The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices

[CatalinaWOW]

Sorry about butting in from the outside, but I see two problems with this.  (Also note that I haven't read the actual regulations so my second issue may be moot.

1.  It seems that this is really directed at Apple.  I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous.  Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium?  If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.

2.  USB-C is a great solution for a variety of devices.  I use it and like it.  But it seems marginal for laptops in general and very questionable for portable workstations and other high end devices.  Rather than defining in terms of portable devices a definition specifying all devices with charging requirements less than X would be a better solution.  I also can't see USB-C for hearing aids and other tiny devices.  So it seems a volume range should also be part of the law.

[Monkeh]

1.  It seems that this is really directed at Apple.  I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous.  Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium?  If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.

Apple is the largest single offender but not the only one, and their country of origin has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[james_s]

Customers may not care what charging port is used on the device, but part of the reason is reduction of e-waste, which is something governments have to think about and have better perspective on. No individual would care, just like no individual cares about use of single-use plastics.

But how is this going to reduce e-waste? The chargers are *already* standardized, the market settled on USB years ago, cables are readily available to go between USB-C or Lightning to USB-A. At the very most optimistic level it's going to save somebody buying a cable, and those are essentially consumable anyway. Worst case it's going to stifle things by forcing antiquated USB-C after something much better has been developed, or forcing it onto devices where it is not suitable. The end result will be more expensive hardware and fewer choices, and a lack of flexibility since a specific hardware standard is now mandated by law.

As for why those of us not in the EU care, it's because quite simply the EU is big enough that what they mandate gets foisted onto the rest of the world as well. If laptops all have to switch to USB charging to satisfy EU laws then guess what, all laptops available in the rest of the world will do the same, if the manufacture wants to sell the same basic model in the EU.

[james_s]

I'll assume it has something to do with early phones that used a variety of barrel plugs. If so, I'm not ready to give law makers any credit for increasing convenience in my life (which is all that this law is about; simple convenience.) I'm certain that makers of smart phones would have included USB ports for communication purposes anyway. And, I'm just as certain that they would have used those ports for charging. No laws required. (For the record, I am not against all laws, just pointless ones that do more harm than good.)

This shows your age very starkly. Mobile phones traditionally had obscure brand (or model) specific connectors for power and serial (or USB) so that you had to buy the accessories from them and only them. In the bad old good old dark days, you couldnt even charge over USB and as the power adapter had a captive cable it was mutually exclusive: charge or transfer data.

That doesn't say anything about his age, I remember well the days when mobile phones had proprietary connectors, but they standardized without any government intervention at all. They did it because it made sense, USB became ubiquitous enough that it was no longer sensible in most cases to use custom connectors. These days Apple is the exception, however even they include a cable that terminates with a standard USB plug so the issue is moot.

[Someone]

I'll assume it has something to do with early phones that used a variety of barrel plugs. If so, I'm not ready to give law makers any credit for increasing convenience in my life (which is all that this law is about; simple convenience.) I'm certain that makers of smart phones would have included USB ports for communication purposes anyway. And, I'm just as certain that they would have used those ports for charging. No laws required. (For the record, I am not against all laws, just pointless ones that do more harm than good.)

This shows your age very starkly. Mobile phones traditionally had obscure brand (or model) specific connectors for power and serial (or USB) so that you had to buy the accessories from them and only them. In the bad old good old dark days, you couldnt even charge over USB and as the power adapter had a captive cable it was mutually exclusive: charge or transfer data.

That doesn't say anything about his age, I remember well the days when mobile phones had proprietary connectors, but they standardized without any government intervention at all. They did it because it made sense, USB became ubiquitous enough that it was no longer sensible in most cases to use custom connectors. These days Apple is the exception, however even they include a cable that terminates with a standard USB plug so the issue is moot.

USB was widespread well before smartphones used the standard connectors directly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_Pop-Port
one easily documented example persisted until 2007, which links to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FastPort
continuing to 2010

While USB was in use since 1996 and was ubiquitous in the early 2000's as Microsoft had USB only mice from 2001 onward?

[eti]

"Enforcing" 

Riiiiighty ho then. They wish. Lighting connector design is VASTLY superior in terms of robustness and mechanical endurance than the crappy USB-C folded sheet metal junk. Just because one system has been adopted as "the standard" for 99% of companies, doesn't make it better. MacDonalds, as yummy as it is, may be VASTLY popular, but that doesn't make it a "better" product.


Apple *WILL* avoid USB-C on iPhone - you can print my bold statements out, take them to the bookies and place a wager on them, as you'll see, it simply won't EVER happen. Apple are far too advanced, too intelligent and long-sighted as compared to "the rest of em" - as is seen by their continual ascent of success, and designs that the ID world use as reference, and talking points. No one ever made documentaries about, nor marvelled at the design prowess of random, junky Android devices nor Microsoft "Surface" laptops. They ALL chase Apple, and try SO excruciatingly hard to NOT appear to... it's laughable.

It's easier to admit defeat and admire the winner, instead of being all sour grapes over it. Apple won, for the foreseeable, any sane, truly informed, seasoned Apple journalist over 40 will tell you that much. Accept it, swallow it, sit down and enjoy, because despite all human errors that they also make (of course), they are STILL the best of the best.

[james_s]

one easily documented example persisted until 2007, which links to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FastPort
continuing to 2010

While USB was in use since 1996 and was ubiquitous in the early 2000's as Microsoft had USB only mice from 2001 onward?

What is your point? USB became the defacto standard for smartphones without any government intervention at all. Apple phones have always come with a cable that terminates with a USB plug too, so even though it isn't present on the phone it's a non-issue, they just need a cable and the cables are cheap, with aftermarket ones readily available.

[Halcyon]

1.  It seems that this is really directed at Apple.  I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous.  Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium?  If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.

It's only "directed" at Apple because they are the odd ones out and made the decision to be that way. They have a track record of changing their power adapters with new revisions of their products (namely their laptops), when other manufacturers mostly stuck with the same connectors (Dell and Lenovo for example). I don't understand why Apple needs 18 different types of AC adapters between the MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro products. For those wondering:

2006-2009 15"/17" MacBook Pro - 85W adapter with T-style MagSafe connector
2006-2009 MacBook - 60W adapter with T-style MagSafe connector
2009 13" MacBook Pro - 60W adapter with T-style connector
2008-2011 MacBook Air - 45W adapter with L-style MagSafe connector
2009-2010 MacBook - 60W adapter with L-style MagSafe connector
2010-2012 13" MacBook Pro - 60W adapter with L-style MagSafe connector
2010-2012 15"/17" MacBook Pro  85W adapter with L-style MagSafe connector
2012-2015 13" MacBook Pro - 60W adapter with MagSafe2 connector
2012-2015 15" MacBook Pro - 85W adapter with MagSafe2 connector
2012-2017 MacBook Air - 45W MagSafe with MagSafe2 connector
2015 MacBook - 29/30W USB-C adapter with USB-C cable
2016 13" MacBook Pro - 61W USB-C adapter with USB-C cable
2016 15" MacBok Pro - 87W USB-C adapter with USB-C cable
2018+ MacBook Air - 30W USB-C adapter with USB-C cable
2019 16" MacBook Pro - 96W USB-C adapter with USB-C cable
2021 14" MacBook Pro - 67W USB-C adapter with MagSafe3 cable
2021 16" MacBook Pro - 96W USB-C adapter with MagSafe3 cable
2021 16" MacBook Pro - 140W USB-C adapter with MagSafe3 cable

[eti]

1.  It seems that this is really directed at Apple.  I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous.  Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium?  If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.

It's only "directed" at Apple because they are the odd ones out and made the decision to be that way. They have a track record of changing their power adapters with new revisions of their products (namely their laptops), when other manufacturers mostly stuck with the same connectors (Dell and Lenovo for example). I don't understand why Apple needs 19 different types of AC adapters between the MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro products.

One is not required to "understand why", one is given the choice to buy Apple, use and enjoy, accepting these things, or not to. Free will is a marvel.

[Ed.Kloonk]

1.  It seems that this is really directed at Apple.  I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous.  Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium?  If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.

It's only "directed" at Apple because they are the odd ones out and made the decision to be that way. They have a track record of changing their power adapters with new revisions of their products (namely their laptops), when other manufacturers mostly stuck with the same connectors (Dell and Lenovo for example). I don't understand why Apple needs 19 different types of AC adapters between the MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro products.

One is not required to "understand why", one is given the choice to buy Apple, use and enjoy, accepting these things, or not to. Free will is a marvel.

If all of this is meant to 'stick it' to Apple, then my question is why?

If an Apple phone owner can't charge their own phone, who gives a shit?

[eti]

1.  It seems that this is really directed at Apple.  I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous.  Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium?  If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.

It's only "directed" at Apple because they are the odd ones out and made the decision to be that way. They have a track record of changing their power adapters with new revisions of their products (namely their laptops), when other manufacturers mostly stuck with the same connectors (Dell and Lenovo for example). I don't understand why Apple needs 19 different types of AC adapters between the MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro products.

One is not required to "understand why", one is given the choice to buy Apple, use and enjoy, accepting these things, or not to. Free will is a marvel.

If all of this is meant to 'stick it' to Apple, then my question is why?

If an Apple phone owner can't charge their own phone, who gives a shit?

please expand, your point is rather unclear thx

[Someone]

I'll assume it has something to do with early phones that used a variety of barrel plugs. If so, I'm not ready to give law makers any credit for increasing convenience in my life (which is all that this law is about; simple convenience.) I'm certain that makers of smart phones would have included USB ports for communication purposes anyway. And, I'm just as certain that they would have used those ports for charging. No laws required. (For the record, I am not against all laws, just pointless ones that do more harm than good.)

This shows your age very starkly. Mobile phones traditionally had obscure brand (or model) specific connectors for power and serial (or USB) so that you had to buy the accessories from them and only them. In the bad old good old dark days, you couldnt even charge over USB and as the power adapter had a captive cable it was mutually exclusive: charge or transfer data.

That doesn't say anything about his age, I remember well the days when mobile phones had proprietary connectors, but they standardized without any government intervention at all. They did it because it made sense, USB became ubiquitous enough that it was no longer sensible in most cases to use custom connectors. These days Apple is the exception, however even they include a cable that terminates with a standard USB plug so the issue is moot.

USB was widespread well before smartphones used the standard connectors directly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_Pop-Port
one easily documented example persisted until 2007, which links to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FastPort
continuing to 2010

While USB was in use since 1996 and was ubiquitous in the early 2000's as Microsoft had USB only mice from 2001 onward?

What is your point? USB became the defacto standard for smartphones without any government intervention at all. Apple phones have always come with a cable that terminates with a USB plug too, so even though it isn't present on the phone it's a non-issue, they just need a cable and the cables are cheap, with aftermarket ones readily available.

If someone cannot remember the dominat (smart) phones of the 2005 era (17 years ago), they are either very young or lived in an undeveloped area upto then, likely the poster is young and doesn't know the history of the market.

You made out like (smart)phones had USB all along, they really didnt. USB was in widespread consumer use and the phone manufacturers persisted with their proprietary connectors (even making new ones as linked above). Exactly what you and that poster say wouldn't/didn't happen. I'm not picking out some obscure minority brand here, those were the dominant players in the market and they went for profit ahead of standardization/convenience. They weren't all using 5V or USB power for charging which made 3rd party cables a minefield, that changed only with standardization to USB connectors on the phones.

[eugene]

I think the example of Apple is interesting. There's no question that there are a lot of "Apple or Nothing" people. (Not judging, just saying...) I wonder if Apple were to offer iPhones with USB C as an option, how many users would happily switch?

[Someone]

1.  It seems that this is really directed at Apple.  I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous.  Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium?  If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.

It's only "directed" at Apple because they are the odd ones out and made the decision to be that way. They have a track record of changing their power adapters with new revisions of their products (namely their laptops), when other manufacturers mostly stuck with the same connectors (Dell and Lenovo for example). I don't understand why Apple needs 18 different types of AC adapters between the MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro products. For those wondering:

[MagSafe, interchangeable straight or right angle plug
MagSafe 2
USB-C
MagSafe3]

edited for clarity, thats only 4 different connectors in the mix. Noting further the Magsafe 3 is a cable to USB-C at the other end so you can continue to use older/other USB-C power bricks.... and all the magsafe 4 laptops will also power over USB-C so its optional.

Dell and HP have stuck with their connectors, but the bricks came in even more numerous variations. Desperate comparison talking about connectors then listing power variants.

USB-C as a mandatory inclusions as a (but not necessarily the only) charge format is a good way forward and the connector will likely be extended beyond thunderbolt 4 speeds (some minor mechanical changes were needed for the higher power delivery).

[Ed.Kloonk]

your point is rather unclear

Wouldn't be the first time.   


Wasn't making a point rather posing a line of questioning. If an Apple user cannot charge a phone with a USB-C (directly), why does the EU care?

If you were to press me for making a point, this is it. I think this is just a pissing match between the EU and (this week) Apple. And everyone knows it.

[Someone]

I think the example of Apple is interesting. There's no question that there are a lot of "Apple or Nothing" people. (Not judging, just saying...) I wonder if Apple were to offer iPhones with USB C as an option, how many users would happily switch?

In which direction?
Away from Apple because they love the lighting connector so much? (probably not many)
Toward Apple because they refuse to use a USB-C/A to lightning cable? (probably more, but still not many)

The charging cable it a non issue for the vast majority, especially when USB-C is still new/different so few people have them in excess or already in use across the majority of their devices.

[Ed.Kloonk]

The charging cable it a non issue for the vast majority, especially when USB-C is still new/different so few people have them in excess or already in use across the majority of their devices.

This is the thing. I've yet to encounter anyone in the wild that has claimed that USB-C is the be all and end all. It's only the arsehats on the internet.

[Someone]

The charging cable it a non issue for the vast majority, especially when USB-C is still new/different so few people have them in excess or already in use across the majority of their devices.

This is the thing. I've yet to encounter anyone in the wild that has claimed that USB-C is the be all and end all. It's only the arsehats on the internet.

It is possible to be polite about it having used USB-C and thunderbolt from the "start" I see lots of things to like.

With the stabilization of the power delivery standard and its wide supply span USB-C is suited to many of the jobs that previously needed a proprietary supply and/or connector. The key is that uptake has increased to the point that its now a commodity product and USB-C power adapters are cheap enough to be designed in on new products. We're seeing all sorts of "dumb" devices starting to use USB-C as their power source with zero comms, the change has already arrived.

I'd love to see a worldwide de-facto power standard, and some EU legislation requiring it on portable electronics might be all thats needed to get there. That would be a motivation for many people to pick products that will plug into those sources/supplies. But I'm not too bothered if they don't, or what connector is on specific product blah. If the EU mandated USB-C power adapters, allowing arbitrary cable between the supply and the device that would be fine from my point of view too. It would be nice to have at least one part of the chain standardized.

Worst case? EU mandates USB-C on the device, but 5V only adapters without PD negotiation continue to be the norm.

[Halcyon]

I think the example of Apple is interesting. There's no question that there are a lot of "Apple or Nothing" people. (Not judging, just saying...) I wonder if Apple were to offer iPhones with USB C as an option, how many users would happily switch?

In which direction?
Away from Apple because they love the lighting connector so much? (probably not many)
Toward Apple because they refuse to use a USB-C/A to lightning cable? (probably more, but still not many)

The charging cable it a non issue for the vast majority, especially when USB-C is still new/different so few people have them in excess or already in use across the majority of their devices.

Would it really matter so much for end-users? I think it would be a selling point to be honest. No longer do Apple users need to hunt around or carry their own proprietary charging cable to charge their phones. Even in Australia where there is a roughly 50/50 split between Apple and Android users, USB-C cables are far more common.

[Stray Electron]

I remember well the days when mobile phones had proprietary connectors, but they standardized without any government intervention at all.

  All of the cell phones may have somewhat standardized on USB (Apple certainly hasn't!) but many other devices such as GPS receivers certainly haven't.  Every GPS that I've owned has used a proprietary charging cable. The Garmins don't even use the same (Garmin proprietary) cable for their different models.

  I'm sure that the members of this forum can come up with a LONG list of rechargeable devices that use proprietary connectors and haven't even begun to standardize on USB-C or anything else.  Flashlights (aka torches) come to mind.

[Someone]

I think the example of Apple is interesting. There's no question that there are a lot of "Apple or Nothing" people. (Not judging, just saying...) I wonder if Apple were to offer iPhones with USB C as an option, how many users would happily switch?

In which direction?
Away from Apple because they love the lighting connector so much? (probably not many)
Toward Apple because they refuse to use a USB-C/A to lightning cable? (probably more, but still not many)

The charging cable it a non issue for the vast majority, especially when USB-C is still new/different so few people have them in excess or already in use across the majority of their devices.

Would it really matter so much for end-users? I think it would be a selling point to be honest. No longer do Apple users need to hunt around or carry their own proprietary charging cable to charge their phones. Even in Australia where there is a roughly 50/50 split between Apple and Android users, USB-C cables are far more common.

Having looked around (this is more than just phones) micro USB is still here in volume, even phones. The number of users who consider what the connector is on their phone is small, they just accept it at the moment and get on with life rather than compromising on fashion/price/platform/other more important factor. If it was important then it would be showing up as a filter in parametric searches

Look at the carriers, they dont even list power plug as a specification. Walk into one of their stores, its not completely USB-C and Apple, there is still micro USB still being sold new.

[Ed.Kloonk]

The charging cable it a non issue for the vast majority, especially when USB-C is still new/different so few people have them in excess or already in use across the majority of their devices.

This is the thing. I've yet to encounter anyone in the wild that has claimed that USB-C is the be all and end all. It's only the arsehats on the internet.

It is possible to be polite about it having used USB-C and thunderbolt from the "start" I see lots of things to like.

I'm mostly referring to the tech-industry leg-humping youtubers. They get oodles of free new stuff and then shit-can the audience still stuck with legacy stuff. Looking at you, Linus.

With the stabilization of the power delivery standard and its wide supply span USB-C is suited to many of the jobs that previously needed a proprietary supply and/or connector. The key is that uptake has increased to the point that its now a commodity product and USB-C power adapters are cheap enough to be designed in on new products. We're seeing all sorts of "dumb" devices starting to use USB-C as their power source with zero comms, the change has already arrived.

I'd love to see a worldwide de-facto power standard, and some EU legislation requiring it on portable electronics might be all thats needed to get there. That would be a motivation for many people to pick products that will plug into those sources/supplies. But I'm not too bothered if they don't, or what connector is on specific product blah. If the EU mandated USB-C power adapters, allowing arbitrary cable between the supply and the device that would be fine from my point of view too. It would be nice to have at least one part of the chain standardized.

Worst case? EU mandates USB-C on the device, but 5V only adapters without PD negotiation continue to be the norm.

I get your point. All of it can be promising. But at the end of the day, the delivery has been all over the map. Changing their minds with the terminology too much. Nobody knows what they want or what they are buying.

If the EU really wanted to troll everybody (as I suspect they do), they should have chosen the latest lightning connector. Just imagine.   

[Berni]

If the EU really wanted to troll everybody (as I suspect they do), they should have chosen the latest lightning connector. Just imagine.   

Even if Lightning was the more widespread connector USB-C would have been a better choice due to having better capabilities.

Lightning can only do USB 2.0 480Mbit since it doesn't even have enough pins for USB 3.0. They could have designed it for it since the Lightning connector came out in 2012 while USB 3.0 came out in 2008. But they chose not to. So it essentially has the same capabilities of a micoUSB connector with the addition of being reversible and proprietary under a licensing fee. It also can't deliver as much power as USB-C

This went so far that the Lightning to HDMI dongles (used to connect your tablet to a monitor or projector) actually stream compressed video over USB 2.0 to a iPhone CPU inside the dongle that decompresses the video and sends it out of the video connector. You could see compression artifacts in the resulting video.

This is likely the reason that Apples tablets have already dumped Lightning and went to USB-C

[tooki]

What are you even talking about? The NEMA-15 receptacle is absolutely ubiquitous, you will find them everywhere throughout North America. There is nothing prohibiting using something else but absolutely nobody does because all portable appliances and lamps and stuff come with NEMA-15 plugs.

I’m sure the electrical code does require the use of NEMA receptacles and plugs. I doubt there’s any first world country whose electrical code does not mandate the use of specific types of outlets.

[tooki]

If the EU really wanted to troll everybody (as I suspect they do), they should have chosen the latest lightning connector. Just imagine.   

Even if Lightning was the more widespread connector USB-C would have been a better choice due to having better capabilities.

Lightning can only do USB 2.0 480Mbit since it doesn't even have enough pins for USB 3.0. They could have designed it for it since the Lightning connector came out in 2012 while USB 3.0 came out in 2008. But they chose not to. So it essentially has the same capabilities of a micoUSB connector with the addition of being reversible and proprietary under a licensing fee. It also can't deliver as much power as USB-C

This went so far that the Lightning to HDMI dongles (used to connect your tablet to a monitor or projector) actually stream compressed video over USB 2.0 to a iPhone CPU inside the dongle that decompresses the video and sends it out of the video connector. You could see compression artifacts in the resulting video.

This is likely the reason that Apples tablets have already dumped Lightning and went to USB-C

Exactly. Lightning was a great design for the time it was released — nothing that existed at the time was even close to suitable (in the totality of both electrical and mechanical design). USB-C is a great successor to Lightning (and that’s no surprise, given that Apple was closely involved in its design).

The fact that the iPads have switched to USB-C also means the iOS software stack is already completely set up (and battle tested) for USB-C.

The only downside for the iPhone is that a USB-C socket is a bit bigger than a Lightning socket.