How to deal with manipulative coworker

[pcprogrammer]

It's also not the Dutch way.

What is the Dutch way? I guess the guy who is stabbing you in the back is Dutch. Is that the Dutch way? Don't forget there are assholes in every culture.

Best to be true to your self. Open up the job pages and see if there is some other job for you, even if that means a bit more travel back and forth. Your health will benefit from it, and your next job does not have to be the perfect and forever one. See it as a stepping stone to get away from the toxic environment you seem to be in now.

[nctnico]

I agree.  @tszaboo: Hand in your resignation letter tomorrow stating that you don't want to work with or for someone who is making you look bad. Hence you'll be leaving. See how that plays out.

Personally I would not even bother staying at such a company. Too much hassle with office politics and by what you write it looks like there will be no end to it anyway

I don't want to do that without plan B. I don't think that would achieve anything, because I saw that it didn't in the past. We don't have a dedicated HR person who would be able to do anything about this as well.

Plan B is to get another job and I agree with what HuronKing wrote.

Another option is to become self employed. That way you never really have to deal with what other people think & do. This works very well for me; I can become as much part of the team as I like and skip all the office politics. All of the 'good', none of the 'bad'.

[snarkysparky]

I keep enough money saved.  The very fcking instant I am told that i am on "notice"  I will provide them with a "notice"  and they can watch my backside exit.

Its the only way to keep your mental health.  I never get too attached to a job.  It's just not good for you.   

I occasionally let em know that i can go.   I actually told my boss the other day to "get the f off me"  as he was looking over my shoulders while I was moving files on a computer and micro managing.

Of course I won't get promoted.  But that is another route to misery,  so I am OK with that.

[pcprogrammer]

Another option is to become self employed. That way you never really have to deal with what other people think & do. This works very well for me; I can become as much part of the team as I like and skip all the office politics. All of the 'good', none of the 'bad'.

Sure being self employed could solve some problems, but it ain't always easy. It depends very much on contacts you have and there is also a matter of responsibility and liability to consider. Then there is also the administrative side of things, that take up time. Don't think it is a 9 to 5 job, being self employed.

I was lucky that basically all the time work fell into my lap, and I never had to go out and look for it. It worked out well for me, and being wise with money plus not having kids allowed me to be where I am today. Have I had kids it would have been a different story, because it takes a lot of money to raise them.

So it depends very much on what your situation is, if you can take the gamble on starting your own business.

[nctnico]

Another option is to become self employed. That way you never really have to deal with what other people think & do. This works very well for me; I can become as much part of the team as I like and skip all the office politics. All of the 'good', none of the 'bad'.

Sure being self employed could solve some problems, but it ain't always easy. It depends very much on contacts you have and there is also a matter of responsibility and liability to consider. Then there is also the administrative side of things, that take up time. Don't think it is a 9 to 5 job, being self employed.

Administrative work is minimal. And work hours are flexible indeed but I see that as a positive thing.

I was lucky that basically all the time work fell into my lap, and I never had to go out and look for it. It worked out well for me, and being wise with money plus not having kids allowed me to be where I am today. Have I had kids it would have been a different story, because it takes a lot of money to raise them.

If you have kids, you just factor that in into the amount of money you need to make. Sometimes I need to go on a hunt for work but even for someone like me that is very doable. There is always a new project around the corner somewhere.

[james_s]

Being self employed sounds incredibly stressful to me. I just want to be assigned a job to do, do it, and get a regular paycheck that is the same amount every time. I don't like feast & famine situations where I never know how much to budget for the next month.

[nctnico]

To me being self employed is like being retired with some jobs on the side  I'd tinker with electronics and computers anyway. Having a deadline just makes sure projects actually get finished.

[fourfathom]

I was self-employed for a while, after I quit a job where the product-line was dying and the rats were leaving the sinking ship.  My boss offered to practically double my salary, but a buddy and I quit and did consulting jobs for about a year.  I had a wife, three young kids, and a mortgage, but we got by, just barely.  It was an interesting experience but I spent too much time finding clients and too little time doing the fun part.

So when I got the offer to join one of those risky start-ups I jumped at the chance.  My wife was thrilled that I would actually get a regular paycheck again.  And that sort of calibrated our attitude towards risk and reward.

Speaking of career calibration, perhaps the best thing that ever happened to me (in that department) was early in my career when I got fired for non-quality-of-work reasons.  I quickly found a better job, and realized that the employment relationship is not "'til death do us part". You are hired to help the company make money.  While there, you try to do a good job.  If the company no longer needs you they let you go, one way or another.  You owe them your best effort, but not your life.  If you have a better opportunity (and the definition of "better" is up to you) then you should take it, while trying to make the transition as easy as practical.  In the OP's case, the actions of the company mean the moral obligation to ease the transition no longer exists.  Start looking for a better job.

[tszaboo]

It's also not the Dutch way.

What is the Dutch way? I guess the guy who is stabbing you in the back is Dutch. Is that the Dutch way? Don't forget there are assholes in every culture.

I think you misunderstood. The Dutch way seems to me that everyone in a meeting needs to agree before it can continue.
I dont have this, perfectly capable on working on something that I didn't had a say in.

[langwadt]

I keep enough money saved.  The very fcking instant I am told that i am on "notice"  I will provide them with a "notice"  and they can watch my backside exit.

I don't know how it is in the Nederlands, but here if you quit you have one month notice and after that 3 weeks with no unemployment pay.
if you get fired your notice is three months plus an extra month for every three years of employment, so if the company wants to get rid of
you they would much prefer you quit rather than firing you
 

[nctnico]

I keep enough money saved.  The very fcking instant I am told that i am on "notice"  I will provide them with a "notice"  and they can watch my backside exit.

I don't know how it is in the Nederlands, but here if you quit you have one month notice and after that 3 weeks with no unemployment pay.
if you get fired your notice is three months plus an extra month for every three years of employment, so if the company wants to get rid of
you they would much prefer you quit rather than firing you

In the NL you might get welfare if you quit but no unemployment pay. If you get fired, then you are entitled to some pay but this has been cut down drastically due to the financial crisis. Companies could no longer afford to fire people and went belly up because the companies couldn't pay the salaries.

So yes, having a next job lined up before you quit is a good idea if you plan on getting a different job. I doubt tszaboo will have any difficulty finding a new job. Probably a good company to look out for is one which has other foreign people working there so the company is already used to different cultures and customs.

[fourfathom]

I don't know how it is in the Nederlands, but here if you quit you have one month notice and after that 3 weeks with no unemployment pay.
if you get fired your notice is three months plus an extra month for every three years of employment, so if the company wants to get rid of
you they would much prefer you quit rather than firing you

Everyone has different financial needs, but if by waiting for them to fire you you miss out on a good opportunity and have to spend more time in Hell, then it may be better to just walk away.  This is your career and your life we're talking about here, and a gaining a bit more money may cost you dearly in other ways.  Robert Heinlein wrote “In the course of a long life, one should be prepared to abandon one's baggage several times."  I think this is useful advice.

[SiliconWizard]

I keep enough money saved.  The very fcking instant I am told that i am on "notice"  I will provide them with a "notice"  and they can watch my backside exit.

I don't know how it is in the Nederlands, but here if you quit you have one month notice and after that 3 weeks with no unemployment pay.
if you get fired your notice is three months plus an extra month for every three years of employment, so if the company wants to get rid of
you they would much prefer you quit rather than firing you

Here it depends on the job level. For a typical engineering position, that's 3-month notice. (1-month for lower level positions.) That can sometimes be negotiated. And can be up to 6-month for top-management positions.

Now if you *resign*, rather than get fired, you get the same notice but are (usually) not entitled to unemployment benefits. At all. In a number of rare cases, you may after one month or so, but that's only for particular situations. Here they consider that if you resign out of your free will (you were not forced to), it's your decision, and you get no help.

For the other point, same. It usually costs significant money to fire someone that has been employed for a number of years.

[WillTurner]

  "He will choose you, disarm you with his words, and control you with his presence. He will delight you with his wit and his plans. He will smile and deceive you, and he will scare you with his eyes. And when he is through with you, and he will be through with you, he will desert you, and take with him your innocence and your pride."
                                Robert D. Hare, "Without Conscience"

I think you may have obliquely come across Robert Hare "The Psychopathy Checklist" eg [1] and [2]. If not, do some serious reading.

Psychopaths  occur in relationships, within organizations, or control nations. 

Defensive moves are limited, and  probably ineffective, however the first step [2] is to acknowledge the situation. Then you have some options:

• counterattack (involves exposing yourself) and you win by engaging a bigger (say, management) psychopath or being one yourself. Good luck with that .
• drive them away (eg offer not to press criminal charges in exchange for their resignation.) Good luck with that also.
• run (maybe the only viable option).

Also, do not empathise.

Maybe only a few percent of humans are psychopaths, but they do immense damage to the rest of us.

References
[1] "The Psychopathy Checklist by Robert Hare" https://exploringyourmind.com/the-psychopathy-checklist-by-robert-hare/
[2] Verstappen, Stefan "Defense against the Psychopath", Woodbridge Press 2011

[pcprogrammer]

It's also not the Dutch way.

What is the Dutch way? I guess the guy who is stabbing you in the back is Dutch. Is that the Dutch way? Don't forget there are assholes in every culture.

I think you misunderstood. The Dutch way seems to me that everyone in a meeting needs to agree before it can continue.
I dont have this, perfectly capable on working on something that I didn't had a say in.

Well then things must have changed since I retired. Have been in several meetings during my working days and points could easily be left open. But as with everything things do change over time and this might be one of them.

Regarding self employment I think nctnico oversimplifies things based on his own experiences. There are lots of things to consider like the rules for employer employee relationships. Don't know what the rules are know, but when I was self employed (>10 years ago), there were rules about when you worked for a company being self employed to test if there was no employer employee relationship, just to avoid paying additional social taxes. Could be very expensive for both parties if the inspection revealed such a relationship.

Furthermore if your work is hardware related it involves investments like buying your own test equipment to setup your own lab.

I'm not saying it is not a way to go, just be aware of what is involved in doing so. Be well informed before taking the step.

[SL4P]

Give them your contact details when you leave.
He’ll move on soon enough, and the employer might see wj
hat they’ve lost… then it’s your choice, and your terms if you chose to go back… or not.

[Haenk]

"I had 6 manager in the past 5 years"

This really hints at some serious issues within the company management itself, unless it's a huge company where personal is shifted around for various projects.

I'd say "run", but remember to cover your back. Keep a copy of everything you are told to do. Don't tell them you are looking for a new job, play the nice guy. You are essentially already mobbed out of the company and they are just waiting for a reason to terminate you. So try to don't even give them the slightest reason.

[nctnico]

It's also not the Dutch way.

What is the Dutch way? I guess the guy who is stabbing you in the back is Dutch. Is that the Dutch way? Don't forget there are assholes in every culture.

I think you misunderstood. The Dutch way seems to me that everyone in a meeting needs to agree before it can continue.
I dont have this, perfectly capable on working on something that I didn't had a say in.

Well then things must have changed since I retired. Have been in several meetings during my working days and points could easily be left open. But as with everything things do change over time and this might be one of them.

Regarding self employment I think nctnico oversimplifies things based on his own experiences. There are lots of things to consider like the rules for employer employee relationships. Don't know what the rules are know, but when I was self employed (>10 years ago), there were rules about when you worked for a company being self employed to test if there was no employer employee relationship, just to avoid paying additional social taxes. Could be very expensive for both parties if the inspection revealed such a relationship.

That is only a problem if you have one customer that you work for full time. In such a case you are no more or less than an employee and should consider becoming an employee of that customer (typically a customer will ask when hours start to mount up).

I always had multiple customers; actually it is better to work on two projects in parallel or alternate in short (several week) bursts for different customers. Even if the project spans multiple years. It may happen that a project gets cancelled for some reason and then you are suddenly out of work and income if you have no other customers / projects lined up.

Furthermore if your work is hardware related it involves investments like buying your own test equipment to setup your own lab.

That is true. I have invested quite a bit of money in test equipment over the years but in the end it amounts to a few percent of total revenue. Partly due to buying second hand equipment.

[Mario87]

I've been in a similar (altho not quite as bad) position at my last job. I just kept quiet, did my work and kept looking for a new job.

Eventually found a new company to go to, at the HR exit interview I burnt all my bridges in the old company and told them everything, however I think it had some effect as I knew they were already hiring my replacement before I left, spoke to someone who worked there almost a year later and the new hire never materialized, I feel HR put a halt on things.

Difference for us was we were a small company owned by one of the UK's largest companies and the exit interview was done by corporate, not the actual company I worked for, so corporate actually took what I said quite seriously as from what I understand they are actually quite good to work for directly.

Bottom line is, since I left, I have not been happier in my job. Don't stick around, it will only get worse!

[PlainName]

Furthermore if your work is hardware related it involves investments like buying your own test equipment to setup your own lab.

Isn't that a benefit?

[pcprogrammer]

Furthermore if your work is hardware related it involves investments like buying your own test equipment to setup your own lab.

Isn't that a benefit?

Definitely, with as an added bonus no VAT and a deduction on your tax bill due to write off over three years. A lot of what I bought in the time I was self employed has benefited from these perks. As long as I could make a reasonable argument it was needed for the business. Little did they know that an expensive oscilloscope was not needed for doing PC related software development

[freda]

TIP:Never conclude a meeting without followup notes:
Note, many meetings are not formal with minutes, or a manager attending.

If your responsible about some point of work, its hard to not
show passion about it, the gaslighter will use that against you.

Though humbly you might have something wrong too.

After the meeting always write the set of points raised in the meeting,
and conclusions and alternative points, and or reasons for/against.

Apart from your OWN points, do NOT name whoever other points are
apportioned from. (whoever is reading will know what points they own)
stay factual.

Email the notes to all attendees, and the department manager.

If you did make some mistake, whoever pointed it out is forced to
reply to you in writing. So deal with it congenially, this is team work.

The thing about gaslighters, is that they are just about never as good
technically as you, or other colleagues. But they will out talk you,
and beat you on the podium, and strangely even colleagues who are non-committal
about some point will weirdly be against you too, yes they are being manipulated
without even knowing it. I mean f#%#$@ they can be really good at it,
you will be bamboozled as to how that can be....It amazing how we humans
can be misdirected in remembering something differently to how it actually
happened.....some people are good at using that.

anyway, if you follow the procedure above you will very quickly find
out if is worth standing your ground/job or start looking for another
job pronto.
A genuine gaslighter will also feel cornered and you will be enemy #1.

Purely verbal meetings are a waste of time, but surprisingly are easily sucked
into to. So you need some self discipline to document them.

[tszaboo]

I've just received the official complaint letter. I'm going to ask formally for third part mediation. That's gotta be annoying enough for them, plus I wonder what sort of mediator wouldn't agree with me at least partially. Plus probably the proposed resolution would be apologizing, that I'm quite willing to do anyway.
I mean it's just a workplace conflict between employees.
And showing that I'm willing to cooperate would absolutely defuse their attempts of threatening my job.

[PlainName]

And showing that I'm willing to cooperate

Might not the request for an external mediator be seen as not cooperating? It's kind of saying you want to argue your case, and the only reason to do that is if you disagree with them. I think from their PoV, cooperating would be doffing your cap and agreeing with whatever the letter says, offering your apologies and saying you won't do it again.

I mean it's just a workplace conflict between employees

That's what it should be, but it seems to have turned into much more than that. I wouldn't use 'just' when it's potentially losing one's livelihood.

[rstofer]

Your resignation letter should read like the following with no additions:

Please accept my resignation effective <insert date here>

Sign and date but do NOT offer up reasons or excuses.  If possible, decline any meetings with Employee Relations other than those required to transfer any retirement amounts.  Sign acknowledgements of NDAs still in effect, don't agree to Non-Competes (they're not allowed in California, I don't know about elsewhere)

https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-reminds-employers-and-workers-noncompete-agreements-are

During the exit interview, if pressed, you are pursuing other opportunities.  Do NOT mention any internal struggles, they can find those for themselves.