Author Topic: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon  (Read 1327108 times)

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Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1675 on: August 18, 2013, 05:50:18 pm »
I'm particularly interested in current rating of it.
Another clue is the Switch's maximum current rating (see datasheet), which is 1.5A, so the coil's current rating is got to be less than that.

You can also try to scope the negative voltage peaks on the side of R40 connected to the IC. Now take 8.4V or whatever voltage you get on your PSU for this supply and subtract the scoped negative peak value. This should give you the voltage drop across this resistor. Ohms law should tell you what the current is during the negative peak value. Most of that current is going through L2.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 07:15:45 pm by TomC »
 

Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1676 on: August 18, 2013, 08:29:49 pm »
Looks like no one has 88 µH inductors... I've checked Farnell Export, Digikey, Mouser and Arrow. Of them, I only managed to find one which has same inductance on mouser, but turned out to be a common mode choke.

Anyway, I'll have to wait until I have a second scope available before I start playing with the inductor. It would be really nice to put a toroidal inductor there and get rid of its field, but if I take that route, I'll most likely have to pick a different but close value and make some prototype circuits with MC34063A to see how it works.
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1677 on: August 18, 2013, 09:14:42 pm »
Looks like no one has 88 µH inductors... I've checked Farnell Export, Digikey, Mouser and Arrow. Of them, I only managed to find one which has same inductance on mouser, but turned out to be a common mode choke.

Anyway, I'll have to wait until I have a second scope available before I start playing with the inductor. It would be really nice to put a toroidal inductor there and get rid of its field, but if I take that route, I'll most likely have to pick a different but close value and make some prototype circuits with MC34063A to see how it works.
I see what you mean about the availability of 88µH inductors. It seems that the standard value is 82µH. I wonder if the 88µH value is an ideal value used in the datasheet, I noticed that in many cases the available components have a tolerance of around ±20%, so it appears that the design has to tolerate a fairly wide range of potential inductance values. In any case, I think that a slightly lower inductance may have a little influence on the converter's maximum current output, so it may work at a slightly different duty cycle, but still give you the same output voltage. The output voltage is really set by the value of R33 and R35. I doubt that it will cause a catastrophic failure and fry the MC34063A, of course, you never know for sure until you try.

By the way, I saw a couple of datasheets for inductors of similar value and similar physical size, the current rating was 1A for an 82µH inductor slightly smaller than L2, and 1.9A for one slightly larger. I attached the datasheets where I saw that.
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1678 on: August 18, 2013, 10:15:43 pm »
AndrejaKo: Why not try this, wrap the 88 µH inductors with aluminum/cooper foil and connects this to GND. But do it for a short time! Just the time needed to see the effect.

Caution, it will get hot!



If you think that noise is coming from the negative voltage, why not use a battery, directly to the 7905.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 10:29:01 pm by Carrington »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1679 on: August 19, 2013, 04:55:30 am »
If not seen this before:

available from Owon hk download
and also here if Owon.hk sides download have problem.

Owon SDS series SCPI manual

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Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1680 on: August 19, 2013, 05:58:54 am »
If not seen this before:

available from Owon hk download
and also here if Owon.hk sides download have problem.

Owon SDS series SCPI manual
Thanks for this information! :-+

I noticed the new "SCPI Command Line" button on the Remote Control Panel of the 2.0.8.17 Oscilloscope software. However, when I try to use it emits an error message "SCPI is not support for the machine". I wonder if this is something they are still working on, or if it only works with the latest release scopes. Do you happen to know?
 

Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1681 on: August 19, 2013, 07:42:24 am »
There is also the Labview opearation cases for SDS series in Drivers Download Menu (Owon site). I haven't used the Labview before, but from what I now the Labview accepte the SCPI commands.

TomC, have you enable the "Continue Data Download" from the "Communication" Menu?

The pdf of SDS SCPI Protocol says:
The SCPI protocol of this product is based on USB port and LAN communication. Run our
software on PC, click to enter remote control, then click the SCPI command on the remoter
control interface to enable SCPI protocol and communicate through SCPI protocol.

(I couldn't to try because I haven't functional my scope, yet)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 07:49:29 am by lemon »
 

Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1682 on: August 19, 2013, 08:02:56 am »
AndrejaKo: Why not try this, wrap the 88 µH inductors with aluminum/cooper foil and connects this to GND. But do it for a short time! Just the time needed to see the effect.

Caution, it will get hot!



If you think that noise is coming from the negative voltage, why not use a battery, directly to the 7905.



I tried shielding the inductor with an aluminium can connected to ground, but it didn't help with the large peaks I'm getting.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1683 on: August 19, 2013, 08:44:30 am »
AndrejaKo: Why not try this, wrap the 88 µH inductors with aluminum/cooper foil and connects this to GND. But do it for a short time! Just the time needed to see the effect.

Caution, it will get hot!



If you think that noise is coming from the negative voltage, why not use a battery, directly to the 7905.



I tried shielding the inductor with an aluminium can connected to ground, but it didn't help with the large peaks I'm getting.

I have looked your some pictures but I'm some amount confused.

These highest peaks, looks like they are from -7.6V SMPS circuit.
Q1: What is real time interval between these peaks. (measured so that there is enough samplerate for avoid any possible aliasing and trigger mode of course Normal.)

Q2: What is -7.6V SMPS circuit switch timing.
(no need connect GND wire, just connect probe (10x!) tip to 34063A Pin 2)

Is it bursting or continuous cycling and what is timing (example 2-4 cycles, picture) but then if it is bursting with quite low period also burst period (picture). 


(example main flyback freq is around 43kHz)
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Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1684 on: August 19, 2013, 09:41:36 am »
Hopefully, I'll be able to post that data later today, I'm a bit out of time at the moment.

What I wanted to say it this:

I disconnected ground connection of the power switch and now my noise using the established testing procedure is 50 mV to 55 mV. Large peaks do remain and from what I can see, they are not all that affected by the disconnection.

One more thing I've noticed is that they depend on the input voltage. I got the battery is not enough warning and the large peaks completely disappeared immediately after that.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1685 on: August 19, 2013, 02:13:32 pm »
Here is picture from -7.6V SMPS.

This is "normal" in ok working PSU.
Powered by 230VAc

Connect probe to D12 kathode (same as 34063A pin 2)
Probe GND to GND
Probe 10x, scope 10x
Memory 100k
Horizontal speed 5us/div
Voltage 5V/div DC
Persistence 1s
Trig Auto, level 0mV, rising edge

There can see around 60kHz square wave with some overshoots.
Frequency and duty is jittering some amount as see in image. (it is normal)
This is continuous waveform  without markable changes over time in level or frequancy/duty if circuit works normally.  There is NOT any low frequency components what may relate to long periodic high peaks.

It is good to note that these "peaks" in some slow horizontal speed images. (with long random period time) they may be false.)

It was not "without reason" when I have told that it NEED analyze with synchronize method. Not so that trigger channel is same as noise "image" channel.  Why: Becouse there is lot of noise peak sources. They are not synch with each others. Some of them use timing jitter for share noise components to more wide spectrum. 
Of course some times there is two (or more) peak what in some random time point occurs exactly same time we see  sum of these two peaks, if more quite high peaks randomly happend same time we can see "super peak". There happend lot of this kind of interference as we look this "total noise".
For this reason we need go to inside this spread spectrum noise and take lock to each separate noise source, one after one to look.
After then we know what they are and what is real and what are two or more source produced sum. In other way, we see chaos and we can not trust what we see. (if look this total noise and then try use itself to analyze it. We can see lot of mix products and we can not know what is real and what is just some kind of interference "peaks" and then loose time if find in circuit what produce this high peak. (if this peak is this kind of "chost")

One method for analyze it is just go inside this chaos and try lock every separate true noise source (we know these typical sources in this construction)  and this locking to separate signals can do with this 2 probe method very very easy and after this we know what are these original real noise "peaks" and stop caring possible random peaks what are perhaps only "chosts" (sum of peaks when they randomly meet each others and produce image of random high peak).

I do not try tell or claim it is just this in this individual case, but it need keep in mind that it is possible - so that do not try find unreal chosts.

Perhaps there is these high peaks what have long and random period time but - keep in mind also this theory what also is possible. 

(last spring I use my time more than two hundred lab hours with this case. I have been totally in "forest" before I regognize that nearly only way analyze it is really separate these noises and stop looking this total noise figure - and how to do it.  Very very simple. Use two channel, other for lock and other for look signal.)

And more. This noise channel (not synch channel). There travel now high amount of random noises, but some part there is locked to trig point. Now it may be difficult or some small peak cases nearly impossible  look this becouse eye need care only this locked part of noisy trace.
After locked (stable trig) this  (trig) channel can turn even off if like. (example, if CH 2 is used for trig, after have adjusted trigger as need, CH2 can turn off if do not want momentarily  look  this channel blinking there. It still can use for trig if it is OFF))

If it is difficult to look locked signal middle of screen when there run randomly lot of high and fast signal over it.

These others are random, only this one what we want look now is not random related to trig time position.

Oh... why we have average mode. It can help in some cases lot of. It can use for filter out these others and now really can see what part is related to source where we get trig.

In this method, trig channel sensitivity need keep so low and probe need go so close to source what we inspect that it do not pick-up any other signals what may disturb reliable trig and give false results. 



Here normal D12 kathode (ref GND)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 02:48:35 pm by rf-loop »
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1686 on: August 19, 2013, 03:31:18 pm »
There is also the Labview opearation cases for SDS series in Drivers Download Menu (Owon site). I haven't used the Labview before, but from what I now the Labview accepte the SCPI commands.

TomC, have you enable the "Continue Data Download" from the "Communication" Menu?

The pdf of SDS SCPI Protocol says:
The SCPI protocol of this product is based on USB port and LAN communication. Run our
software on PC, click to enter remote control, then click the SCPI command on the remoter
control interface to enable SCPI protocol and communicate through SCPI protocol.

(I couldn't to try because I haven't functional my scope, yet)
Yes, that's the only way the control panel can be initiated anyway. But the PDF on SCPI is pretty new, so I hope maybe the trouble is that the scope's firmware release or the Oscilloscope software release needs to catch up with it.
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1687 on: August 19, 2013, 03:38:41 pm »
One more thing I've noticed is that they depend on the input voltage. I got the battery is not enough warning and the large peaks completely disappeared immediately after that.
That's an interesting observation, which may be further evidence that something goes wrong with the -7.6V converter when the input voltage increases. Like rf-loop suggests, it would be a good idea to scope the duty cycle. It may be very low with normal input voltage (8.4V), causing large sporadic current spikes as the feedback loop tries to correct its output voltage.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1688 on: August 19, 2013, 07:37:11 pm »
It may be very low with normal input voltage (8.4V), causing large sporadic current spikes as the feedback loop tries to correct its output voltage.

Did you read this my last message with image. (there is now my bad english also so that I can not very clearly tell what I mean. It need also keep in mind possibility that these special high random peaks are not real. Becouse this is possible in theory and also seen in practice it need take one possibility also in this case as long as know what it really is. 

If look total noise trace where is sum of noises what travel between different GND points and partially changed differential using probe as used when gonnected to GND. What we see. We see sum of separate sources generated signals what we see as "noise". 

Now, if think situation we have only one source there, example generating fast "peak". Lets simplify more. If there is example 10ns constant level peaks say example 10us period and 100mV high. Ok, we see these pulses. We can now use low horizontal speeds and get just nice fat trace even if we turn peak mode on. Just nice band without any peaks what are peaking over this noise band. 

But what happend if now add other pulses (peaks) say example other 10ns wide 100mV peaks  and timing so that they arrive allways example 50ns different time (syncronized so that always this timing - syncronized signals).  We see now double amount of nice pulses dependent of horizontal speed. Now we see two pulses. Then we change horizontal speed to very slow and perhaps also turn peak mode on. Agen we see just nice fat band and level is same as before and no any special peaks.

What happend if we now connect off these signals syncronization and they are nearly as before but some amount different freq. Mostly they are different position and we still see this nice fat band without separate peaks. But...wait a moment.. oops, now I just see one or two short 200mV peaks.   If frequencies are very very close and  they only overlapp each others more or less we see our "noise band" vary between 100mV and 200mV. If they only randomly or hit each others we see just randomly peaks between 100mV and 200mV level.

Of course in practice this is much much more complex how these separate sources "noises" interfere and this is what we see - sum of these "noise" signals. 
There IS this kind of short high peaks and these noise peaks are more or less short  but there is many sources and more fun there is also variable frequency SMPS circuits and many of these noise "peaaks" are short "oscillations".  SDS7102 is some amount too slow scope for analyzing this noise but with right methods it is well enough for regognize sources and analyze if modification give better or worse result (and least this need method where can detect individual source made "noise")
If do not use right methods for analyzing we are perhaps just hunting "ghosts" (or not, but we do not know it) 

But more fun come if take this same kind of simplified case but, now, there is agen these two signals but one level is 100mV and other level is 50mV. Then we see 100mV noise band with low horizontal speed... but now if we look more deep we find there 50mV peaks and 100mV peaks and if they run with different frequency... there appear third peak 150mV.  But now if we know only what we see there we see 50mV, 100mV and some random 150mV peaks.

Lets start find curcuit what produce just these 150mV peaks becouse we think this is more important becouse this is most high and very odd random peaking just as some "failure".  We do not find never circuit what produce this highest and random peaks becouse no one do it.
It is "interference." (in this example).

It disappear just if we stop these 100mV or 50mV peaks (or both) and it go more low if we reduce other of these lower peaks.  Also it disappear if frequencies go so that they do not appear same time or they appear so that 99.9% of random peaks fall to scope dead time. Perhaps we need collect 1 day continuous data we can hit this peak if it is rare random. No matter if trigger is set if it is rare and we have auto trig on becouse auto trig generate trig mostly before this rare peak occur in time what is ok for trig to it.

So, before can be sure, there need keep eyes and mind open and avoid hunting "ghosts".

I have looked many times this gif animation and there may be "thousend" reason for it, but one is this possible interference (including also scope itself features with dead and displayed time and trigger)

But,  also there may be failure in 7.6V SMPS circuit what produce some odd things in some cases and dependent of this circuit input voltage.

So, this circuit is good to look how it works. Battery lowest is near 6V before battery module shut off  its output and highest is around 8.5V and it need work normally in this range.

In normally working SDS with primary PSU voltage around 8.4V this -7.6V have near 50% duty and around 60kHz (center freg).
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 08:43:24 pm by rf-loop »
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1689 on: August 19, 2013, 08:07:58 pm »
Interesting, but ...
Wow, what a mess.  :)



Today I received the EMV35, but until a few days I can not do anything.
I am also waiting for other things.
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1690 on: August 19, 2013, 10:16:23 pm »
Did you read this my last message with image. (there is now my bad english also so that I can not very clearly tell what I mean. It need also keep in mind possibility that these special high random peaks are not real. Becouse this is possible in theory and also seen in practice it need take one possibility also in this case as long as know what it really is. ......
Yes, I read it, and I agree there is a chance these are "ghosts" as you put it. I also understood what you meant the first time I read it, so I don't think that your English is hard to understand. :)

For one thing, the R7731 uses a jittering oscillator, so its frequency and all the harmonics are shifting back and forth, therefore increasing the possibility that noise from different sources will occasionally coincide and create spikes equal to their sum. So yes, there is a definite possibility that what you see is not generated by a single source.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 10:19:24 pm by TomC »
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1691 on: August 19, 2013, 10:28:32 pm »
Today I received the EMV35, but until a few days I can not do anything.
I am also waiting for other things.
Great! :-+
I'm curious to see how spraying the cabinet with conductive paint will affect the radiated noise. Were you able to get the transparent EMI film as well?
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1692 on: August 20, 2013, 06:07:48 am »
If not seen this before:

available from Owon hk download
and also here if Owon.hk sides download have problem.

Owon SDS series SCPI manual

Owon official answer today.
This feature is not useable now in current version, it is coming in next version what is available soon. (estimated availability next month)
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

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Offline Clint

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1693 on: August 20, 2013, 08:32:21 am »
Yes, this is the scope featured in this thread. If you decide to buy it verify that the serial number is 1324xxx or higher, that means it was built on the 24th week of 2013 which translates to around June. During that time frame, according to the information we have, Owon began shipping scopes with new PSU and adapter boards that considerably reduced the GND noise issue.


Just thought I could add this info about serial numbers of latest versions:

I mailed the supplier on ebay to check I would get a late low noise version and got this reply:

====================
I am sorry but I think this is mistake on EEBLVD, I just checked with manufacturer, our serial # is 1319XXX, it is new version as well ( please e-mail to sales01@owon.com.cn to verify what I am saying if you doubt that ) , 19 not means 19 weeks ( we doubled checked with manufacturer) we warranty you get 2013 June low-noise version ( you can check with manufacturer for the serial #  ), for example the serial# SDS71021319652 or later version.
====================

So any I thought I would email OWON and got this reply:

====================
Hello
 
   From the SDS71021319xxx

 
Best Regards!
 
2013-08-20
Jason chen
FUJIAN LILLIPUT OPTOELECTRONICS TECHNOLOGY CO.,LTD.
The mansion of optoelectronics hengsan road, Lantian industrial zone ,zhangzhou.fujian.China
TEL?0596?2130430?802
Email: sales@owon.com.cn
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
g33K5 L1k3 80085
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1694 on: August 20, 2013, 10:37:04 am »
Great! :-+
I'm curious to see how spraying the cabinet with conductive paint will affect the radiated noise. Were you able to get the transparent EMI film as well?
The electric field must be attenuated (~55dB), but the magnetic field is likely to remain intact.
So I do not expect a big improvement,let's see the result.

http://www.adafruit.com/products/1309#Description
This sheet is the most affordable I've seen, but is small... I found it on other sites but the same size.
There is another EMI sheet, with a thin metal mesh invisible to the eye, and a high attenuation. The problem is the price ~ 80€.
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1695 on: August 20, 2013, 12:38:16 pm »
Hi guys! Some things took more time than I expected, so I'm a bit late.

First, the duty cycle on the negative regulator is pretty large. I'm currently uploading four pictures. Pictures 1-3 all show in various timebases how a single peak looks like on pin 2 of the regulator. Picture 4 shows how duty cycle looks like.
So the frequency is around 62 kHz and the duty cycle is large, often in the 75% to 85% range. There are also these periods of ringing that are some 80 ms away one from another.

Unfortunately, the peaks are too far away in time for me to capture two in detail on a single scope shot.
 

Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1696 on: August 20, 2013, 01:14:08 pm »
AndrejaKo, if I compare yours 4th capture (duty cycle) with the rf-loop's, seems that your 34063A doesn't work well.

@ Clint = thanks for the info, we had wrong information about this. The major point is that from s/n 1319XXX and then, Owon corrects the gnd noise.
 

Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1697 on: August 20, 2013, 01:42:00 pm »
Well I know that. It's just that I need to determine the reason why. I've had similar results when experimenting due to both coil and circuit arrangement. It's not a problem for me to change the chip, I have several ON Semi 34063As available, but I'd like to be sure that it is in fact the chip that's causing the issue. I also tried replacing the capacitor with an 1000 µF low ESR one (NIC NRSG), but it didn't help on this front, so I'm returning the old one for now.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 02:09:58 pm by AndrejaKo »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1698 on: August 20, 2013, 01:57:43 pm »
AndrejaKo, if I compare yours 4th capture (duty cycle) with the rf-loop's, seems that your 34063A doesn't work well.

@ Clint = thanks for the info, we had wrong information about this. The major point is that from s/n 1319XXX and then, Owon corrects the gnd noise.

First sidenote: I have 1303xxx in stock and just as arrived from factory. And not this bad "GND noise" issue. Just normal.
So.....  (but yes, I know why and I know why Owon ask some (still guite short) delay for shipping this lot ;)  )
-------------

AndrejaKo:

Something is really wrong in -7.6V circuit. This need repair before any other things. And when repair this, also this circuit need small mods. 
(are there noise what disturb 34063A?  or some failed component.?)

Specially these rise to middle way and  then flat and soon then continue rise to full level.
Then also these short full level pulses...  "serious arrhythmia"
Example third image middle (trigger position).


I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 

Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1699 on: August 20, 2013, 02:06:43 pm »
Well I already tried with capacitor replacement and it didn't help. It's not a too great problem for me to replace the IC, if it's suspect. Coil could be a bigger problem. The closest I can find easily available it 100 µH. From TomC's responses, I came to understand that a lower number should be looked upon as a replacement, but the next lowest I can easily find is 10 µH.
 


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