Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 3060489 times)

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Offline pickle9000

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #600 on: August 19, 2015, 06:47:38 am »

 :-DD

EMERGENCY!
Quick, what is the best idea we can come up with to delay the engineering video that no one will dare question?
That's it, THE TROOPS!
 :-DD

U.S.A. U.S.A., Next up... Child stuck in well needs light, then something bunny related.
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #601 on: August 19, 2015, 06:53:37 am »

 :-DD

Would be quicker to just measure the cut off voltage! Or possibly even just RTFM?
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #602 on: August 19, 2015, 06:55:49 am »
When I was in the army, we was "forced" to keep our batteries (alkaline) in the fridge. Does it help at all for long time storage?

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline ccs46

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #603 on: August 19, 2015, 07:00:00 am »
When I was in the army, we was "forced" to keep our batteries (alkaline) in the fridge. Does it help at all for long time storage?

Alexander.
Nope makes it worse.
Normal people... believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet. - Scott Adams
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #604 on: August 19, 2015, 07:01:58 am »
When I was in the army, we was "forced" to keep our batteries (alkaline) in the fridge. Does it help at all for long time storage?

Alexander.
Nope makes it worse.
There's three ways to do anything: The right way, the wrong way, and the army way.
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #605 on: August 19, 2015, 08:16:58 am »
I sense a military model.

The Battalioniser

Men don your flak flat jackets.
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #606 on: August 19, 2015, 08:25:40 am »


Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #607 on: August 19, 2015, 08:32:09 am »
U.S.A. U.S.A., Next up... Child stuck in well needs light, then something bunny related.

You can't write comedy this good! Batteriser is the product that just keeps on giving  :-DD
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #609 on: August 19, 2015, 08:41:38 am »

Alexander.

Right there he is demonstrably wrong once again.
"The use of a bench power supply to determine device cutoff voltage is inaccurate."
And what the hell does the current limit setting have to do with it? That's for device overcurrent protection!
This is utterly stunning coming from a PhD EE, professor, very experienced designer in the power industry, and someone who's spent 5 years developing a battery boost converter.
Absolutely gob smackingly amazingly embarrassing statement.
Where does he think the battery cutoff voltage is measured?
It doesn't matter how many times he repeats this nonsense, it won't magically make it true.

Unfortunately he's between a rock and hard place. He's made these absurdly provably wrong statements and either has to admit he was wrong, or just keep sprouting them.
Either way he's a made himself into a laughing stock.
 

Offline PeterL

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #610 on: August 19, 2015, 09:12:29 am »

Alexander.

Right there he is demonstrably wrong once again.
"The use of a bench power supply to determine device cutoff voltage is inaccurate."
And what the hell does the current limit setting have to do with it? That's for device overcurrent protection!
This is utterly stunning coming from a PhD EE, professor, very experienced designer in the power industry, and someone who's spent 5 years developing a battery boost converter.
Absolutely gob smackingly amazingly embarrassing statement.
Where does he think the battery cutoff voltage is measured?
It doesn't matter how many times he repeats this nonsense, it won't magically make it true.

Unfortunately he's between a rock and hard place. He's made these absurdly provably wrong statements and either has to admit he was wrong, or just keep sprouting them.
Either way he's a made himself into a laughing stock.
Strange that they're going into so much trouble explaining the technology anyway, since Bob already told us long time ago that it's nothing new, only the miniaturization is:
Quote
Voltage boosters are nothing new, but Batteriser scales down the technology to the point where it can fit inside a stainless steel sleeve less than 0.1 mm thick. Roohparvar says the sleeves are thin enough to fit inside almost every battery compartment imaginable, and the combined package can extend battery life between 4.9x for devices like remote controls and 9.1x for various electronic toys.

“The Batteriser has boost circuitry that will boost the voltage from 0.6 volts to 1.5 volts and will maintain voltage at 1.5—which is a brand new battery,” Roohparvar says. “There’s actually no IP [intellectual property] in the boost circuitry. Our technology is really a miniaturization technique that allows us to build the sleeve. We have some IP in some of the IC circuits that are in there, but the key is we’ve been able to miniaturize the boost circuit to a point that no one else has been able to achieve. “
 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #611 on: August 19, 2015, 09:38:17 am »
Strange that they're going into so much trouble explaining the technology anyway, since Bob already told us long time ago that it's nothing new, only the miniaturization is:

Yes, very strange.
They seem to be under some delusion that engineers don't have a clue about how a boost converter works, or what the internal resistance of a battery is, or how to measure cutoff voltage etc. Even though millions of new products gets designed every year with complete understanding of this stuff. It's bread and butter stuff to any engineer.
Was speaking to a company the other day that makes well know high end commercial battery testers, and they are as stunned and baffled at the Batteriser's silly claims as everyone else is. They saw their monkey video and went  :wtf:
 

Offline Joule Thief

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #612 on: August 19, 2015, 10:01:02 am »
I just stumbled across this

https://youtu.be/FjQL4rtKFKw

 :palm: The analogy drawn is "your the man who squeezes the last bit out of the toothpaste tube".

And you know, for most people, that might just be the most visually graphic and accurate statement yet made about the product. Now try to convince my mind's eye I'm going to be getting 8x more toothpaste from my tube than I'm used to.

BTW  I'm not the jolliest joker in the bunch but keeping a wide grin like that on your face for 7 plus minutes has to hurt!
Perturb and observe.
 

Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #613 on: August 19, 2015, 10:25:21 am »


Let's try thinking his way, just for the fun. As long as the monkey gets enough current it keeps running. The lab PSU provides sufficient current (very low internal resistance) even at low voltages. A battery can't do that, because its internal resistance is higher and also increases during discharge. The problem with measuring the battery's cut off voltage is that the voltage breaks down with the high load current and the batterry's internal resistance. Since you can't measure the battery's voltage before the internal resistance, they use the batteries until the monkey stops and than measure the batteries' voltage unloaded, i.e. neglecting the internal resistance (DMM is a tiny load causing a very low voltage drop on the internal resistance).

That would explain the high(er) cut off voltages, they are claiming. But that measurement of the cut off voltage is only valid for a specific battery A from vendor B and should be repeated several times to get some average value to cope with differences between the batteries. And what about other battery types and vendors? This method doesn't make any sense. The only thing you get from this is how long the monkey would run with a specific battery.

Any effect on the Batteriser? When the batteries are so discharged that they can't deliver enough current for the monkey anymore, how could they possibly deliver even more current for a boost converter? The monkey video is actually a good example how Batteriser would fail.
 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #614 on: August 19, 2015, 10:32:14 am »
I just stumbled across this

He claims 1.5A output current.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #615 on: August 19, 2015, 10:32:28 am »
...This is utterly stunning coming from a PhD EE, professor, very experienced designer in the power industry, and someone who's spent 5 years developing a battery boost converter.
Is this PhD stuff and other degrees proven? Where did he buy it? Is it possible the guy' identity is stolen and used? Is there only one Bob Roohpavar? ...

But I heard similar stuff before from an Master Electrical Engineer, turned out he had always worked in the sales department of a distributor.
He said he worked there in what they called the research department but the only thing they did is research the manuals to give the customers some sales info.
They said to be very-close to real-engineering, (yes one time a year for evaluation) till all the way up in management and production (to ask when the items will be delivered)

 
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #616 on: August 19, 2015, 10:39:42 am »
Since you can't measure the battery's voltage before the internal resistance, they use the batteries until the monkey stops and than measure the batteries' voltage unloaded

The point is they could have, and should have, measured the battery voltage under load inside the money. If they did that, they would have found that the monkey would have stopped working at exactly the same voltage as what the PSU did.

Quote
That would explain the high(er) cut off voltages, they are claiming. But that measurement of the cut off voltage is only valid for a specific battery A from vendor B and should be repeated several times to get some average value to cope with differences between the batteries. And what about other battery types and vendors? This method doesn't make any sense.

It makes zero sense.
The batteries I used in my low current discharge testing all the way to zero volts are back up to over 1V now. They will only power a few 10's of mA for a little while at this point, as there is barely any juice left in the batteries. Put them in the monkey and they'd do nothing of course. I'm in two minds about whether to do a video showing this.

Quote
Any effect on the Batteriser? When the batteries are so discharged that they can't deliver enough current for the monkey anymore, how could they possibly deliver even more current for a boost converter? The monkey video is actually a good example how Batteriser would fail.

Bingo!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 10:43:53 am by EEVblog »
 

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #617 on: August 19, 2015, 10:42:59 am »
Is this PhD stuff and other degrees proven? Where did he buy it? Is it possible the guy' identity is stolen and used? Is there only one Bob Roohpavar? ...

Yes. No one doubts his credentials as there is no reason to.
Not uncommon for people with such a high qualifications to be clueless about practical stuff, just like anyone else is capable of getting it wrong, especially when they are so invested in it and truly believe in it.
It's like Nobel prize winnings scientists who are creationists. Or the Solar Roadways guy who has a masters in EE.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 11:34:08 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline AccountRemovedPerUsersRequest

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #618 on: August 19, 2015, 11:08:16 am »
Enough words Bob. If your theory is proven in practice, just send one unit to Dave (or any other reliable person) and lets verify it! Or... you could start by putting Batteriser into that clapping monkey after batteries have run out. It should keep on clapping 8 times longer than the initial stage without batteriser... right?

Axel.

(and yes... this comment was deliberately pointed to Bob using EEVblog forum)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 11:14:00 am by axel15 »
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #619 on: August 19, 2015, 11:24:12 am »
Anyone else here worked 5 years to "develop" or "invent" something?

I mean like really working on it, not only the saturday mornings or only on hollidays.
And 5 years for the first prototype, not during 5 years on continuous improvements on working devices.
Only on the technical/development/prototype side, not on installing a production plant for it in China, or lobbying/public image/marketing/publicity movies.

Really, 5 years?
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #620 on: August 19, 2015, 11:24:23 am »
Yes. No one doubts his credentials as there is no reason to.
Not uncommon for people with such a high qualifications to be clueless about practical stuff, just like anyone else is capable of getting it wrong, especially when they are so invested in it and truly believe in it.
It's like Nobel prize winnings scientists who are creationists.
I'm not buying that.

Nobody who's capable of designing the batteriser can believe the "8x" claim.

The person who scripted/shot the monkey video can't possibly have not thought of putting the batteriser in the monkey.

etc.

This is deliberate fraud.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #621 on: August 19, 2015, 11:33:33 am »
Open letter to Bob (we know you read this):

Why can't you:

a) Put the batteriser onto two batteries that don't work in the monkey (eg. the ones you used in the video). Show us the monkey moving afterwards.

b) Put two identical devices side by side. One with batterizer, one without. Film the setup until one of them shuts down. Use flashlights, monkeys, GPS units, whatever you want. (nb. With GPS or similar we'll want to see the battery selection settings).

No shenanigans. Just film the process openly from start to finish.

They're two very easy, obvious tests. Either one of them will go a long way towards silencing every critic on the planet.
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #622 on: August 19, 2015, 11:48:16 am »

They're two very easy, obvious tests. Either one of them will go a long way towards silencing every critic on the planet.

Because that's impossible...
 

Offline Joule Thief

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #623 on: August 19, 2015, 11:55:22 am »
I just stumbled across this

He claims 1.5A output current.

that notion was mentioned
maybe not so much a performance claim but a brief allusion to a "we need and would be nice to have" eyes closed, fingers crosses, tongue at the right angle hope and dream

Just as an aside, if you really want to develop critical listening skills and fine tune your BS sensor, watch home shopping networks. I heard a gentleman selling a vegetable slicer and dicer
say if I use his product, it will cut a cucumber so thin the one cucumber WILL LAST A WHOLE YEAR! This was immediately followed by the woman who was selling portable device power "sticks" to power smartphones, IPads, etc for a few more hours. The one point she emphasized was to buy TWO sticks and .....wait for it .... recharge the first stick with the second stick to keep your smart phone going thru the rest of your vacation day and not miss one picture taking opportunity.  :palm:

I just don't get lathered up about these devices or protecting the innocent from purchasing them. If it's not the Batteriser, it will be the vegetable slicer.

I can't save them all Clarise.
Perturb and observe.
 

Offline onlooker

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #624 on: August 19, 2015, 11:56:08 am »
It is quite surprising that, with all the credentials of the batteriser guys, their EE knowledge are dubious for that they can't, at least in theory, properly argue the roll of internal resistance of a battery to their advantage: It is all about impedence matching for delivering a max power.

That is,  consider a voltage source with a serial resistor (V and Ri). The max power such a setup can deliver is when the load has  an equal resistance (impedence) as Ri. At the max power the load receives a voltage = V/2.

Now, if V/2 (e.g. 0.75V) is too low to have the load work properly, but the max power is just about high enough for the load to work, a converter is the way to solve the problem.

Then, in practice, too many factors are ignored from such an ideal model. Only real benchmarks can prove or disprove the claims.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 12:24:55 pm by onlooker »
 


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