EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car

[james_s]

Just from talking to people I think it's not an insignificant psychological hangup for people considering buying EVs. Whenever I discuss this with folks, it almost always comes up, if not just writing it off because charging will be a struggle, they may have considered possible solutions to this, but it always comes back to 'will this be sustainable for me long-term'. Nobody *wants* to replace a car that they like and enjoy just because they can no longer fuel it conveniently. You're never going to have that problem with an ICE or hybrid in the near future. Personally I absolutely *loathe* the process of buying and selling vehicles. It is painful on both ends, used or new, and when I buy a car I expect it to last me 10 years or more. There's a bit of a mental block to get over for people who have traditionally owned ICEs, and this is just one factor of many that goes into it. Fundamentally I think it is down to a lack of feeling of control over their freedom, if they can't control the charging. It's well and good to say 'well if your employer's parking lot decides the EVSE isn't profitable and rip it out, you can just buy a new car or choose to leave it parked for a few hours at a chargepoint once in a while! NBD!', but I don't think that really does anything to convince people to buy it anyway.

It's clearly a real psychological thing, but it isn't rational. People buy and sell cars all the time, virtually everyone I know has had multiple cars in the time I've had the same one. Circumstances change, maybe not availability of fuel but people have kids, kids grow up and move out, they change jobs, buy or sell a travel trailer, boat or other thing and either need something bigger to tow it or no longer have a reason to be commuting in some huge thing. Gas prices rise and smaller cars become popular, they fall and massive SUVs are everywhere. Seeing this constant churn I just can't buy that most people have a big hangup about changing cars, they do it all the time, for reasons far more trivial than not being able to get fuel. it's just another irrational way of convincing themselves that something different than what they're used to won't work for them.

Some people DO avoid it, I mean I drove the same $500 car for 17 years and it was still in nice shape when it got totaled but I'm an edge case. I have multiple friends who went through at least 4 different cars in the same period I had that one, most weren't even due to a pressing need, just because they wanted something different.

[EEVblog]

Personally I absolutely *loathe* the process of buying and selling vehicles. It is painful on both ends, used or new, and when I buy a car I expect it to last me 10 years or more.

This is why I jumped at the chance of trading in my Corolla for my new IONIQ when they gave me a good price for it.
I maybe could have gotten a bit more by selling it myself, but it would have been incredibly painful and time consuming, it would have cost me a lot more in time and effort than I could have potentially gotten in return.

[EEVblog]

Batteries don't make sense in that application, just mount a diesel genset in the back of a van. The idea is emergency use to get somebody to a proper charging station, and I doubt that charging a battery from utility power and transporting it somewhere to dump some of the charge into another battery is going to be greatly more efficient than just running a generator on site to charge the end user's battery.

Also, anyone can add their house or business to PlugShare or some other EV charging app and sell power for those who are desperate.
I can imagine this being a niche service too for some smart businesses that want to entice people in.

[SilverSolder]

Batteries don't make sense in that application, just mount a diesel genset in the back of a van. The idea is emergency use to get somebody to a proper charging station, and I doubt that charging a battery from utility power and transporting it somewhere to dump some of the charge into another battery is going to be greatly more efficient than just running a generator on site to charge the end user's battery.

Also, anyone can add their house or business to PlugShare or some other EV charging app and sell power for those who are desperate.
I can imagine this being a niche service too for some smart businesses that want to entice people in.

This would be a no-brainer for a petrol station owner - they often have a couple of parking spaces they could use for this.  It is a kind of natural extension of their "energy business" too.

[SilverSolder]

As for the circumstances in the other post, circumstances change. Buying a car is not quite the major life commitment of something like buying a house. If your circumstances change you can sell the car and buy something more suitable. It's rarely financially advantageous to replace cars frequently but it doesn't have to be a major financial hit either. The key is to buy a car of similar age to the one you are replacing, the greatest depreciation hit is usually in the moment you drive it off the lot and it becomes a used car, followed by the first year or two of ownership. If you keep upgrading to new cars within the rapid depreciation period then you keep paying that hit over and over but if you sell a 5 year old car and buy a different 5 year old car for example it can be pretty much a wash.

Just from talking to people I think it's not an insignificant psychological hangup for people considering buying EVs. Whenever I discuss this with folks, it almost always comes up, if not just writing it off because charging will be a struggle, they may have considered possible solutions to this, but it always comes back to 'will this be sustainable for me long-term'. Nobody *wants* to replace a car that they like and enjoy just because they can no longer fuel it conveniently. You're never going to have that problem with an ICE or hybrid in the near future. Personally I absolutely *loathe* the process of buying and selling vehicles. It is painful on both ends, used or new, and when I buy a car I expect it to last me 10 years or more. There's a bit of a mental block to get over for people who have traditionally owned ICEs, and this is just one factor of many that goes into it. Fundamentally I think it is down to a lack of feeling of control over their freedom, if they can't control the charging. It's well and good to say 'well if your employer's parking lot decides the EVSE isn't profitable and rip it out, you can just buy a new car or choose to leave it parked for a few hours at a chargepoint once in a while! NBD!', but I don't think that really does anything to convince people to buy it anyway.

Young people seem more "sporty" about looking at alternatives.  One young lady at work drives a plug-in Prius.  I asked her about her experience with the car, and she was enthusiastic about it - she was able to drive one leg of the commute on electric, and use petrol on the way home (quite a commute), as there are no charging facilities near the office.   She felt that a longer range plug-in hybrid would be a good fit for her.  She didn't think a 100% EV was for her, but she was obviously 100% clued in as to what the alternatives are, and was willing to spend her money on it.

[David Hess]

Also, anyone can add their house or business to PlugShare or some other EV charging app and sell power for those who are desperate.

In the US I anticipate that would confront considerable regulatory, zoning, and neighbor issues.  It is often the case that law and politics are the greatest hurtles to overcome rather than engineering and economics.

[nctnico]

Hydrogen cars will never gain traction for one simple reason. You can't charge them at home, which is the greatest benefit of EV's.
Ok, home hydrogen solution do exist, in theory, but it's just a dumb idea.

I think a lot of people are locked into the idea of needing to go to a servo to refuel and fail to realise the benefit of being able to recharge at home or pretty much anywhere for that matter. Instead they get caught up in a false notion that they'll have to stress about keeping the EV charged up.

Charging at home only works if you have an outlet you can use. And you'll need to find outlets along the road as well. Having to depend on public charging gets expensive quickly. The days of free charging are definitely over. Prices in the NL range from 50 eurocent to 80 eurocent per kWh (also at street level charging points) which translates to spending well over 10 eurocents per km. An ICE hybrid is cheaper to fuel even with the insanely high prices of gasoline/petrol in the NL. Companies who run the public charging stations in the NL are so secretive about their charging tarifs that the government agency which deals with consumer rights has summoned those companies to have clear pricing information on their website and on their charging points otherwise they'll face sanctions.

[BrianHG]

I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

[EEVblog]

I have an odd question...
     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

Yes. Several of the Level 2 chargers have programmable NFC type access.
EDIT:, oh realised you meant normal power point. I'm sure there is somewhere.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?

[sandalcandal]

I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

Loads of solutions available on the market for exactly the situation you describe:
Wallbox Copper SB
Delta AC Mini Plus
KEBA Fast EV Charging Station
...many more

Edit: Bigger worry should probably be making sure ICE cars don't steal the spot with the charger

Also noticed some ****** trying to patent NFC authentication, not just a dumb thing to patent but they filed it in 2019

[BrianHG]

I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

Loads of solutions available on the market for exactly the situation you describe:
Wallbox Copper SB
Delta AC Mini Plus
KEBA Fast EV Charging Station
...many more

Edit: Bigger worry should probably be making sure ICE cars don't steal the spot with the charger

Also noticed some ****** trying to patent NFC authentication, not just a dumb thing to patent but they filed it in 2019

The fact that I publicly mentioned the idea means if it wasn't already patented, you could no longer get a patent.  It's already public knowledge.  This is the rule.

All the boxes you mentioned are high powered.  I only need 120v, 15 amps service per outlet.  Something in the 400$-600$ range power NFC outlet.  We do not need speed, all we need is slow and compatible with existing outdoor building wiring which can be handled with any contract electrician at a reasonable cost.

[sandalcandal]

The fact that I publicly mentioned the idea means if it wasn't already patented, you could no longer get a patent.  It's already public knowledge.  This is the rule.

The idea has been public since 2012 at least. Edit: The Written Opinion of the International Searching Authority gave them NO to all claims for inventive step.

All the boxes you mentioned are high powered.  I only need 120v, 15 amps service per outlet.  Something in the 400$-600$ range power NFC outlet.  We do not need speed, all we need is slow and compatible with existing outdoor building wiring which can be handled with any contract electrician at a reasonable cost.

The power level you describe is on the level of "Level 1" cable brick solutions so nothing nicely integrated into a charging outlet with NFC for that performance-price point that I know of. If you're not opposed to getting a bit more hands on, you could take the OpenEVSE ($US399) and mod NFC support ($US40 Adafruit module) onto it without too much difficulty I think.

Pretty much all the EVSEs on the market are way overpriced for the actual hardware inside. The OpenEVSE is probably the best "functional" solution in terms of value for money. I don't think there's anything cheaper unless you go to Alibaba specials.

[mikeselectricstuff]

All the boxes you mentioned are high powered.  I only need 120v, 15 amps service per outlet.  Something in the 400$-600$ range power NFC outlet.  We do not need speed, all we need is slow and compatible with existing outdoor building wiring which can be handled with any contract electrician at a reasonable cost.

Another possible option - standard outdoor outlets inside small lockable enclosures, or outdoor weatherproof sockets that can be locked with a padlock if necessary]

[nctnico]

I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax. Also do some math on how much you can actually charge. From a single 16A 230V circuit you can charge about 120km of range in 8 hours.

[BrianHG]

I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax. Also do some math on how much you can actually charge. From a single 16A 230V circuit you can charge about 120km of range in 8 hours.

No one is driving more than 50km to and from work.  I'm offering a means of replenishing what they lost + if they also do a little extra for in city business trips.  This is like an added courtesy as I'll soon be entering the EV market myself and I want to promote it.  If anyone needs to do a longer business road-trip, they will know to keep their car charged and will definitely make up for it over time.  I can always invest in 1 single high capacity outlet in 1 dedicated spot just for measure.

[EEVblog]

I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.

Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it. 

[EEVblog]

Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?

Yeah, I'd say odds are very low. And wouldn't it be an allocated parking space anyway?

[nctnico]

I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.

Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.

Well.. in the Netherlands an employer has to add the costs for the electricity and the charger to the taxable income of the employee. This means that the charging points need to be metered per employee (on an individual basis). It is likely that other countries have similar arrangements or at least rules for what amount can be given to employees without having tax implications. To avoid all this hassle it is easier to have a commercial party install EV chargers and deal with the administrative side of it.

[BrianHG]

Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?

Yeah, I'd say odds are very low. And wouldn't it be an allocated parking space anyway?

Since it is outdoors, there is the weekends and nights...
And here in Montreal, the current plug-in recharge stations charge at an electrical rate of 2x the equivilant of gas per km.  If my business is leasing cars for all the heads and partners, we believe this to be a nice option for when we take a 200km (total round trip) road trip (3/4) of the day to nearby city, or province, that they can replenish at the office since we would be paying for the gas anyways if it were an ICE.  Yes, we get to write off gas on the company gas card anyways, but we will not pay that stupid ridiculous 2x electrical charge point cost here in Montreal/Quebec when our home electricity is one of the cheapest in Canada.  It's almost as if those charge stations are subsidizing our residential and commercial power bills.  Otherwise, our business will just supply the corporate gas cards and we will have higher expenses in paying for fuel, but not this 2x cost per km charge station price where I can drop the whole EV idea for everyone all together.

[EEVblog]

Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?

Yeah, I'd say odds are very low. And wouldn't it be an allocated parking space anyway?

Since it is outdoors, there is the weekends and nights...

Fair enough.
Surely are a plethora of app controlled power points these days? Just replace the standard power point with an app controlled one?
Something like this?
https://www.techome.com.au/shop/th892-e-remote-control-electrician-installed-power-point/
But disable the manual override switch.

[EEVblog]

I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.

Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.

Well.. in the Netherlands an employer has to add the costs for the electricity and the charger to the taxable income of the employee. This means that the charging points need to be metered per employee (on an individual basis). It is likely that other countries have similar arrangements or at least rules for what amount can be given to employees without having tax implications. To avoid all this hassle it is easier to have a commercial party install EV chargers and deal with the administrative side of it.

That's nuts. Why would you even tell the tax department for starters?
It's like saying people aren't allowed to charge up their personal mobile phone at work, or use on site "end of trip" facilities like a hair dryer, hot shower etc that use energy. Sure the power levels are different, but technically the same thing.
And if it's a business car, no problem.

[SilverSolder]

[...]
It's like saying people aren't allowed to charge up their personal mobile phone at work, or use on site "end of trip" facilities like a hair dryer, hot shower etc that use energy.
[...]

Some countries' revenue services have this kind of thing down to a fine art,  where - for example - you pay more property tax if you have a nice view out of the windows...  or if you are using a company cell phone for personal calls...  and so on.  Millimeter democracy is so tedious.

[BrianHG]

Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?

Yeah, I'd say odds are very low. And wouldn't it be an allocated parking space anyway?

Since it is outdoors, there is the weekends and nights...

Fair enough.
Surely are a plethora of app controlled power points these days? Just replace the standard power point with an app controlled one?
Something like this?
https://www.techome.com.au/shop/th892-e-remote-control-electrician-installed-power-point/
But disable the manual override switch.

Ok, thanks, I get your point, but we are talking outdoors where we need to meet regulatory safety concerns for the plugs themselves.  As for metering, accounting is used to knowing who used what since we currently get the $$ spent with corporate gas card in the monthly statements.  I do have over a year before we will be implementing this, but I'm sure I will find a solution which will make it worth my time in the long run and it wont be spending 3K$ for each parking spot, but maybe just 1 high speed/current plus few more simple level outdoor 1 AC ports for the rest which will have software control.

[nctnico]

I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.

Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.

Well.. in the Netherlands an employer has to add the costs for the electricity and the charger to the taxable income of the employee. This means that the charging points need to be metered per employee (on an individual basis). It is likely that other countries have similar arrangements or at least rules for what amount can be given to employees without having tax implications. To avoid all this hassle it is easier to have a commercial party install EV chargers and deal with the administrative side of it.

That's nuts. Why would you even tell the tax department for starters?

It is not nuts; it is the law. Not telling the tax department is fraud. Simple as that.