Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 3059796 times)

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Offline jippie

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #775 on: August 24, 2015, 10:24:41 am »
It's really funny to see that a company that should have so much money to buy cheap chinese stuff for their "EE lab"? Why I don't see any agilent/tek/... or even Rigol branded TE stuffs?
There was a Rigol DS1054Z and a Tektronix current probe. They didn't show if the probes were properly compensated.

The video is unnecessarily lengthy to make their point. They don't show Batteriser at all, nor a real side by side comparison. The Garmin screen with the pop up notification looks to me like the text is intentionally smudged beyond readability. They don't properly show their test setup, it is unclear where they measure voltage and current and how long (and thing) the leads are they use. In all cases the battery holders were extended with wires to place them outside the DUT. They didn't show that the Batterizered batteries actually fit (physically, in length and diameter in the DUT's battery compartments.

I understand his "under the curve" vs. "boxed" argument (it is basically using two Y-axis, one in volts the other in ampères it should've been explained more clealy), but this is only accurate for a constant current load which is in my opinion very unlikely. I can't imagine a load would draw the same current at a 1.5V battery voltage as at a 0.8V battery voltage.

My 1.76 €ct
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 10:29:42 am by jippie »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #776 on: August 24, 2015, 10:26:17 am »
There's 10 minutes of stating the obvious (explaining how batteries work), two outright lies, then half an hour of mind-numbing mumbling while looking at oscilloscopes
To save people from sitting through that awful video:

a) Apparently you have to include the area above the battery discharge curve when you're dealing with constant current devices, not just the area below it.

(No, I don't get it either, he just states that as a fact and gives no explanation.)

b) Due to ESR, sudden spikes in current demand can cause sudden voltage drops at the battery terminals. If the voltage drops low enough during a huge spike then the device will shut down prematurely. This in turn makes you think the batteries are dead when they're really half full (or whatever).

This is what the robot finger on the GPS is for - to cause big current spikes.

Does Batteriser prevent this voltage drop by drawing even more current from the battery to compensate? :-// This isn't explained.

Well, it might be but my brain went into shutdown after 20 minutes of mumbling and oscilloscope traces to prove that current draw in devices isn't constant.

(It isn't? Really??? I guess it takes a PhD to know clever stuff like that!!!  :palm: )

Edit: I don't mean the ESR voltage drops are a lie, I mean I don't believe the effect is causing millions of people to throw perfectly good batteries away.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 10:37:10 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Godzil

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #777 on: August 24, 2015, 10:31:05 am »
I love the pc with the opened (and modified but not saved) FR_AA.cir file that in the ~/Download folder,
The "Eldo User's Manual" pdf file opened
And best, the user login on the laptop: Engineer, and the laptop is named "Batteroo"
Sound strange, they have only one computer so that they named it the same as their company? and they only have one person working there "Engineer" ?


Ok for the DS1054Z + Tek probe, I haven't saw this video yet, so they bought some stuff since the Monkey video... Or borrow them from the university lab.... ;)
Strange BTW to mix a tek probe with a Rigol DSO

For the shaded area, the area he shade is not the voltage area, but the constant current area "left" which does not mean the same thing AT ALL.
Of course he put the 100mA line on the same level as 1.6V to make sure that the newly shaded area seems really big, but in fact it's just another bullshit.

(and the snail tought experiment is just so stupid..)

Edit: The scope after the "expensive tek probe" seems to be a cheap hantek DSO not a rigol
Look at the screenshot I attached, on 1 for me I read hantek, and look on the right foot of this DSO, it is so bad that they need to use a 250g 1+mm cheap solder wire to make it stable? :D
And the setup on that poor camera is so unprofessional that.. Erk
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 10:41:29 am by Godzil »
When you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective.
-- Yokoi Gunpei
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #778 on: August 24, 2015, 10:39:58 am »
So, if the butteriser just compensates for high peak loads

And how much energy capacity does the coil and output cap in the (ultra-tiny) Batterieser circuitry have to do this? Do they mention that at all?
By inspection, the Batteriser must have bugger-all peak current handling capacity due to it's size, those pesky laws of physics and all.
What they are relying on is the Batteriser goes down the 0.6V on the cell input, and that could be an advantage in a few niche circumstances, but if they don't actually show it in practice, then, blah.

Do they mention or show the pulse response of the Batterieser?
Do they mention or show the efficiency response curve of the Battersier?
I fully expected this "be-all end-all" technical videos for "real engineers" to include at least that stuff.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 11:00:29 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #779 on: August 24, 2015, 10:45:07 am »
Ok for the DS1054Z + Tek probe, I haven't saw this video yet, so they bought some stuff since the Monkey video...
Yep. They've got him a nice new Hakko soldering station.

I hope it's enough reward for committing career suicide on video. Just imagine the his next job interview -  "Hey, it's the monkey-butt guy!!".

 

Offline jippie

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #780 on: August 24, 2015, 10:47:30 am »
b) Due to ESR, sudden spikes in current demand can cause sudden voltage drops at the battery terminals. If the voltage drops low enough during a huge spike then the device will shut down prematurely.

[...]

Does Batteriser prevent this voltage drop by drawing even more current from the battery to compensate?

I've been experimenting with a boost converter on a penlight in the past myself and it workes reasonably well for the purpose I used it for: An el cheapo LED camping light that fades over time. One of my lessons learned was that due to a current peak the converter can "latch up". Due to an output current peak the battery can be loaded so far that its voltage collapses beyond a certain point of recovery causing excessive current to be drawn. Current can be significant, heating up the cells, but total output power can in that case be very low, even too low to power the load, but enough to keep the converter running. The battery output voltage only recovers after switching off the converter (switching off the load is no longer sufficient) and reconnecting it.

I believe I did hear couple Energy vs. Voltage mess up's, but I can't be bothered to view the video again.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 10:49:54 am by jippie »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #781 on: August 24, 2015, 10:50:05 am »
I understand his "under the curve" vs. "boxed" argument (it is basically using two Y-axis, one in volts the other in ampères it should've been explained more clealy), but this is only accurate for a constant current load

Is that what he was trying to get at? All I saw was him drawing a line across at the 1.6V level then shading the area above the graph and saying "this means there's really 50% remaining".

which is in my opinion very unlikely. I can't imagine a load would draw the same current at a 1.5V battery voltage as at a 0.8V battery voltage.
The rest of the video is devoted to proving that current draw isn't constant.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 10:52:12 am by Fungus »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #782 on: August 24, 2015, 10:52:03 am »
a) Apparently you have to include the area above the battery discharge curve when you're dealing with constant current devices, not just the area below it.
(No, I don't get it either, he just states that as a fact and gives no explanation.)

Ok, someone pointed me to that bit so I watched it.
The point he's trying to make here is exactly the same as my graph in my blog post and follow-up video here:

Except that he's assuming the battery capacity is measured in only mAh, which of course no battery is. Battery capacity is measured in Wh. Did he mention this later?
But, as my graph shows (which calculates power), it's almost a linear line, so mAh and Wh are practically the same in this case. In that case as my graph shows you can simply take the capacity remaining from the X axis like he is saying (the "area" part is moot).
So once again, he's technically right, but he's not saying anything that hasn't been said before, and he's not the least bit disproving the graph in my blog post.
If he did exactly what he is saying on real data (which he didn't), then he'd get the exact same result of remaining capacity as my graph. No surprises there at all.
It's more misdirection to try and prove they are "right" and everyone else is "wrong"  ::)
FAIL.

Did they really not do any test on the Batteriser itself in a 40min video?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 10:54:48 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Godzil

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #783 on: August 24, 2015, 10:58:11 am »
Dave: After 30 minutes, no batterizer, apart if the gps setup have one on it, but no mention about that. and as they are to measure "real battery voltage and current" I doubt that their stuff is inside.

And the rigol is just there for the show but does nothing, they still use the hantek cheapo for measurement, strange...

Before I forgot, both of them seems really uneasy by doing this video, just look at their body languages, they both shake their legs, sign of big stress and being in a really uncomfortable position, especially Chris.

BTW their way to "measure" average is beyond stupidity, why don't they use the DSO measurement functionality to get the average instead of wrongly put a cursor somewhere?

And our Chris does not know how to configure his nice Rigol DS1054 to configure the channel to says probe is 10X and display mA instead of mV, but I'm maybe asking too much.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 11:04:14 am by Godzil »
When you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective.
-- Yokoi Gunpei
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #784 on: August 24, 2015, 11:05:00 am »
@Dave. No batteriser. You must watch it.

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #785 on: August 24, 2015, 11:07:55 am »
@Dave. No batteriser. You must watch it.

Must I?  :(
Not enough Ripe Tomatoes yet.
Sorry, I have an appointment at the dentist to get all my teeth extracted, and he's out of pain killer and is a former marketing droid who like to talk about synergies. That's a less painful deal by the sounds of it.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 11:09:33 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #786 on: August 24, 2015, 11:09:03 am »
But, as my graph shows (which calculates power), it's almost a linear line, so mAh and Wh are practically the same in this case. In that case as my graph shows you can simply take the capacity remaining from the X axis like he is saying (the "area" part is moot).
I just watched it again (it's at 9 minutes in).

I think I got it. The trick is to assume the current remains constant as the voltage drops.

It's not a common situation but it could happen, eg. powering a linear voltage regulator where the battery voltage never drops below the regulator's dropout voltage.

But... that's a situation where using a batteriser will make things much worse. A voltage booster will make sure the voltage regulator is producing the maximum possible amount of heat for 100% of the battery's lifetime.


Did they really not do any test on the Batteriser itself in a 40min video?
Nope.
 

Offline jippie

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #787 on: August 24, 2015, 11:12:36 am »
@Dave. No batteriser. You must watch it.

Must I?  :(
Not enough Ripe Tomatoes yet.
Sorry, I have an appointment at the dentist to get all my teeth extracted, and he's out of pain killer and is a former marketing droid who like to talk about synergies. That's a less painful deal by the sounds of it.
You are always so full of scientific proof, so ... Picture or it didn't happen  :-DD
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #788 on: August 24, 2015, 11:13:39 am »
@Dave. No batteriser. You must watch it.

Must I?  :(
Not enough Ripe Tomatoes yet.
Sorry, I have an appointment at the dentist to get all my teeth extracted, and he's out of pain killer and is a former marketing droid who like to talk about synergies. That's a less painful deal by the sounds of it.
The start is OK. He proves he actually knows about batteries.

And that kinda makes the rest of it even worse - it throws the fraudulance into sharp relief.

Oh, I lied about the start. There's a really painful part where they ask him how anybody can hold 500 patents and he says "Well, I guess it's because I'm a really really clever person!"  :wtf:
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #789 on: August 24, 2015, 11:15:28 am »

The start is OK. He proves he actually knows about batteries.


That's what confused me... most of it made sense, was correct, or agreed with what everyone else was saying... and then physics went out the window!
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #790 on: August 24, 2015, 11:15:32 am »
I think I got it. The trick is to assume the current remains constant as the voltage drops.
It's not a common situation but it could happen, eg. powering a linear voltage regulator where the battery voltage never drops below the regulator's dropout voltage.

Correct. I explained this in a recent video.

Quote
But... that's a situation where using a batteriser will make things much worse. A voltage booster will make sure the voltage regulator is producing the maximum possible amount of heat for 100% of the battery's lifetime.

Correct.

Did they really not do any test on the Batteriser itself in a 40min video?
Nope.
[/quote]

Oh dear  :palm:
Please tell me it has efficiency curves?
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #791 on: August 24, 2015, 11:16:11 am »

Please tell me it has efficiency curves?

lol
 

Offline Godzil

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #792 on: August 24, 2015, 11:18:23 am »
They zoom on the recorded singleshot so high that we only see quantisation error  :palm: (33:16)
When you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective.
-- Yokoi Gunpei
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #793 on: August 24, 2015, 11:23:16 am »
They could have just filmed two products (a Batteriser vs. non-Batteriser) and thrown it into time lapse or sped up the video. Would have been far more interesting (and accurate).

Then again, that would have simply proven Dave right, and Roohparvar et. al. wrong. I guess all they've confirmed is that the Batteriser is a scam.

(I love how Google indexes this forum too) ;-)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 11:28:51 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline Godzil

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #794 on: August 24, 2015, 11:26:06 am »
They could have just filmed two products (a Batteriser vs. non-Batteriser) and thrown it into time lapse or sped up the video. Would have been far more interesting (and accurate).
Yes that what I tell pages ago in this topic on the other one can't remember, the GPS video, or the flash light version just show a fancy setup, and directly goes to "the results are this and this" without anytimelapse or whatever.

If the are short on money, can anyone send them a SJ4000 camera? it seems to works really well for timelapse as Dave shown multiple times now
When you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective.
-- Yokoi Gunpei
 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #795 on: August 24, 2015, 11:33:18 am »
Hi,
The Battery model that is presented in the video is the same model that I presented in this thread. I translated the original model from:

S. C. Hageman, “Simple PSpice models let you simulate common battery types,”
Electronic Design News, vol. 38, pp. 117 – 129, 1993.

You can fine the model in this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731204/#msg731204


It absolute BS that the amount of energy remaining depends on whether you have a constant current or a resistive load.

I modified by model to add an energy meter. The energy is the integral of instantaneous power.







I find that the battery has a total energy of 10.2 kJ.

If look at how much energy is left when the 1.0V threshold is reached, in both cases I get 1.47 kJ

I have attached a zipfile with the model.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B BSc (Eng) Hons ACGI (Imperial College, London)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 11:45:05 am by Jay_Diddy_B »
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #796 on: August 24, 2015, 11:54:31 am »
So based on the information provided in the video (which is not worth watching by the way and has the technical content of a brick) someone somewhere is counting discarded batteries on a global scale and conducting load and voltage measurements, really show me the person and the paperwork.

Our local council recycle centre has big bins full of discarded batteries and I've never seen a fellow sitting alongside with a shit load of test gear and an open spread sheet, which begs the question should I go around and grab a few hundred and video the whole thing or like the rest of it would it be a lot of energy and effort for little gain.

And by the way the snail was getting closer to the sun.... :palm:


Muttley
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #797 on: August 24, 2015, 11:56:29 am »
@Dave. Don't you dare not to watch it. We are all together to this.  :P :P :P
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #798 on: August 24, 2015, 12:05:23 pm »
Our local council recycle centre has big bins full of discarded batteries and I've never seen a fellow sitting alongside with a shit load of test gear and an open spread sheet, which begs the question should I go around and grab a few hundred and video the whole thing or like the rest of it would it be a lot of energy and effort for little gain.

It's pointless, except to build Batteriser case, because it's based on the unknown of why the batteries were discarded.
Without that data then it is misleading to use that data as evidence for energy remaining in used batteries.
But of course Batteriser lapped up that data after it was posted here and will no doubt claim "well that's what people are throwing" out. Well, that may be true, but that habitual based throwing out for whatever reason that won't be changed with the use of the batteriser. As it has been demonstrably shown (and they admit) that most products have a 1.1V cutoff voltage or lower.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 12:07:54 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #799 on: August 24, 2015, 12:07:48 pm »
Ooops, looks like they've disabled comments on that new youtube video.

Maybe it didn't answer all our questions.
 


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