[BigClive] Inside a fake un-trippable circuit breaker

[CatalinaWOW]

There is no particular reason to chide China for this, all of us Western countries have at one time or another had people manufacture counterfeit goods. 

New laws are for the most part not needed.  Again most Western countries already have laws on the books.   

What is needed is enforcement.  There are a number of tried and true methods.  One is to have people in the affected industries report abuses to the authorities, who must then take appropriate action.  Another is to have government agencies sample products for sale and inspect them for compliance with various marking, copyright and patent violations.  Failures lead to penalties and increased sampling rate.

Enforcement lags because it costs money and because no one likes to point fingers at neighbors and business associates who are cutting corners.  These YouTube reveals are the mildest form of shaming enforcement, and are better than nothing, but not very effective.

[amyk]

looks like they just didn't bother fitting the rest of the innards... perhaps this would be a good opportunity for manufacturers to start popularising transparent housings? Fakes can still exist that way, but at least it would get rid of the really pathetic attempts like this one.

[Distinctly Average]

I purchased a camera from a reputable dealer here in the UK last year and it came shipped with an EU charger and a deathdapter. I complained to the company and to be fair they sorted it, replacing the charger with a genuine UK unit. After a chat is seem they use fulfilment warehouses where they package goods for shipping. Those warehouses also purchase the products on behalf of the retailer, this means that despite what the retailer specify, unscrupulous fulfilment companies are taking the piss and using grey imports and substituting components with illegal ones. It cannot be that hard to shut these companies down, but it seems as fast as one closes another opens. Hey all deal with thousands of product lines so I would not be surprised if these iffy breakers came via a similar route.

[MK14]

looks like they just didn't bother fitting the rest of the innards... perhaps this would be a good opportunity for manufacturers to start popularising transparent housings? Fakes can still exist that way, but at least it would get rid of the really pathetic attempts like this one.

I suspect the following would happen.
The same manufacturer, that made the dangerous/fake breaker, would just get colour printed paper, which looks just like the inside of some electronics, complete with mechanical bits, electronics and PCB, as necessary.
So, the transparent case, would have the printed paper, plus current shorting innards, hidden inside. To make it look genuine.

A bit like the current crop of 'fake' capacitors look like, in some videos. I.e. some tatty, second hand, recycled/old capacitor, is covered in some shiny/new looking, thin plastic wrapper, which is simply printed to look like a good quality capacitor. But it is simply a repackaged fake/old/recycled one.

[floobydust]

If these were fake handbags, phone cases, Fendi, Gucci, Louis Vuitton etc. the authorities i.e. Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) would be all over it.
Enforcement seems to depend on the money at stake, although fake space heaters were seized based on "intellectual property rights".

The laws are relatively useless because they are unenforced, it costs money to do inspections on thousands of items and the consequences are nothing but confiscated product.

[james_s]

looks like they just didn't bother fitting the rest of the innards... perhaps this would be a good opportunity for manufacturers to start popularising transparent housings? Fakes can still exist that way, but at least it would get rid of the really pathetic attempts like this one.

It wouldn't be the first time. There were at least two fatal airliner crashes involving Soviet planes where it was determined that roller bearings in the engines were manufactured without their full complement of rollers and the resulting engine failures caused in-flight fires leading to the total loss of the airframe and all aboard.

Unfortunately I think 99% of people when handed a transparent circuit breaker would not realize anything was missing. Even side by side it would probably take a relatively technical person to not just assume it was two different brands or something.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Unfortunately I think 99% of people when handed a transparent circuit breaker would not realize anything was missing. Even side by side it would probably take a relatively technical person to not just assume it was two different brands or something.

Makes you wonder about blob firmware, doesn't it?

[MK14]

Makes you wonder about blob firmware, doesn't it?

If it makes your device, start smoking, catch on fire, and then make a loud bang, as it explodes into millions of pieces. It probably was an example of 100% genuine firmware (made by FTDI).   

[helius]

The rule is always caveat emptor, and we forget it at our peril. When life gets too easy, The Gods of the Copybook Headings shall return.

I thought some countries had technicians that tested installed devices for electrical safety? (PAT test or something like that?) It should be quite easy to detect a faulty MCB and apply a sticker, no?

[MK14]

The rule is always caveat emptor, and we forget it at our peril. When life gets too easy, The Gods of the Copybook Headings shall return.

I thought some countries had technicians that tested installed devices for electrical safety? (PAT test or something like that?) It should be quite easy to detect a faulty MCB and apply a sticker, no?

But you're sort of 'victim blaming'.

Let's say someone bought a replacement, high rupture current fuse, for their multimeter, from the local electronics supplier (or via mail order). How would they be expected to know it was a fake fuse. Until it is too late, and they get injured, because it fails to break at the right time.
Assuming it is a fake which looks perfectly genuine, and the local supplier, was a generally trustworthy source of components.

You could test each one (fuses), but how would you have your cake (an unblown fuse) and eat it (an intact/working fuse) ?

You could give me a smart-alec answer. One could x-ray it, weight it very precisely, accurately check its resistance, capacitance and inductance, etc etc.
But really, the only true way of testing it, would be to actually blow it, by which time, it would be unusable.

I suppose you could buy multiple ones, and test some of them destructively, to make sure they are genuine. But that would be rather expensive.

[rsjsouza]

In the case of a circuit breaker, at least in the countries I lived they weren't available without the local agency approvals (which could bring some level of scrutiny). The case for caveat emptor is if the person actually equipped their entire house with breakers bought from an international marketplace, bypassing the local regulations. In this case, it is not "victim blaming" but idiocy and no amount of rules can prevent that.

Unfortunately that does not address the case where a person hires someone else to do the work, as there are too many curious people acting as handymen or general contractors. In this case, you would have to resort to recommendations from friends and neighbours.

A similar case can be made for the fuses, but it is obviously much harder to enforce (size, low cost, relative brands, etc). In an ideal world, the marketplace store should not have possession of a counterfeit fuse in the first place, but unfortunately that is not possible at all.

[wraper]

In the case of a circuit breaker, at least in the countries I lived they weren't available without the local agency approvals (which could bring some level of scrutiny). The case for caveat emptor is if the person actually equipped their entire house with breakers bought from an international marketplace, bypassing the local regulations. In this case, it is not "victim blaming" but idiocy and no amount of rules can prevent that.

Agency approval means nothing.  As I understand it was pulled out from Chinese generator. Fake circuit breaker had CCC+S safety approval on it, as it was made for Chinese market and model is a standard type used across many manufacturers there. If you are producing counterfeit, nothing prevents you from printing fake approval mark.

[bdunham7]

After a chat is seem they use fulfilment warehouses where they package goods for shipping. Those warehouses also purchase the products on behalf of the retailer, this means that despite what the retailer specify, unscrupulous fulfilment companies are taking the piss and using grey imports and substituting components with illegal ones.

If you sub out the core of your company operations because it is 'cheaper' and you don't ask why, you've sold out your customers.  Whining about how terrible other people are is missing the point.

[rsjsouza]

In the case of a circuit breaker, at least in the countries I lived they weren't available without the local agency approvals (which could bring some level of scrutiny). The case for caveat emptor is if the person actually equipped their entire house with breakers bought from an international marketplace, bypassing the local regulations. In this case, it is not "victim blaming" but idiocy and no amount of rules can prevent that.

Agency approval means nothing.

It may be easily counterfeit, but it is someone to point your fingers at especially if it is branded from a reputable manufacturer (Legrand, Siemens, Eaton, etc.). Certification and compliance are a big CYA operation.

[SilverSolder]

[...]
E.g. Someone on a news source in the UK, said they had bought a cheap battery and/or charger, for their expensive camera. It then (left to charge overnight, caught on fire and) burnt their house to the ground. They were furious and said that something should be done about it.

I.e. I don't think some of the general public understands the dangers of some of the cheap items available on ebay from abroad (usually), and other similar sales places on the internet.

Consumers are used to being "taken care of" by regulations that manufacturers have to comply with.

What government agency can you actually complain to if substandard goods is sold in the UK?

To make a change, a few sellers need to be made examples of (hit with some big fines) and it needs to make the news...

[MK14]

In the case of a circuit breaker, at least in the countries I lived they weren't available without the local agency approvals (which could bring some level of scrutiny). The case for caveat emptor is if the person actually equipped their entire house with breakers bought from an international marketplace, bypassing the local regulations. In this case, it is not "victim blaming" but idiocy and no amount of rules can prevent that.

Unfortunately that does not address the case where a person hires someone else to do the work, as there are too many curious people acting as handymen or general contractors. In this case, you would have to resort to recommendations from friends and neighbours.

A similar case can be made for the fuses, but it is obviously much harder to enforce (size, low cost, relative brands, etc). In an ideal world, the marketplace store should not have possession of a counterfeit fuse in the first place, but unfortunately that is not possible at all.

You're right, the actual situation is complicated. I.e. It is not Black and White, but some funny shade of grey. It also, varies widely, depending on what items you are talking about.

So, for me to say "Victim Blaming", earlier in the thread, is NOT that clear case.

An example, could be someone who is doing lots of DIY electronics repair/upgrading, to their home in the UK. They have counted that they need 5 mains sockets, 5 light switches, 5 circuit breakers, 5 reels of wire, 5 bulb holders, and 5 junction boxes (obviously I'm making this example up!).

So this member of the public, who wants to save lots of money (compared to paying for a proper electrician to do all the work), has the big shopping list of items, to buy.

They soon discover, it would cost (made up figures), hundreds of pounds to buy from their local DIY stores (but would have been safety approved types). So, they go to the local markets and perhaps ebay.
Because they discover they can get the entire list for a fraction of the cost.

I'm NOT 100% sure. But I suspect these hypothetical members of the public, DON'T necessarily (some might know), that those cheap markets and cheap sellers on ebay. Might be selling shoddy/unsafe, unapproved items.
So they may just end up buying them, without realising how potentially dangerous they can be.

That's why EVERYTHING available for UK buyers (and really the Western world), should be safety approved items. They shouldn't be able to just pop along to their local market (which IS covered by UK regulations, and is at least partially checked, from time to time), or buy unsafe items on ebay.

But in practice they can. So I don't have any easy/quick/realistic answers. Except to say, the range of potentially unsafe items for sale on ebay (foreign sellers), has got to huge numbers.

Also, some items seem to cause disputes, as to if they are unsafe or safe, in practice. A good example that comes to mind is those 'live', directly mains connect/live, internally heated, shower head, things.

Mains chargers and powerful rechargeable batteries, can be especially dangerous (electric shock (charger) and fire risks, both items). Yet members of the general public (in my experience), DON'T appreciate the potential dangers of such items.

tl;dr
This is obviously turning out to be a big and complicated subject area. Any change, will probably have to be made by governments round the world, rather than by us, engineers and other professions/hobbyists.
Or we would need to decide what needs to be fixed, and then campaign hard for the solution to be implemented.

[MK14]

Consumers are used to being "taken care of" by regulations that manufacturers have to comply with.

What government agency can you actually complain to if substandard goods is sold in the UK?

To make a change, a few sellers need to be made examples of (hit with some big fines) and it needs to make the news...

I agree, that is a significant part of the situation. I'm not sure about what UK agencies protect consumers. Because I probably or partially, use to know, and it was clearer, many decades ago.
But these days, because of big cuts and other reasons, some of the old/past organisations, have been partially or fully, run down (cuts) or even closed completely.
There have been some new ones, but they can have complicated acronyms in their names, and it can be difficult to establish, if it is something which is properly funded and authorized to protect people. Or something which was partially funded a long time ago, and has been closed or run out of cash, by now.

Brexit further muddies the water. I think/suspect that we were 'protected' by new EU organisations/institutions/regulations, but now we have left (Brexit), we are in this 'limbo' situation. Where nobody knows how the situation is going to pan out.
I.e. Are we, the UK, going to start our own organisations (Government run ones), to replace any missing EU functionality, as regards protecting consumers in the UK ?
Or will they rely on existing ones. Brexit seems to have left, many unanswered questions.

In practice, I would either contact the local "Trading Standards" organisation, and complain to them. E.g. Because of problems with a local shop. Or Google my problem, to find out who I need to contact.

Given that current/past EU rules and regulations, have already been put into the UK law books. For a while at least, we are effectively still under the EU.

[SilverSolder]

[...]
Brexit further muddies the water. I think/suspect that we were 'protected' by new EU organisations/institutions/regulations, but now we have left (Brexit), we are in this 'limbo' situation. Where nobody knows how the situation is going to pan out.
I.e. Are we, the UK, going to start our own organisations (Government run ones), to replace any missing EU functionality, as regards protecting consumers in the UK ?
Or will they rely on existing ones. Brexit seems to have left, many unanswered questions.
[...]

I'm sure that Agnes, 92, of Kent, considered all these things carefully before voting to dump the working generation in it...

Obviously one of the huge efficiencies of the EU single market is that 28-1 countries don't all have to do this on their own, duplicating this kind of work 28-1 times...

...As you say, just copying EU regulations is the only sane thing to do, until the brexiters figure out a way to float the entire island on pontoons and tow it to Asia? 

[themadhippy]

You're right, the actual situation is complicated. I.e. It is not Black and White, but some funny shade of grey. It also, varies widely, depending on what items you are talking about

The uk had the chance to make it black and white when part p was being discussed,one option was limiting the sale of  electrical accessory's  to  licensed personnel only,but pressure from the  diy chains put a stop to that idea.

[james_s]

The uk had the chance to make it black and white when part p was being discussed,one option was limiting the sale of  electrical accessory's  to  licensed personnel only,but pressure from the  diy chains put a stop to that idea.

As should be the case, people should absolutely have the right to do electrical work themselves. It's impossible to keep the problem rate to zero, case in point that defective wire that someone else mentioned, that made it through the official distribution chain and exactly the same thing could happen to circuit breakers or anything else. Limiting the sale to professionals would do nothing to fix that. In fact it would probably make it much worse because everyone who wants to DIY would buy the cheapest stuff direct from China and bypass the whole process rather than being able to walk into a store and buy what at least stands a reasonable chance of being properly made devices.

[wraper]

You're right, the actual situation is complicated. I.e. It is not Black and White, but some funny shade of grey. It also, varies widely, depending on what items you are talking about

The uk had the chance to make it black and white when part p was being discussed,one option was limiting the sale of  electrical accessory's  to  licensed personnel only,but pressure from the  diy chains put a stop to that idea.

UK is already ridiculous enough. You want to make it worse. https://twitter.com/mpsregentspark/status/974645778558980096

[themadhippy]

people should absolutely have the right to do electrical work themselves

if that was the case then fine,however the solution.part p ,restricts the  scope of work not only the diy'er can do,but also time served electricians who aint part of the cartel,an example of such work,changing a light fitting in a bathroom,that can only can only legally be changed by a part p registered sparks

[wraper]

people should absolutely have the right to do electrical work themselves

if that was the case then fine,however the solution.part p ,restricts the  scope of work not only the diy'er can do,but also time served electricians who aint part of the cartel,an example of such work,changing a light fitting in a bathroom,that can only can only legally be changed by a part p registered sparks

Wait till they take away your soldering iron, multimeter and oscilloscope.

[themadhippy]

UK is already ridiculous enough. You want to make it worse

so whats the real story behind that picture? yea at first glance it appears ridiculous,but  try  boarding a plane with any of those in your hand luggage

[wraper]

UK is already ridiculous enough. You want to make it worse

so whats the real story behind that picture? yea at first glance it appears ridiculous,but  try  boarding a plane with any of those in your hand luggage

Police robbed a handyman walking down the street? It's had nothing to do with airport or sort of. Look at hashtag.