Author Topic: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815  (Read 619251 times)

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Offline D3f1ant

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #775 on: August 18, 2016, 06:50:25 am »
I have a PIC rewriting the eprom to reset the trial timers, does that still work with .17?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 07:07:15 am by D3f1ant »
 

Online K5HJ

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #776 on: August 18, 2016, 07:05:40 am »
Surprise, surprise! Apparently, the firmware update to 00.01.17.00.04 has enabled the 10Hz RBW option on my DSA815-TG! Though I didn't find this specified anywhere. Either the new firmware must have enabled this or my "messing around" with up- and downgrading several times.

Okay, I just re-checked: If I downgrade to 00.01.16, the minimum RBW is again 100Hz, after the upgrade to 00.01.17 it returns to 10Hz.

So I'm quite surprised why Rigol didn't report this in their changelog, or maybe it's unintentional, a "bug" so to speak  ;D. I love these kinds of bugs...

Now it's a hard decision, rather have the trial options or the 10Hz RBW. I guess for me the 10Hz is more valuable since I hardly used the options for anything else than playing around, while I often whished I had better frequency resolution. Lets see, if this "bug" gets eliminated in the next update...or if it's a "si(g)lent" improvement to have a better standing against the competitor 8).

Cheers,
Thomas

This is awesome. Great news. I hope Rigol doesn't decide it was an error and withdraw it.
 

Offline ted572

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #777 on: August 18, 2016, 11:56:28 am »
I revised the Howardlong 'attachments' (my copy and paste into a Word Doc.) in Reply 790 with some notes (in Red) and the current Reply # for the main post info for those of you with the newer DSA815s with Boot version 00.01.04.  I recommend contacting Howard for his comments and suggestions, because his FRAM piggybacked PIC may be your answer to 'saving/keeping' all the Options and now getting the 10 kHz RBW with FW 00.01.17.
Good luck.

Edit: Changed the word 'getting' to 'saving/keeping' in the original phrase 'answer to getting all the Options', because once they are gone they probably (?) can't be recovered by restoring the FRAM data.  This is just my guess.  I hope that I'm wrong on this though.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 02:35:46 pm by ted572 »
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #778 on: August 18, 2016, 01:52:19 pm »
@rf-loop --

initially I rearranged your setup with my SSA3021X(+) to check my signal source (first picture).
I decided to do this after I tried a Rigol DG4102 directly on the DSA815 but since the figures were 20dB worse than your measurement, I considered it may also be the generator. After that I used an LPFRS-01-10M rubidium oscillator, attenuated to 0dBm -- just to find the results on the DSA815 to be identical for all practical means. Since now the LPFRS was heated up and properly attenuated, I did all further measurements with this (second picture - yellow trace is the DG4102 as source, the purple one is the LPFRS). The two spurs just next to the carrier are at 63 and 198Hz above the 10MHz carrier. These spurs are generated by the DSA815 otherwise they wouldn't have been identically present in the spectra of both sources. They may be the frequencies of the control loops of some internal LO PLLs. So regarding this near-field performance, the DSA is about two orders of magnitude worse than the Siglent.

But things almost reverse if you look further off the carrier. Hence I extended the span to 100kHz in the next two screenshots. I kept the narrow-span trace on the screen since I changed the RBW setting to 100Hz in order to finish the measurement in this lifetime. Here's one peculiarity with the Siglent: If changing frequency and span settings, the Rigol analyzer also stretches, shifts or compresses "frozen" traces so at least the relevant section of them can be compared to active traces. The Siglent instrument just continues to display the frozen trace on the screen as it was recorded so there's no use of them for comparison after frequency or span have been altered. Room for improvement I would say. Anyway, in these two Screenshots the peculiar phase noise distribution of the Siglent analyzer once again becomes obvious: The noise is lowest approx. 3kHz off of the carrier while it increases by round about 15dB 40kHz off the carrier to gradually drop then to an exponential relaxation profile. In contrary to this, the Rigol has a phase noise profile that's more or less directly exponential without any dips close to the center frequency but which is in general more narrow than on the Siglent.

This means the Siglent is clearly better suited for measuring low modulation sidebands in the audio range than the Rigol.

The last screenshot finally shows that the noise level is completely independent of the attenuator setting. The purple & cyan traces were recorded at 10dB attenuation while the yellow trace was recorded at 0dB attenuation. One thing to notice here is that the Rigol tolerates a signal of 0dBm at its mixer input (before its starts "screaming") while the Siglent is limited to -10dBm. This means, the Rigol can tolerate stronger signals elsewhere in the spectrum while monitoring a weak signal. This doesn't affect phase noise performance of course, as it's easy to see in the picture.


@D3f1ant --

I'm almost certain that you won't have luck with the PIC circuitry to reprogram your FRAM if you install the new firmware. I guess the new firmware somehow reorganizes the usage of the FRAM, otherwise the WP mod should have worked. The (current) PIC circuitry will only re-write 8 bytes at address 0x200. If now for example there are separate timers for each option (and there's more than enough unused space for this in the FRAM), the result of reprogramming only the aforementioned eight bytes is unpredictable. Either I would revert to the WP configuration (though I didn't test if in this case, FW00.01.17 will enable the 10Hz RBW feature - but at least you can always go back to 00.01.16 to use the other options) or wait with the update until more information is available.  Maybe we'll have to analyze a new DSA that comes from the factory with the new firmware and all the trials enabled. Yet, I don't know which hobby user would buy a Rigol DSA these days when he can have the Siglent for round about the same money...


Cheers,
Thomas
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 01:56:42 pm by TurboTom »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #779 on: August 18, 2016, 03:52:44 pm »
So to summarise for 1.04 bootloader versions:

o 1.16 still works with or without any FRAM fiddling;
o 1.17 ignores any previously trial time, and will also erase any trial time if the FRAM isn't write protected;
o If the FRAM is write protected, you can downgrade the firmware back to 1.16 and the trials reappear.

Is this a fair representation?
 

Offline ted572

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #780 on: August 18, 2016, 04:20:58 pm »
So to summarise for 1.04 bootloader versions:
  o 1.16 still works with or without any FRAM fiddling;
  o 1.17 ignores any previously trial time, and will also erase any trial time if the FRAM isn't write protected;
  o If the FRAM is write protected, you can downgrade the firmware back to 1.16 and the trials reappear.

Hello Howardlong:
What happens with FW 00.01.17 and Boot version 00.01.04, if the FRAM is write protected with your PIC piggyback configuration?  Will the options be available and be retained?  In any case I assume that the 10 kHz RBW will be available now.
Thank you, Ted
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #781 on: August 18, 2016, 05:21:15 pm »
@ TurboTom

Did you use noise Marker in Rigol.
Have you noted this.
If I look Rigol images with my retired eyes and marker measured numbers (dBm/Hz) it looks like it do plain RBW normalization. (10 x log(RBWa/RBWb)) In this case RBWb is 1Hz.
Normalization to noise need do for NBW1Hz not to gaussian like RBW. Not big deal but around 2.5dB "error".  (too low measured values)
But also analyzing with eyes where exatly is marker level in image is not perfect - but it looks like this.
Siglent do it right.

Let's  hope   later Siglent add feature where user can select phase noise optimization  for  near carrier or "usual" phase noise what may rise near carrier pn lvl but lower far carrier pn level  as they like follow Agilent and there is this selection. (there in Agilent AN can see what I mean)
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I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #782 on: August 18, 2016, 08:53:01 pm »
So to summarise for 1.04 bootloader versions:
  o 1.16 still works with or without any FRAM fiddling;
  o 1.17 ignores any previously trial time, and will also erase any trial time if the FRAM isn't write protected;
  o If the FRAM is write protected, you can downgrade the firmware back to 1.16 and the trials reappear.

Hello Howardlong:
What happens with FW 00.01.17 and Boot version 00.01.04, if the FRAM is write protected with your PIC piggyback configuration?  Will the options be available and be retained?  In any case I assume that the 10 kHz RBW will be available now.
Thank you, Ted

I haven't tried yet, before looking I wanted to understand the current known status, can you confirm my precis is reasonable, or have I misunderstood anything?
 

Offline ted572

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #783 on: August 18, 2016, 09:54:04 pm »
I haven't tried yet, before looking I wanted to understand the current known status, can you confirm my precis is reasonable, or have I misunderstood anything?
Howardlong:
Yes, this is what has been reported, and you are correct for the case where U1105 just has pin 7 and 8 soldered together.
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #784 on: August 18, 2016, 11:51:32 pm »
@rf-loop --

as you suggested, I selected "Noise Marker" from the Marker Functions menu. I'm not sure if in the DSA815 this is processed correctly or not. Still got so much to learn...and this will probably never change  ;)

@all who may be interested in this --

I just did some more experimenting: I downgraded my DSA to 00.01.16 and flashed my image of the FRAM that I took before the initial update to 00.01.17 - sure enough the 34 odd hours of trial time reappeared. After that I updated again to 00.01.17 and the trial time was deleted. Then, while already the new firmware was installed, I re-flashed the old FRAM image and started the analyzer -- well, "goneski" Dave would tell (or "ne rabotayet" as the Russians may say) -- the analyzer wouldn't behave differently than directly after the F/W update. This leads me to the assumption that the PIC modification also won't work after the F/W update. What I did and what I will provide here for those who may have a better understanding of the software details than I do, is taking records of the FRAM contents before (trial time valid) and after the update to F/W 00.01.17 (trial time deleted). It was quite an ugly setup to read/write the FRAM but fortunately the epic mess on my desk around the setup isn't shown in the photo  ;D

Cheers,
Thomas
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 12:53:15 am by TurboTom »
 

Offline CustomEngineerer

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #785 on: August 19, 2016, 12:06:19 am »
Rigol has been known to add unannounced new features in firmware updates before, so I would think this would be an intentional feature to help compete with the newer Siglents. You would think they would want to announce it when adding new useful features but for whatever reason they usually don't. No idea why.
 

Offline danny_isr

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #786 on: August 19, 2016, 01:44:58 am »
So to sum this up,
If i install the new firmware i get better resolution but losing the ability to extend the "trail options" by soldering the two pins.
So if i go ahead with the new update, can i re-install/roll back the old firmware if desire ?

my 815 is still in the trial period, and i haven't open the case.

thanks
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #787 on: August 19, 2016, 09:53:05 am »
@danny_isr --

if you install firmware 00.01.17 on a machine with older firmware and still remaining trial time, this trial time will be lost. The FRAM chip contents will be extensively modified and reverting back to the previous firmware will not bring you back your trial time unless you can also restore the FRAM contents - and as far as I know, that's not possible without opening the case and some "special" equipment.

Cheers,
Thomas

 

Offline dav

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #788 on: August 19, 2016, 09:59:54 am »
@TurboTom:
I'm just curious to know what is the name of that strange blue adaptor attached on the FRAM.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #789 on: August 19, 2016, 10:07:26 am »
@danny_isr --

if you install firmware 00.01.17 on a machine with older firmware and still remaining trial time, this trial time will be lost. The FRAM chip contents will be extensively modified

Do we know that or is that a supposition from the behaviour?
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #790 on: August 19, 2016, 11:21:08 am »
@dav --
I don't tknow the exact "designation" of this adapter, it's quite old. I would call it an "SO-Package Test Clip". And look what a Google search yields: https://www.google.de/#q=so+package+test+clip

@howardlong --

Yes we know that. Please see the attached file comparison between my "frozen" FRAM contents that kept the options valid for me up to F/W 00.01.16 and the contents after the WP of the FRAM chip has been disabled and the DSA had been updated to F/W 00.01.17. I even tried just modifying the eight bytes that supposedly count the power-on hours of the machine in the new FRAM file with the old values (just as your clever PIC mod would do) without any success.

I guess (but I'm not sure) the options are not coded in FRAM but somewhere in the program flash. The FRAM just holds parameters that are changed frequently. If you look through the dump, there are many dword integer numbers (like 750M, 1.5G, 150M, 2M, 3M...) that appear to configure center frequency, span, BW and whatsoever. Even the calibration constants don't seem to be stored in FRAM, they are apparently contained in program flash. Hence it's probably not very useful to further poke around in the FRAM, in order to "liberate" the options the program code will have to be analyzed -- and I'm not the right one for this job -- unfortunately  :-\

Cheers,
Thomas
 
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #791 on: August 19, 2016, 03:15:40 pm »
Good info.

It may also be that trials are completely disabled in 1.17.
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #792 on: August 25, 2016, 09:25:32 am »
So the 10Hz RBW to be found first with F/W 00.01.17 is an official feature now and no "bug". Good to know that it will stay like this even with future F/W updates. Now we only need to figure out how to "liberate" the options or re-enable the trial period on the machines supplied with the newer bootloader...  8)
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #793 on: August 25, 2016, 12:34:59 pm »
I guess we need to have evidence that 1.17 even supports trial versions at all.

I'm pretty time-poor at the moment so I can't see me having a look at this any time soon.
 

Offline ted572

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #794 on: August 28, 2016, 11:08:58 pm »
Yesterday I found a Rigol DSA800 Application Note that looked very interesting.  This is about saving a general prefix name for DSA800 screen-shots saved on a USB Flash Drive that is very easy to edit for saving.  Of course you have to keep some notes to remember what each PDF file covers.  Even so, I found this as a big improvement and convenience for me.  And of course once I get it on my computer it is easy to edit the file name to be fully descriptive.

The original Rigol App. Note is attached below (DSA800 file prefix save.pdf), although I found it of little value.  But, at least I was able to figure out it's intent, which I put in a file named 'How to Easily Name and Store DSA815 Screen-Shot Files .pdf'.

I hope some of you also find this information useful.
 

Offline 9a4wy

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #795 on: August 29, 2016, 07:58:47 am »
There is new Firmware available for the DSA815:  DSA815 Firmware_00.01.17.00.04
To get this you can go to > http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3   Then go to > Spectrum Analyzer.   Then Download > DSA815 Firmware_00.01.17.00.04

V00.01.17    2016-08-15
-----Added the SSC fuction
-----Cleared the LAN communication trouble
-----Resolve the front panel switch control problem

Yes, it is safe to install, and all options are still there for all the older DSA815's with Boot loader 00.01.02 and .03.  Enjoy . . .   See my previous post (Reply #784) to see the full System and Firmware Information after doing the FW upgrade.

Edit: I Do Not have the newer version DSA815 that TurboTom (Thomas) describes in his post below (Reply #786). If you have a Newer DSA815 with Boot loader version 00.01.04 then be sure to at least read post's (Reply #) 786, 787, and 790 ( * ->   may very well be a potential fix for the newer DSA815s).

FYI - All older DSA815's/TG (with Boot loader 00.01.02, 00.01.04) are all working fine as is with this Firmware upgrade.  

            Ted572

In installing instruction for FW 01.17 says that it supports only boot ver.  00.01.04 and later....
So it's safe to install this FW on machines with old bootloader?
 

Offline ted572

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #796 on: August 29, 2016, 12:06:09 pm »
Re. In installing instruction for FW 01.17 says . . . .

Don't worry about the installation instructions you quoted.  This is for all hardware, software, and firmware versions of the DSA815.  Although those that have a newer DSA815 with Boot loader 00.01.04 may want to hold off on this firmware upgrade(?), due to loosing the options if their U1105 has pins 7 and 8 soldered together to retain the options.  Although they will get the 10 kHz RBW as a great trade-off.  If you decide later that you want an option you always purchase it.  To understand the 10 kHz RBW issue with newer units, simply read a few posts back on this page to get the flavor of it.

Edit: If anyone is in doubt about the viability of using this firmware on older DSA815's, contact Rigol Technical Support and ask them.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 01:19:39 pm by ted572 »
 

Offline Gertjan

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #797 on: August 29, 2016, 01:51:57 pm »
Hi,

Can anybody supply me with DSA815 firmware 01.16?

I have a DSA815 with the newer boot loader 01.04, and would like to retain my trial options.
But of course now only the latest FW 01.17 is available from the official download sites...

Please mail me the firmware (e-mail is in my profile), or just post it here on the forum…

Thanks & regards, Gertjan.
 

Offline Gertjan

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #798 on: August 29, 2016, 05:28:56 pm »
Hi Ted572,

Firmware 00.01.16.00.03 received, and installed.
SA is working fine with 01.16, including the trial options. Thanks!!  :-+

Now I have the time to decide if I want to keep my DSA815 like this (with options, but no future updates), or upgrade for the 10Hz RBW  now, and future bug fixes  :)

regards, Gertjan.
 

Offline ermeneuta

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #799 on: August 29, 2016, 05:48:07 pm »
Weird question... has anybody tried to flash the DSA815-TG with the new firmware for the DSA832-TG ?
Maybe the two hardware are equal, just the firmware determines the maximum frequency range... just hoping...

Alberto, with a just bought DSA815-TG,  see screen capture
 


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