Google serves up ads based on your profile, so perhaps if we are all typing and searching for Batteriser a lot, there is an opportunity for Batteriser to show up in ads of videos we watch. Batteriser can also target specific keywords for advertising. However funny that would be, I don't think it is worth it for them to spend that kind of money to appear on pages and sites and videos that actual Engineers are watching who know what they are doing. So likely a fluke with your browser shortcut or cache, and not Google or YouTube. :-)

[AmmoJammo]

What REALLY seems to be going on here is that everything was already made... 2-3 years ago, and the crowd-funding is all a publicity-making machine.

I don't think so.... the lack of a functional AAA version, and the fact that I'm still pretty sure it physically can't be done, makes me believe that nothing is in production, and will never be in production...

[EEVblog]

What REALLY seems to be going on here is that everything was already made... 2-3 years ago, and the crowd-funding is all a publicity-making machine. Seems like it is all done...

If that is the case then why don't they have real final units to show the media. At least one report from a journalist I've spoken to said the prototype failed in two devices he tried, and they struck it up to being a prototype issue that will be sorted out in production.
Also, if it's already finished, why isn't there any technical data released at all?

[EEVblog]

It's must have been a mistake that it was disabled. After all Franky specifically asked for our reactions at the end of the video..
Or they just want to get more traffic to the video, to get a higher ranking in the search results on youtube.

Well, they got their feedback, 77 thumbs down to 16 thumbs up so far.

[lpickup]

Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

AHAHAHAHAHAHA good joke, would be pretty sweet if it was true tho haha

Google serves up ads based on your profile, so perhaps if we are all typing and searching for Batteriser a lot, there is an opportunity for Batteriser to show up in ads of videos we watch. Batteriser can also target specific keywords for advertising. However funny that would be, I don't think it is worth it for them to spend that kind of money to appear on pages and sites and videos that actual Engineers are watching who know what they are doing. So likely a fluke with your browser shortcut or cache, and not Google or YouTube. :-)

Absolutely no joke.  I honestly thought Dave was doing a spoof or something, and then I thought I accidentally clicked the wrong video--I was amazed to see actual comments posted given they had disabled them, but couldn't figure out why people were asking about where to get scale mail on a Batteriser video.  That's when I realized it was their ad.

I'm not surprised that it fed me that ad with all the reloads of the GPS video I had been doing to look at comments.  I AM surprised that "Batteroo Batteriser", who disclaims that they are in no way associated with Batteroo, the company that makes Batteriser, would pay $$$, and probably some very serious $$$, to run that video as an ad.  I've never advertised on YouTube, so not sure if there is a premium for longer ads and whether they are charged by how long the viewer watched.  But if so, I hope I cost them some coin as I let it run while I took the screen shot and posted the last post.

I guess it's official though:  Dave, you officially have financially benefited from the Batteriser!

BTW, I doubt that advertisers have too much control over what videos their ads appear on.  It all comes down to what Google/YouTube thinks the viewer is going to want to see based on their browsing history.  Kind of like how Dave's Batteriser vids pop up as the recommended videos for the Batteriser videos.  I watch a lot of Electric Vehicle videos and the ads that come up there are usually for huge Chevy trucks, exactly the opposite type of vehicle I would be interested in, but Google/YouTube is not smart enough to figure that distinction out.

[Jay_Diddy_B]

What REALLY seems to be going on here is that everything was already made... 2-3 years ago, and the crowd-funding is all a publicity-making machine. Seems like it is all done...

If that is the case then why don't they have real final units to show the media. At least one report from a journalist I've spoken to said the prototype failed in two devices he tried, and they struck it up to being a prototype issue that will be sorted out in production.
Also, if it's already finished, why isn't there any technical data released at all?

I am not surprised that the prototype failed in the device that he tried in. Here are some measurement that I made on my boost converter circuit based on the LTC3539 chip.

First I measured the current consumption of a Fuji Camera, I am not sure of the model, but at least five years old, it use and XD card.

Here is the current consumption while taken a picture with the flash on. The current is 200mA measured with a Tektronix TCP202 dc current probe:




Same setup without using the flash:



And the current drawn during start up:



If I zoom into the peak, I see this:




The batteriser needs to be able supply about 1A of peak current if used in this camera.

So now I know what the peak current looks like I can use an electronic load.

This picture shows the battery terminal (input), blue trace, using the boost circuit:




Without the boost circuit, the battery terminal voltage looks like this:




The battery voltage drop less without the boost circuit than with.

Note: Some the components I am using are too big to fit in the batteriser clip.

FAIL

for high current devices like digital cameras.


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[AmmoJammo]

Ya don't need no damn measurements and simulations, just whack it in a camera and see if it works!

I did this, it didn't work.

[EEVblog]

I AM surprised that "Batteroo Batteriser", who disclaims that they are in no way associated with Batteroo, the company that makes Batteriser, would pay $$$, and probably some very serious $$$, to run that video as an ad. 

That is very surprising! Someone is paying big money for that, google do not put those there for free, they are payed and targeted ads. Perhaps even targeting my Batteriser videos directly (In Google Adwords you can target specific video or channels and associated keyworks)
I've seen the Batteriser Adsense ads for the website, but not the "fan" videos before.

[P_Doped]

Jay_Diddy_B says: The battery voltage drop less without the boost circuit than with.

The droop from the boost can be larger than the raw battery output and it's o.k.  The comparison is the voltage presented to the load.  So, the comparison is the minimum value from the boost vs. battery alone.  If the battery is at 1.2V and then drops to 1.1V (100mV droop) compared with the boosted voltage at 1.5V which drops to 1.3V (200mV droop) when the current load step hits, the boost droop is larger, but the boosted voltage is still o.k. (i.e. will not trigger an undervoltage event).

This is voltage positioning, used in a variety of places where a load step is anticipated and the finite output impedance of the voltage source needs to be dealt with.

[edy]

I am convinced that we will see a product shipped. Not sure about November though. Why? Because the folks behind Batteriser are well accessible, not some anonymous scammers in the remote woods. Seems very foolish if they are blatantly scamming. However, if it won't work as stated and likely just psychologically trick the mind into thinking that it lasts much longer... Seems like career sabotage if it is complete crap.  If they haven't assembled a production chain already, how can they do it in 3 months on such little ($300k funding and maybe $1 mil VC)? That's why I feel like they have built a production line already and don't show working models because they know it doesn't work. Unless...  They give back the money and claim some conspiracy to save face. At least we don't have to wait long to find out.