Author Topic: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon  (Read 1326852 times)

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Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1750 on: August 22, 2013, 11:19:47 pm »
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1751 on: August 23, 2013, 04:14:21 am »
First one thing I've noticed: With new regulator, both regulator and coil run much cooler than before. Previously I couldn't hold my finger next to them because of heat. Now they're just very hot, but not burning hot.

I did some scoping on the timing capacitor itself and its waveform is very noisy and jittery. According to the scope's frequency measurement, the frequency is always changing. It's usually around 48 kHz, but can go as high as 60 kHz sometimes.  I'm attaching image with infinite persistence. Another image which I found interesting is when I probes the pin 2 and pin 3 at the same time. It seems that there are huge bursts of noise on pin 3 when pin 2 is high.


Should I try changing the capacitor? It seems like a polyester capacitor to me, but from what I heard they should be pretty good.

 I can easily obtain ceramic multilayer capacitors of same capacitance and tolerance with NP0 dielectric and try with them, to see if it's the capacitor.
I looked at these waveforms some more to try to come up with some kind of plausible scenario that explains what I see.

I think that the bursts when pin 2 is high are just the result of common mode noise interaction between the two probes, I don't know if you had each probe individually grounded, but if you didn't, that could have enhanced this interaction. This assessment is partly based on the fact that the first capture doesn't show these noise bursts. In addition, the same noise burst can be seen on the pin 2 waveform on a scale matching the V/div setting for that channel.

The one thing I find troubling is the irregularity of the duty cycle, and I'm just going to write what I'm thinking as I try to analyze why.

The large spike at the beginning of the capacitor's discharge cycle coincides with pin 2 going low, but it's not always the same size. It's size seems to depend on the length of time pin 2 remains high. I believe this spike represents D12 turning on due to L2's collapsing field and as a result charging EC8 to correct the output voltage. But why isn't it consistent.

I'm going to leave that aside for a second and look at what seems right. Pin 2 is supposed to go high during the charge time of the capacitor and nowhere else. It goes high when the output voltage has dropped a little as sensed by the IC's pin 5. This seems to be happening as it should, at some point during the charge cycle of C6 the output voltage drops a little bit and Bam, pin 2 goes high. In addition pin2 is supposed to go low at the beginning of C6's discharge cycle, and nowhere else, and it does that correctly too.

Back to what doesn't seem right. When pin 2 goes high late during C6's charge cycle, it goes off where it should (at the beginning of the discharge cycle), but the spike marking D12's turn on is not there, and pin 2 comes back on early during the next charge cycle. Why?

The only explanation I can think of is that EC8 didn't get enough charge and a voltage drop was detected by pin 5 again. Why?

A couple things I can think of, L2's collapsing field wasn't enough to forward bias D12 and charge EC8. Alternatively, D12's forward voltage is abnormal or inconsistent and fails to conduct and charge EC8 properly sometimes.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 04:16:04 am by TomC »
 

Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1752 on: August 23, 2013, 10:44:38 am »
Please, if you can try to make this changes.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/msg265881/#msg265881

I did the modifications and I got some improvement. The peaks went some 80 mV down.

Also would SR110 be a good replacement for SR160, if it turns out that the diode is broken? It has a bit higher forward voltage, but on the other hand, it has a bit lower capacitance.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 11:22:16 am by AndrejaKo »
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1753 on: August 23, 2013, 11:12:07 am »
Please, if you can try to make this changes.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/msg265881/#msg265881

I did the modifications and I got some improvement. The peaks went some 80 mV down.

Although it has improved, but there is still too much noise. Why? ...

OK. Have your adapter board this inductance (red)?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/msg265555/#msg265555

If not, look for one, should be the same value as used by the DC/DC to generate the 5.6V.
Another option is a big ferrite bead (with very low r at DC and high z at 100MHz).

Please solder C45 in the place where was C36.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 11:23:31 am by Carrington »
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1754 on: August 23, 2013, 12:26:26 pm »
Before mod this area of board, look to the datasheet of AOZ1094AI dc-dc convertor that produce the 5.6V.

Owon makes some adaptations from Ver. 3.0 to Ver. 3.2 Look at the attachment photo (left is 3.2, right is 3.0 version).

At the version 3.2 corrects the badly cutting of gnd that previous was made (point 1). Removed the smd capacitor C36 (point 2), adding a second inductor 5.6uH with some smd decoupling capacitors (point 3).
The changes was few and very easy to make but is not so simple, because at the version 3.0 the output of 5.6V divided at two parts, left to power the dc/dc convertor for led backlight, right to power the mainboard.
For this reason, needs to playing someone with any values of the second inductor.
Owon at ver. 3.0 after the production had some mod with adding by the hand, a 10uH inductor without any decoupling capacitors. It was enouph? No.

Additional, needs a more investigation about how react the turning of diode D127 to the output noise.

I had start to play with these before burn the aoz1094 and I am waiting for this, still!

 

Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1755 on: August 23, 2013, 01:19:54 pm »
@Carrington
My board does not have that inductor. The best ferrite I can find locally right now is this: http://uk.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fastron/06H-751X-00/?qs=M6QbaWWGTbRusNci/XxFMA== Would that be good enough? I'll move the electrolytic and report back.

@lemon
I'm sorry, I don't understand your last sentence...
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1756 on: August 23, 2013, 01:28:36 pm »
My board does not have that inductor. The best ferrite I can find locally right now is this:
http://es.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fastron/06H-751X-00
Is not valid, the maximum current is only one amp. 5A at least -> http://www.coilcraft.com/mss1278.cfm
But better use a ferrite bead: http://www.digikey.es/product-detail/en/HI2220T101R-10/240-2431-1-ND/806791, and make a "PI filter" with decoupling capacitors.

I'll move the electrolytic and report back.
Change C45(ceramic),  not C44 (electrolytic).
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 01:42:01 pm by Carrington »
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1757 on: August 23, 2013, 01:48:07 pm »
If these peaks (yellow) are around ~ 100MHz with the PI filter should attenuate. Is likely that the noise reach 50mV max.
But as lemon says, more improvements are needed, 50mV is too.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 01:52:45 pm by Carrington »
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Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1758 on: August 23, 2013, 01:58:36 pm »
Sorry, looks like I misread what yoy wrote about the capacitor.

Unfortunately, I can't find any ferrites that "advanced" here and import isn't the easiest thing (for example Digikey wants $120 for shipping).

Best thing I can get here would be a coil on toroidal base, for example Talema DPO--5.0-47. It's 47 µH, 5 A with resistance of 0.043 ohm. I'm not sure if I could actually attach it to the adapter board, since it's quite large and heavy.
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1759 on: August 23, 2013, 02:01:13 pm »
Have you considered the optional filter shown in the MC datasheet:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/msg278699/#msg278699

Additionally you can put another pi filter, look at attachments.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 02:19:05 pm by Carrington »
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Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1760 on: August 23, 2013, 02:04:30 pm »
Sorry, looks like I misread what yoy wrote about the capacitor.

Unfortunately, I can't find any ferrites that "advanced" here and import isn't the easiest thing (for example Digikey wants $120 for shipping).

Best thing I can get here would be a coil on toroidal base, for example Talema DPO--5.0-47. It's 47 µH, 5 A with resistance of 0.043 ohm. I'm not sure if I could actually attach it to the adapter board, since it's quite large and heavy.

Wow $120...
No electronic stores near you? As tme, farnell, rs or other.

Very big, and not valid: http://www.tme.eu/es/details/dpu047a5/choques-de-anilla/talema/dpo-50-47/
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 02:16:49 pm by Carrington »
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Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1761 on: August 23, 2013, 02:29:18 pm »
I have local electronic stores (that's where I'm buying all  of my components normally), but the stuff they have is usually very old. They are still mostly in the through-hole era and equipment for switch-mode power supplies isn't all that common here, especially if SMD or high currents are needed.

There are some distributors for say RS Components or Farnell etc. but they usually don't want to work with individuals at all and I don't have a company. Also from what I hear, companies here often import all the components themselves and skip local distributors completely. For a company, shipping costs and import fees aren't that bad, but for an individual it's difficult. Also there's the "culture shock". For example sometime last year a Farnell representative called me. He said that he was doing market research. One thing that was difficult for me to explain is that it's much cheaper to import things if they come over regular mail. For example, if I have over 50€ order coming via a courier, then I need to pay "forwarding" fees which are usually flat are usually 40€ to 60€ depending on the company doing that (and courier chooses the company) in addition to the regular VAT and customs. If the package is coming via post office, then they do that part and it usually costs just a couple of percents of shipment value.


Anyway enough off-topic for now! The location for that Pi filter is interesting. I'll see if I can somehow mount a ferrite there. I'll also measure the  -7.6 V current and then pick a ferrite that can work with it.
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1762 on: August 23, 2013, 02:46:15 pm »
I understand...  :(

You know, all this is bullshit, and the guilty is only OWON.
As we know the warranty does not cover this issue, but they also are reluctant to sell the adapter board, I have no idea why (anyone who says that this is not true then is a liar). Owon only support payment via transfer, Why? The bank earns more than the cost the two boards.
All this is ridiculous...

Or are all drunk or they think that are the owners. What is happening there?...

Sorry for my English.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 03:04:24 pm by Carrington »
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Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1763 on: August 23, 2013, 02:51:14 pm »
Also would SR110 be a good replacement for SR160, if it turns out that the diode is broken? It has a bit higher forward voltage, but on the other hand, it has a bit lower capacitance.
I took a look at the data sheet and I think it should work.
 

Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1764 on: August 23, 2013, 02:54:01 pm »
@Carrington
My board does not have that inductor. The best ferrite I can find locally right now is this: http://uk.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fastron/06H-751X-00/?qs=M6QbaWWGTbRusNci/XxFMA== Would that be good enough? I'll move the electrolytic and report back.

@lemon
I'm sorry, I don't understand your last sentence...

Before I burned my AOZ1094 I had bought from Farnell Export some inductors from 4.7-10 (>5A) to play with filtering at the second inductor. I think that the Farnell Export send to your country. Delivery is 2-3 days and the shipping is only a Freight Charge (UPS) about 4.5 pounds +VAT and nothing all. I can give you some links if you interesting.

Probably you meant the turn of diode?
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1765 on: August 23, 2013, 02:54:58 pm »
@lemon
I'm sorry, I don't understand your last sentence...
Lemon had a mishap about a week ago and burnt the chip he mentions, he's still waiting for a replacement part to fix his scope.
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1766 on: August 23, 2013, 02:58:39 pm »
@Carrington
My board does not have that inductor. The best ferrite I can find locally right now is this: http://uk.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fastron/06H-751X-00/?qs=M6QbaWWGTbRusNci/XxFMA== Would that be good enough? I'll move the electrolytic and report back.

@lemon
I'm sorry, I don't understand your last sentence...

Before I burned my AOZ1094 I had bought from Farnell Export some inductors from 4.7-10 (>5A) to play with filtering at the second inductor. I think that the Farnell Export send to your country. Delivery is 2-3 days and the shipping is only a Freight Charge (UPS) about 4.5 pounds +VAT and nothing all. I can give you some links if you interesting.

Probably you meant the turn of diode?
Sorry Lemon, you and me must have been typing together, I didn't see you on the list of people viewing the subject and thought you had gone on break. Speaking about breaks, I'm going to take one now and go for a walk! :)
 

Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1767 on: August 23, 2013, 03:15:42 pm »
@lemon
Well if the shipping is that low on Farnell Export (or somewhere in that range), then that would be great. What had me concerned is that when I try to order something from them, it tells me that I'll get shipping costs at a later date and that reminds me of saying "if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it". I'd appreciate links for the inductors!
 

Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1768 on: August 23, 2013, 06:36:38 pm »
Before 2-3 years, Farnell has another politics about exports, the total charging was bigger ... 11GBP +VAT.

I don't know if their politic depended about your region. The only minus about Farnell, is that they don't accept Payment by Paypal, only Visa/Mastercard and have the limit of 20GBP for odering.

Here is the links:
A range of inductors with 5-8A
Personally, I took the series of CoilCraft, look at Order Codes 2289056, 2289070, 2289071 e.t.c
http://export.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=2289056
 

Offline Carrington

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« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 07:03:51 pm by Carrington »
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1770 on: August 23, 2013, 07:18:27 pm »
Carrington the max DC Resistance "plays" with the value of inductor.
For example if you see the max DC Resistance of 2289070 (5.6uH) has 0.0258...somewhere to 50mV, but do you believe that Owon used better inductors than that?
Another, the size of inductors that Owon uses, are very small.
The second inductors (this was adding by the hand at some Ver. 3.0) is very small 6-7mm almost. It can;t to be 5A inductor with this size!
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1771 on: August 23, 2013, 07:25:48 pm »
If owon done it wrong us too?
Do not have Farnell SMD ferrite bead with 6 mohm and 5A?
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1772 on: August 23, 2013, 07:39:00 pm »
Look at the 2292389... is it OK?
It is the only that it have 0.006 Ohm
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1773 on: August 23, 2013, 07:41:27 pm »
Look at the 2292389... is it OK?
It is the only that it have 0.006 Ohm
Perfect.  :-+
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1685727.pdf
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Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #1774 on: August 23, 2013, 08:27:13 pm »
AndrejaKo: This remind you to anything?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 08:32:23 pm by Carrington »
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