Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog

[Rene]

Hello.

SDG1025 owner here. I can also confirm that the SDG1025 has a loud fan. Nowhere near as loud of a Rigol instrument fan but definitely loud if you are working on a fairly quite place.

The sad part about the SDG1025 is that it does not need to be loud at all. Its only loud because they drilled tiny little hoes on both side of the instrument for ventilation purposes. And of course, since hot air does not travel sideways through tiny little holes they ended up needing to add a fan (a loud one to add insult to injury).

I am not expert on instrument design but it seems pretty obvious to me that the generator could have been easily designed to not require a fan at all given enough ventilation holes throughout the case.

Hopefully manufactures will start looking into making their equipment as silent as it can be. I know there is at least one manufacturer that makes a fan-less oscilloscope so I am pretty sure they are paying attention to the issue.

Besides the noise, Siglent also needs to look at the user interface design, I don't mean to be rude but the SDG1025 interface is pretty bad and not intuitive at all. There is definitely room for improvement there.

Thanks.

[MartyD]

I have done some temperature measurements on my SDG1025 and the SDM3055.
As it turns out, the SDG1025 indeed needs more air to stay cool, I've measured 30,4°C on the fan. The SDM3055 has around 26°C there, both measured after several hours of operation at 22,5°C room temperature. The SDM3055 is almost inaudible compared to the SDG1025.
As you can see in the picture, both use identical cases, only the front panel differs. Since front-to-back-cooling or bottom-to-top is impractical on a stackable unit Siglents decision to put them on the side makes sense. However, some more passive cooling components inside could easily help making the unit quieter. But I guess it's cheaper to throw in a fan than equipping the internals with proper heatsinks. 

About the GUI of the SDG1025: I never really needed the manual, it took me about 30 minutes to fully understand how to operate it. If there is something I could complain about it's the colors of the outputs. On the front panel they are blue and yellow, on the screen they appear green and yellow. Nothing that can't be fixed in a firmware update though.

The SDM3055 behaves almost exactly like an Agilent 34461A, but it has some extra features and still some firmware bugs which need to be fixed.
Oh btw: I'd be very interested why it doesn't have a hard power switch and consumes 7,4W in standby mode (12,3W in operation).

Marty

[tautech]

Marty.
Thanks for your constructive feedback.
Siglent is always watching and appreciative of quality comments, good or bad along with suggestions for product improvement. These are on-going, both firmware and hardware.
As you are probably aware the careful use of English and its "meaning" is needed for them to fully understand some issues.
Alternativley we agents can and do assist with interpretation/explanation.

I have a SDM3055 coming soon and hope to confirm some of your concerns too.
Looks like I'll be putting a master switch on my test equipment from what you say. 

Please keep it coming. 

[MartyD]

@tautech:
I apologize for my weird english, it's not my first language and I mostly only need it to read datasheets. And yea, I try to be as constructive as possible.

Regarding the soft power button on the SDM3055: I can only imagine that some circuits are still powered in standby mode so the Meter doesn't need to warm up after switching it on. I cannot imagine the flashing LED consuming over 7W just for fun. But only some explanation from a Siglent engineer could enlighten us about this. 

Also, if anybody is interested, I could make a video review about the Meter.
I was promised a new firmware version in a week from now on, so this would be the ideal time for a first review since I now know the Meter, it's firmware and the quirks good enough.

Marty

[rf-loop]

Oh btw: I'd be very interested why it doesn't have a hard power switch

I have criticized it in SDS2000 series oscilloscopes.

This "standby" / "on" power switch alone without real 2-pole hard switch  is not at all good practise. I do not think so much power consumption in standby mode  (but also it is not acceptable)  but also safety.  I have in my lab well over 20 equipments allways ready for use + others. If all these have only standby switch whole orchestra take allways well over 100W in standby, say example over  150W estimate.  It means 3.6 kWh per day and over 1300kWh/a!  Just for nothing! (exept in Finland witer time it is part of house heating, but opposite in summer time when need use power for cooling extra heating)

But there is other aspects.

If psu fails it may itself made short or some other not so nice things. If it fails night time when equipments are alone, it may produce smoke and lab fire alarm go on.  I know there is also equipments what really need be stand By or even powered. Example frequency reference (house standard) and some equipments what have higher precision OCXO. Because shut off OCXO means frequency retract and it may need days for walk back to ageing curve this retract.  But even all these equipments have hard switch. And in well designed equipments hard mains switch is always 2 pole switch. (many chinese equipments have only 1-pole mains switch and it switch in most countries live or neutral wire. In some equipment and if some user have not grounded his equipment.... switching neutral off and leaving live 230Vac on is also least potential danger = this stupid one pole swith practice need also stop!)  Also some times mains  have breakouts and spikes...etc.

 If I have power I will set rule without exeptions that every T&M equipment, powered directly 110-240V mains,  need 2-pole mains switch without any exeptions.  Yes some can say there is mains plug and you can pull it out. Yes  --- there is, but...

I do not like system where cheap simple switch mode psu is always connected to mains and partially working, least primary side. 
Also all these generate EMI.  If I want EMI/RFI true silence, now I need plug out these equipments from mains because they do not have hard switch. Not good at all. many equipment need be on only if need use it.  (exept these what really need standby for accuracy stability)

I can not find any positive argument for leave hard 2-pole switch out from construction but I find lot of arguments why it is bad.  My opinion is: Really bad "fashion" but this is not alone Siglent. It is common "problem".

[Rene]

Hi Marty,

Since front-to-back-cooling or bottom-to-top is impractical on a stackable unit Siglents decision to put them on the side makes sense.

Good point.

But even if side to side cooling was the only way to go, I think the current design could be vastly improved by simply making the air holes a lot bigger and throwing in a bigger slower an more quiet fan... at-least that is my feeling.

About the GUI of the SDG1025: I never really needed the manual, it took me about 30 minutes to fully understand how to operate it.

This is because the SDG1025 is a simple piece of equipment (it does not do much) but that does not take away the fact that the current user interface is non-intuitive. Put simply, there is no reason why things need to be more complicated than they have to be.

Thanks.

[nctnico]

I don't see what is complicated about the user interface. I never had to read the manual for my SDG1010. Only the firmware update procedure is not obvious.

[Rene]

I did't say that the user interface is complicated, I said that the user interface is more complicated than it needs to be. More than anything, its awkward and non intuitive.

In my view, there is plenty of room for improvement, but this is just my personal opinion.

[MartyD]

@rf-loop:

I am totally with you on this! I will never understand whats so complicated about just throwing in a 2-pole switch...

However, to "protect" my electricity meter from soft power switches I use these all around my house:

They also provide some overvoltage protection.


And on my UPS you can see what the few things on my hobby bench consume doing absolutely nothing:



It's a shame!

Marty

[cozdas]

Hi,
I sent this to support@siglent.com but received no reply. So I'm trying hoping that someone can help me figure out if the unit is malfunctioning or it's an user error:

-----

I'm trying to capture and analyze an occasional, non-periodic signal with my SDS1072CML .

I can do that without any trouble in the "Normal Mem Depth" mode;
- I just set the time to 50ms/div
- set the trigger to be triggered on the dropping edge
- set the trigger mode to "Normal"

when the signal arrives, I see it on the screen, I can zoom in to see the details of the signal or switch on the "delayed" mode by depressing the time knob. I can even stop the capture to prevent the next signal to re-trigger. All works as expected every time: so far so good.

But if I set the "Mem Depth" mode to "LongMem" then almost nothing works:

With the LongMem mode, sometimes I see the captured signal when it's triggered, sometimes I don't see the signal even after I zoom out to see the whole captured data. If the signal is there, turning on the delay mode behaves in a weird way: the bottom detail view doesn't pan with the position knob and it either shows a garbage data or a previous signal, not the one I've just captured.

It behaves as if the longmem memory modules are not recording and/or recalling the data properly (memory corruption?)

long mem feature is very important for this task as I need to analyse a long signal in detail, normal mem depth doesn't give me enough detail.

Please let me know what I should I do.

Thanks

[PeterSD]

I have just received my Siglent SDS 1102CMS and posted a thread on here before realising this thread exists. This is seems to be the ideal place to get a direct response and support from Siglent.

I have read quite a few pages of posts in this thread and I am very impressed Siglent have handled the various comments, demonstrated they are listening and are prepared to respond and implement changes. This is most welcome and also unusual for a manufacturer. It can only help boost confidence within the user community.

I am building a model railway layout which includes many electronic modules, all connected together with a CAN BUS. I had an PC oscilloscope previously but found that support was poor and the unit quickly became obsolete.

Now to get back to my Siglent questions.

Packaging was very good and I quickly set up the Oscilloscope and probes. I then went on to install the software but found that the integration did not work. I am using Windows 7 on my PC and it did not identify the scope nor any driver for it.

1. I was advised to download the software from the Siglent site which I tried to do. The site informed me that I must be logged in. I tried to register many times but each time it failed to accept my registration attempts. Looking at the pattern of failures it would seem that the fact I am retired and not working for a company was the source of the problem. The name of my Unit/Company was the only question that still had a query against it. I had to give up. Can Siglent please look into this and advise me how I can register? Unless registered, we cannot get any support as feedback is also barred unless you are registered.

2. The version of Easyscope that I received on my disc has a release date of mid 2013. The site version has a release date of Sept 2014. It may well be that my scope was manufactured and shipped before Sept 2014 but it would be better to give copies of any new pc software to the retail distributors for shipping with items still held in stock for sale.   Could Siglent please consider this?

3. I now have a copy of the new software. I cleared all the previously loaded software from my computer then installed the new version of easyscope followed by NI visa512runtime.exe which was also included in the zipped package. I then opened up Easyscope and then connected my scope to the PC running Windows 7. The scope was not seen in the Easyscope program. I check my Printers and Devices PC utility and found that it was now correctly identified by model number but without a driver being present. Could Siglent please advise me of the actions I need to take?

Well that's all for now.

[Mark_O]

1. I was advised to download the software from the Siglent site which I tried to do. The site informed me that I must be logged in. I tried to register many times but each time it failed to accept my registration attempts. Looking at the pattern of failures it would seem that the fact I am retired and not working for a company was the source of the problem. The name of my Unit/Company was the only question that still had a query against it. I had to give up. Can Siglent please look into this and advise me how I can register? Unless registered, we cannot get any support as feedback is also barred unless you are registered.

Just enter anything in that field, Peter.  I find that "Stuff and Nonsense, Inc." works pretty well.    It's not like it's going to run a corporate search, and reject anything it can't find.  They're just data mining.  Heck, if enough people did that, it may someday show up in their Marketing literature, with "Stuff and Nonsense, Inc." listed alongside other major company customers, who have bought their products!

2. The version of Easyscope that I received on my disc has a release date of mid 2013. The site version has a release date of Sept 2014. It may well be that my scope was manufactured and shipped before Sept 2014 but it would be better to give copies of any new pc software to the retail distributors for shipping with items still held in stock for sale.   Could Siglent please consider this?

Ouch.  No.  I understand the sentiment, and why that might seem handy to you, but things change too quickly, and what you're proposing would be a major PITA (for manufs.), and add more expense to the distribution chain.  Plus delay getting units out to customers.  None of which is a good thing, in my book.  So, please, no.


Besides, requiring registration before downloading software that works only with your device is in itself foolish, IMO.  Your software should run in a demo mode if no device is present, and thus act as enhanced advertising content (if its any good).  I know why Marketing does this, to bulk up their mailing lists, but I'm not sure when I enter my Contact info as:  Bilbo Baggins, 12 Middle Earth Ln, etc. it does them much good. 

[nixxon]

Well the original X1 crystal is clearly 25MHz too, so it makes sense to replace it with a 25MHz TXCO. He also has an SDG1025, not an SDG1010. So I really don't understand your suspicion?

Now I just have to install the new TCXO in my SDG1020 and see if it works. It hope it is the right size. It looks so small.

is there a measurable difference?

I installed the TCXO yesterday and used the SDG1020's frequency counter to measure a 10 MHz Morion MV85 OCXO (Uin not connected, so the frequency is pulled >0.5 ppm (between 5 and 10 Hz) below OCXO middle value)

With the original 25 MHz crystal installed, the SDG1020 measured 9,999830 MHz (-17 ppm) 9.999849 (-15.1ppm)
With the 25 MHz 0.1 ppm TCXO installed, the SDG1020 measured 9,999996 MHz (-0.4 ppm)

EDIT 2015/03/13: My SDG1020 with the 0.1 ppm Vanguard TCXO outputs 9.9999990 MHz when set to 10 MHz (that is exactly 0.1 ppm low). Measured with a HP 5315A frequency counter with OCXO option installed, calibrated using a Rubidium (FE-5680B) frequency standard.
*********************
My HP 5315A measures the 10 MHz OCXO a little high, at 10.000015 MHz. No longer the case - standard XO replaced by OCXO

2 hours ago, I ordered the parts at Farnell that I need to fit the MV85 OCXO onto the PCB by amc184 that goes into the 5315A as the new frequency reference. And now I just received an email from Farnell stating that the order has shipped from their warehouse in UK. Pretty fast handling. I will not be surprised if the shipment is delivered to my door (in Norway) by tomorrow.

EDIT (17 hours after order was placed):

Farnell element14 (or UPS) is hauling ass with my 100g parcel - 1468 miles driven in ~10 hours (after departure scanning in Leeds):

Google map route

Very impressive. They are obviously serious about logistics.

Gardermoen, Norway   
16.12.2014   07:59   Departure scanning
16.12.2014   07:15   Importskanning
Oslo, Norway   
16.12.2014   06:28   Arrival scanning
Malmo Sturup, Sweden   
16.12.2014   05:18   Departure scanning
16.12.2014   04:17   Arrival scanning
Koeln, Germany   
16.12.2014   02:56   Departure scanning
16.12.2014   01:08   Arrival scanning
Castle Donnington, United Kingdom   
15.12.2014   22:52   Departure scanning
15.12.2014   21:10   Arrival scanning
Leeds, United Kingdom
15.12.2014   20:55   Departure scanning
15.12.2014   19:19   Export scanning
15.12.2014   19:19   Origin scanning (or something like that)
United Kingdom   
15.12.2014   13:32   Order handled:  Ready for UPS

[rf-loop]

2. The version of Easyscope that I received on my disc has a release date of mid 2013. The site version has a release date of Sept 2014. It may well be that my scope was manufactured and shipped before Sept 2014 but it would be better to give copies of any new pc software to the retail distributors for shipping with items still held in stock for sale.   Could Siglent please consider this?

3. I now have a copy of the new software. I cleared all the previously loaded software from my computer then installed the new version of easyscope followed by NI visa512runtime.exe which was also included in the zipped package. I then opened up Easyscope and then connected my scope to the PC running Windows 7. The scope was not seen in the Easyscope program. I check my Printers and Devices PC utility and found that it was now correctly identified by model number but without a driver being present. Could Siglent please advise me of the actions I need to take?

Well that's all for now.

2.
Here can download EasyScopeX-EN.rar (version 02.01.05)  82,3 MB (86 304 331 bytes)

It include compatible NI-VISA runtime and also .chm  help file (.rar is just exatly as it is from Siglent).
This is last version downloadable also from Siglent (main side).

3.
It is long time I have installed (other older version) EasyScopeX what also needs NI-Visa.

If I now remember right, it must install so that first install ni-visa.


(in my case it was some manual work for clean Windows USB related things and so on after first time wrong intsllation "hassle". (but this time Siglent did not distribute even Ni-Visa...)

[Siglent]

1.

Can Siglent please look into this and advise me how I can register? Unless registered, we cannot get any support as feedback is also barred unless you are registered.

please visit http://www.siglentamerica.com/ or http://siglenteu.com/ to download it. you do not need to register.
please use the public account to download it. ID: public; password:siglent
please contact us while you have any problem. support@siglent.com

2. The version of Easyscope that I received on my disc has a release date of mid 2013. The site version has a release date of Sept 2014. It may well be that my scope was manufactured and shipped before Sept 2014 but it would be better to give copies of any new pc software to the retail distributors for shipping with items still held in stock for sale.   Could Siglent please consider this?

Siglent will offer the most stable version of software inside the CD.

3. I now have a copy of the new software. I cleared all the previously loaded software from my computer then installed the new version of easyscope followed by NI visa512runtime.exe which was also included in the zipped package. I then opened up Easyscope and then connected my scope to the PC running Windows 7. The scope was not seen in the Easyscope program. I check my Printers and Devices PC utility and found that it was now correctly identified by model number but without a driver being present. Could Siglent please advise me of the actions I need to take?

you need to install ni-visa runtime first and then install easyscope. set the oscilloscope to USB-TMC mode.
Well that's all for now.

[PeterSD]

1.

Can Siglent please look into this and advise me how I can register? Unless registered, we cannot get any support as feedback is also barred unless you are registered.

please visit http://www.siglentamerica.com/ or http://siglenteu.com/ to download it. you do not need to register.
please use the public account to download it. ID: public; password:siglent
please contact us while you have any problem. support@siglent.com

2. The version of Easyscope that I received on my disc has a release date of mid 2013. The site version has a release date of Sept 2014. It may well be that my scope was manufactured and shipped before Sept 2014 but it would be better to give copies of any new pc software to the retail distributors for shipping with items still held in stock for sale.   Could Siglent please consider this?

Siglent will offer the most stable version of software inside the CD.

3. I now have a copy of the new software. I cleared all the previously loaded software from my computer then installed the new version of easyscope followed by NI visa512runtime.exe which was also included in the zipped package. I then opened up Easyscope and then connected my scope to the PC running Windows 7. The scope was not seen in the Easyscope program. I check my Printers and Devices PC utility and found that it was now correctly identified by model number but without a driver being present. Could Siglent please advise me of the actions I need to take?

you need to install ni-visa runtime first and then install easyscope. set the oscilloscope to USB-TMC mode.
Well that's all for now.

Many thanks for your reply.

Logging on to the websites.
I have tried both websites and still cannot log on the public account. (See attachment 1)

Dealing with unsold stock when a software/firmware revision is released
The simplest way of dealing with this, requiring no additional work, could be to add a comment in the quick start manual giving the url to the support page for the instrument with details of how to log in on the public account.

Installing EasyScope X
I made the mistake of loading Easy ScopeX first. I removed both EasyScopeX and the NI visa512 runtime programs and reinstalled them in the order you give. The scope still does not appear in EasyScopex. The html document (Introduction) says Microsoft .NET framework version 3.5 is required. Windows 7 automatically installs this as part of the Windows package (see attachment 2). I am running Windows 7, Service  Pack 1.

I have checked my Devices and Printers folder within the Control Panel and confirmed that the scope is properly identified. I troubleshooted the scope and found that Windows could not identify a driver.

[PeterSD]

2. The version of Easyscope that I received on my disc has a release date of mid 2013. The site version has a release date of Sept 2014. It may well be that my scope was manufactured and shipped before Sept 2014 but it would be better to give copies of any new pc software to the retail distributors for shipping with items still held in stock for sale.   Could Siglent please consider this?

3. I now have a copy of the new software. I cleared all the previously loaded software from my computer then installed the new version of easyscope followed by NI visa512runtime.exe which was also included in the zipped package. I then opened up Easyscope and then connected my scope to the PC running Windows 7. The scope was not seen in the Easyscope program. I check my Printers and Devices PC utility and found that it was now correctly identified by model number but without a driver being present. Could Siglent please advise me of the actions I need to take?

Well that's all for now.

2.
Here can download EasyScopeX-EN.rar (version 02.01.05)  82,3 MB (86 304 331 bytes)

It include compatible NI-VISA runtime and also .chm  help file (.rar is just exatly as it is from Siglent).
This is last version downloadable also from Siglent (main side).

3.
It is long time I have installed (other older version) EasyScopeX what also needs NI-Visa.

If I now remember right, it must install so that first install ni-visa.


(in my case it was some manual work for clean Windows USB related things and so on after first time wrong intsllation "hassle". (but this time Siglent did not distribute even Ni-Visa...)

Thanks very much for your reply. Sorry for my delay in replying to you but I have just received seen your and Siglent's replies and wanted to try out the advice Siglent gave first. The order of loading the two pieces of software is not obvious in the documentation but Siglent advise the same order of installation as you do.

I think the big issue here is not associated with any of the software packages but the lack of a USB driver for the scope. Without this, there is no hope in connecting the pc to the scope. I understand why the run time programme is required as well as the .NET framework but both of these pieces of software cannot establish a scope driver. This surely is the manufacturers responsiblity. 

[tautech]

@PeterSD
from my files and zipped.
Hope this helps

The files required for a connection to EasyscopeX are supplied with NVISA.
 
ausbtmc.inf must be set as the USB driver.

[rf-loop]

Is it possible that after some mistake in installation there come "Windows secrets".

After uninstall all installed things Windows do not forget what is writed in infcache.1 (there is stored allready installed USB drivers info. Widows do not clean it. Sometimes it may do troubles. We all also know this famous phrase in many purchased equipments USB connection. "do not connect USB before you first...etc...". No one exatly know why this hassle with USB continues years after years by Microsoft....)

Then you plug in your scope and there it is, wrong inf, agen and agen.

In some cases it may need manual fix.

Some idea can get example here,  but do not follow directly, only get some idea if really need reset some individual USB problem case)
http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/165554-usb-driver-general-fix-problems.html



Ni-VISA, it (new FW  SDS1000L models)  communicate using USBTMC, not USBraw.  (this was different with same oscilloscope model with old FW versions.)

http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/044FA220F32774ED86256DB3005850CA


I hope Siglent do work for better and more accurate "follow me" installation instructions. They need be exactly, and step by step.

[PeterSD]

@PeterSD
from my files and zipped.
Hope this helps

Thank you tautech, I have to attend a meeting shortly but shall try the driver out late afternoon when I return .

[PeterSD]

Is it possible that after some mistake in installation there come "Windows secrets".

After uninstall all installed things Windows do not forget what is writed in infcache.1 (there is stored allready installed USB drivers info. Widows do not clean it. Sometimes it may do troubles. We all also know this famous phrase in many purchased equipments USB connection. "do not connect USB before you first...etc...". No one exatly know why this hassle with USB continues years after years by Microsoft....)

Then you plug in your scope and there it is, wrong inf, agen and agen.

In some cases it may need manual fix.

After any change introduced in Windows, I always reboot the system to ensure that everything is removed, regardless if Windows asks for it or not.

Some idea can get example here,  but do not follow directly, only get some idea if really need reset some individual USB problem case)
http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/165554-usb-driver-general-fix-problems.html

Thanks for this. I shall look up the information in your link later.

Ni-VISA, it (new FW  SDS1000L models)  communicate using USBTMC, not USBraw.  (this was different with same oscilloscope model with old FW versions.)

http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/044FA220F32774ED86256DB3005850CA


I hope Siglent do work for better and more accurate "follow me" installation instructions. They need be exactly, and step by step.

This is what I am asking Siglent to do. I believe that Siglent are serious in making improvements for the user, based on previous replies on this thread. A little more thought in the instructions would go a long way to achieving customer satisfaction. BTW, I am starting to use the scope as a stand-alone item and I am very pleased with the results so far. This is a great improvement over my previous model.

[PeterSD]

@PeterSD
from my files and zipped.
Hope this helps

Thank you tautech, I have to attend a meeting shortly but shall try the driver out late afternoon when I return .

I have unzipped the file and successfully loaded the driver. I ran EasyScopeX but the scope did not appear in the program (I did select USBTMC from the option menus when Add Device was selected).

I have the driver in a folder within 'my documents', Perhaps it should be placed elsewhere.

[tautech]

@PeterSD
Shouldn't matter where you put them providing Windows knows where they are.

Will have to get a SDS1000 series DSO out for further investigation of their default driver setup.
My 2000 series on bench is different.
Bear with me
Shouldn't be long.

SEE POST https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg569961/#msg569961

[PeterSD]

@PeterSD
Shouldn't matter where you put them providing Windows knows where they are.

Will have to get a SDS1000 series DSO out for further investigation of their default driver setup.
My 2000 series on bench is different.
Bear with me
Shouldn't be long.

Thank you for your help

[tautech]

@PeterSD
SDS1000 series connects no problem to the previous Easyscope3 after a simple install.(DSO not connected during install)
However Easyscope3 is no match for EasyscopeX for usability and functionality.

Yes it seems SDS1000 series connection is problematic to ES X.
Drivers accepted and has active/valid USB connection but DSO not seen by ES X.

But it needs sorting out with clear guidelines for a seamless trouble free install.

I'll point Jade at Siglent to this, he will have the answers.

SEE POST https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg569961/#msg569961