Author Topic: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC  (Read 273326 times)

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Offline thinkfat

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #600 on: September 14, 2020, 08:04:32 am »
Update on item #561: root cause of OCXO temperature jumps

Contrary to what I first believed the root cause for the OCXO temperature jumps was, it is not caused by the USB power connections (+5, GND or shield), but the data lines (D- and D+). I figured this out by using a break-out board contraption after I isolated the +5V line earlier.
 
If either one or both of the data lines are connected, both temperature measurements in the Lars report jump by about 0.5 degrees up when connected and down when not.

I can't explain that yet, can anybody?  :-//

Where's that Arduino, in the box with the rest of the GPSDO? Maybe it just consumes more power with USB connected. Maybe connecting the USB lines has an influence on the voltage reference for the ADC. Can you provide an external reference?
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Offline tonyalbus

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #601 on: September 14, 2020, 08:38:00 am »
I took the time today to make two of the modifications imo suggested:
Quote
1. 78xx are the poorest performers in terms of TC and noise, it could be the fluctuations come from there (I would replace the 7808 with something better)
2. pot trimmer - I would avoid it, large TC of resistance and of wiper contact
3. resistors around the EFC input - should be low TC ones
4. LM35 - with longer wires put a "68-82ohm ser 10u MLCC" between its output and gnd (close to its pins).

Instead of using the 78L08 as the basis for the 4V OCXO reference voltage divider, I'm now using an LM4040 4.096V shunt. (fed through a 3K9 resistor from the 8V to get a 1mA current)
The result is so remarkable it is beyond belief! Gone are the oscillations and the instability. If your OCXO does not have a reference voltage out, make sure you use a real reference. I'll show some results later.

I also did 4, but there is little change however. I think I'm going to be using a filter in software later on. I don't think the current variations are going to help if I invoke the temperature compensation.

I'll do 2 and 3 if/when I go to a pcb layout. Right now I'm still playing and experimenting. Yesterday I got my CTI OC5SC25 OCXO, still fitted on the original pcb that was cut from the original. After de-soldering, a quick test showed it to be working, so I'll have another one that I can play with.

More later

Thank you very much for your insights imo!  :clap:

PS: it turned out that I was using a different setting for my measurement. The result with the reference is not that spectacular, but definitely a significant improvement.

Hi Guys, one of you have the datasheet of the CTI OC5SC25 ..or thee connections... it seems hard to find.
Thanks,
Tony
Electronics enthusiast, TEA and Radio Amateur (PE1ONS)
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Offline Dbldutch

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #602 on: September 14, 2020, 08:53:28 am »
@thinkfat:
All three of my GPSDO's (all electronics including the Arduino Nano) are inside an aluminum enclosure. The Oscilloquartz GPSDO enclosure is inside a plastic enclosure, and that is where the Raspberry Pi and the temperature sensor and fan is also.

However, I see this effect on all three of my GPSDO's.
I currently do not believe that the regulated 8V power applied to the Arduino plays a role, and neither do I believe that the onboard 5V regulator is the culprit. However the USB to serial FT232RL chip provides the 3V3 supply and that may cause the issue.

I do not know enough about the Arduino architecture, but I also suspect the Arduino internal reference used for the ADC's. Unfortunately I do not know from what voltage it is internally driven from.

It would take some serious surgery to change to an external reference and calibrate everything so I'm holding off on that idea, however good it is.

This must be an issue related to the Arduino Nano, and not related to Lars' hardware.

As a minimum, we now know the cause of the effect on the temperature, and what causes the jumps on the DAC.

 
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Offline Dbldutch

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #603 on: September 14, 2020, 09:13:00 am »
After I put my Oscilloquartz based GPSDO inside a plastic container, and regulated the inside temperature with a fan, I am very happy with the results.

In the picture you can see the Trimble and Bliley based GPSDO's in their aluminum enclosures. The same enclosure for the Oscilloquartz is inside the plastic container.

There is a 30mm 5V fan high in the back of the plastic enclosure, and that is driven by an DS18B20 temperature sensor through a script on the Raspberry Pi, that is also inside the container. The RPi also logs the Lars' report and uses a wireless connection to mail me the results. You can see the 5 holes on the front panel where fresh air is sucked in. The air flow is only over the top of the electronics inside, while the GPSDO has bubble wrap insulation and is located on the bottom. The air flow does not strike the GPSDO.

I'm using a proportional PWM signal to drive the fan, and it keeps the temperature inside the enclosure at 33 degrees and within .2 degrees. The ambient temperature sensor inside the GPSDO enclosure is stable at 52 degrees, and the temperature sensor inside the isolation box around the OCXO is now also stable at 65 degrees, both within half a degree Celsius. I think I have finally isolated the temperature effects on the DAC, although the room temperature changes have been moderate the last few days.

The next step is to add a P(I?)D controller function to control the fan even better with larger swings of the room temperature, and I have ordered two more 30mm fans for the other two enclosures. I have high hopes that if I can control the ambient temperatures inside the GPSDO enclosures better, I can also largely eliminate room temperature effects on the DAC.



« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 09:17:48 am by Dbldutch »
 
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Offline Mike99

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #604 on: September 14, 2020, 06:04:51 pm »
Bargain of the week. I bought this OCXO on eBay for just £10 from a local test equipment supplier. I don't think they knew what it was, as it was advertised simply as a 10MHz oscillator and has never been used  ;D ;D. Sadly they don't have any more ...



Anyway, here is the phase noise specification from the data sheet. Can anyone interpret this for me please? Is it a reasonable performance for a GPSDO?



Mike
 

Offline 0xFFF0

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #605 on: September 14, 2020, 06:11:17 pm »
The last Vectron from ebay was defective.
 

Offline Mike99

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #606 on: September 15, 2020, 09:36:56 am »
The last Vectron from ebay was defective.

Oh I think I've got a good one. It tunes up to 10MHz at exactly half the reference voltage, and after 12 hours the frequency had moved by 10ppb. The spec is 1ppb/day after 72 hours so we shall see.

Mike
 

Offline 0xFFF0

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #607 on: September 15, 2020, 12:58:37 pm »
The last Vectron from ebay was defective.

Oh I think I've got a good one. It tunes up to 10MHz at exactly half the reference voltage, and after 12 hours the frequency had moved by 10ppb. The spec is 1ppb/day after 72 hours so we shall see.

Mike

Did you heat insulate it?

I have a nice OCXO for you:
https://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv336m.pdf
 ;D
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #608 on: September 15, 2020, 01:08:52 pm »
If anybody sees any decen't new reliable 10 MHz OCXOs for sale inexpensively, not equipment pulls, please post them and what you know about them.

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline FriedLogic

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #609 on: September 15, 2020, 02:19:52 pm »
I'm currently trying to build myself an RFS from an Efratom LPRO-101 rubidium frequency standard which means mounting it in an enclosure where I can stabilise the base plate temperature and compensate for the effects of changes in atmospheric pressure.
   I did that too - also with an LPRO, which I think is one of the best to use for this. It's a cheap way to get something that's getting on for caesium performance without the price. It's particularly easy using fan cooling.
   One of the main reasons that I did it in the first place was to make a good reference for GPSDOs, but it was so good that I lost most of my interest in GPSDOs after that.

Quote
It turns out that it's not only ambient temperature variations you have to account for with a RFS but barometric variations as well and whilst I had hoped I could keep it simple and use a barometric sensor with analogue output which, with some pre-conditioning, could be applied directly to the freq tuning input terminal, it turns out that the most cost effective way is to use a cheap digital sensor and, you've guessed it, a nano3, so it looks like I'll be diving much deeper into programming the nano3 rather sooner than I thought.
   I use an analogue sensor to bias the EFC too, but have been looking to upgrade. I thought that I'd found one in the Infineon KP236, but on testing there are larger steps in the output than I would like. Some old Bosch ones like the SMD288 are promising if a little noisy. I was trying to avoid having to use a digital sensor and microcontroller etc. just for a sensor, but it's looking like that's probably a good way to go. The effect of changes in barometric pressure seemed a bit delayed too, so using a microcontroller here could allow for that.

Quote
If my nano3 based environmentally compensated RFS project succeeds, the next obvious project is going to be this Lars gpsdo one (leaving me just one spare nano3 to find a use for). Ultimately, if I'm going to discipline my RFS to a GPS based frequency standard, the Lars design is the most cost effective way to smooth out the minute to minute and hour to hour phase variations by averaging days' worth of timing data with a Kalman filtering algorithm to compensate for the ageing driven frequency drift of the RFS.
   I had also originally thought about making a full GPSDO with it, but did not end up doing that. Once you have temperature control, air pressure compensation and long term drift correction, a good LPRO could have a better stability than GPS out to a tau of days, so if short term measurements are relevant there's something very wrong. I think that it would probably take something like a u-blox ZED-F9 series receiver to see what's going on. I think that some folk on the time-nuts list were going down this route.
   If you can do continuous measurements (such as with a TDC) what can be useful is adding other references (quartz/Rb/GPS) into the mix. That way, if you do get a frequency jump or any other strange issues, it's easier to see what has happened.
 
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Offline Fennec

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #610 on: September 15, 2020, 02:56:58 pm »
Does anyone has tried to discipline a Rubidium Reference like the FE-5680A or FE-5650A?
I've searched but I can't find an easy solution. The DAC is too imprecise to be used as a Mhz10 ... 000 reference. So you have to use the analoge side. And I can't find any information about that. Maybe the Heater itself?
My "good" FE-5680A is more than 10Hz off.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 03:01:56 pm by Fennec »
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #611 on: September 15, 2020, 03:00:26 pm »
Does anyone has tried to discipline a Rubidium Reference like the FE-5680A or FE-5650A?
I've searched but I can't find an easy solution. The DAC is too imprecise to be used as a Mhz10 ... 000 reference. So you have to use the analoge side. And I can't find any information about that. Maybe the Heater itself?

LPRO-101 is an easy target. You can just hook up the DAC to the external C-Field input.
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Offline Mike99

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #612 on: September 15, 2020, 05:30:46 pm »
Did you heat insulate it?
Not yet, but I will when it's on the PCB. I'm just aging it at the moment  ;)

I have a nice OCXO for you:
https://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv336m.pdf
 ;D
Well it's better than my Vectron but probably costs 10 times as much  :(
 
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Offline Johnny B Good

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #613 on: September 16, 2020, 04:18:11 am »
I'm currently trying to build myself an RFS from an Efratom LPRO-101 rubidium frequency standard which means mounting it in an enclosure where I can stabilise the base plate temperature and compensate for the effects of changes in atmospheric pressure.
   I did that too - also with an LPRO, which I think is one of the best to use for this. It's a cheap way to get something that's getting on for caesium performance without the price. It's particularly easy using fan cooling.
   One of the main reasons that I did it in the first place was to make a good reference for GPSDOs, but it was so good that I lost most of my interest in GPSDOs after that.

Quote
It turns out that it's not only ambient temperature variations you have to account for with a RFS but barometric variations as well and whilst I had hoped I could keep it simple and use a barometric sensor with analogue output which, with some pre-conditioning, could be applied directly to the freq tuning input terminal, it turns out that the most cost effective way is to use a cheap digital sensor and, you've guessed it, a nano3, so it looks like I'll be diving much deeper into programming the nano3 rather sooner than I thought.
   I use an analogue sensor to bias the EFC too, but have been looking to upgrade. I thought that I'd found one in the Infineon KP236, but on testing there are larger steps in the output than I would like. Some old Bosch ones like the SMD288 are promising if a little noisy. I was trying to avoid having to use a digital sensor and microcontroller etc. just for a sensor, but it's looking like that's probably a good way to go. The effect of changes in barometric pressure seemed a bit delayed too, so using a microcontroller here could allow for that.

Quote
If my nano3 based environmentally compensated RFS project succeeds, the next obvious project is going to be this Lars gpsdo one (leaving me just one spare nano3 to find a use for). Ultimately, if I'm going to discipline my RFS to a GPS based frequency standard, the Lars design is the most cost effective way to smooth out the minute to minute and hour to hour phase variations by averaging days' worth of timing data with a Kalman filtering algorithm to compensate for the ageing driven frequency drift of the RFS.
   I had also originally thought about making a full GPSDO with it, but did not end up doing that. Once you have temperature control, air pressure compensation and long term drift correction, a good LPRO could have a better stability than GPS out to a tau of days, so if short term measurements are relevant there's something very wrong. I think that it would probably take something like a u-blox ZED-F9 series receiver to see what's going on. I think that some folk on the time-nuts list were going down this route.
   If you can do continuous measurements (such as with a TDC) what can be useful is adding other references (quartz/Rb/GPS) into the mix. That way, if you do get a frequency jump or any other strange issues, it's easier to see what has happened.

 The LPRO-101's are getting rather long in the tooth leaving you wondering just how long you've got before you resort to refurbishing the physics package with IPA to clean 20+year's worth of contaminants off the glassware and taking a hairdryer to the lamp in the hope of redistributing the rubidium back to where it belongs. They're a better choice compared to the FE5680As if you need a low phase noise reference you can use to transvert an HF transceiver right up to 24GHz without having to add a clean up XO.

 I take your point over the use of a simple fan to control temperature. You've just got to pick a target temperature that's not too high for the sake of the electronics, yet not so low that the heaters in the physics package land up running too close to the limit for comfort at the lowest expected ambient temperature.

 I reckon my chosen instrument case might be large enough to avoid the need for ventilation by varying the speed of recirculated airflow targeting the base plate to control heat dissipation into the relatively large surface area of the enclosure's panels. I've always got the option to add ventilation to the case if such a cooling scheme proves inadequate during the final commissioning test stage. It'll be interesting to see what stability improvement I can achieve with thermal regulation alone (first things first, especially the easiest ones to begin with :)).

 I've already purchased a BMP280 module from here:-  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMP280-Pressure-Sensor-Module-Arduino-Precision-Atmospheric-BMP180-Replacement/283518687928?hash=item420307dab8:g:3gAAAOSwLdVcpzYQ

 along with a couple of 4 channel bi-directional logic level converters to interface it to my Nano3 so I can experiment with the BMP280 libraries and create a suitable pressure and temperature sensor module to replace whatever thermistor based fan controller I cobble together for my initial thermal regulation experiments.

 Off the top of my head, I don't think you can sample barometric pressure readings much faster than ten times a second with the BMP280 anyway which is at least an order of magnitude quicker than I'd need even if I use an oversampling technique to filter out any sampling error noise for a once per minute update to the output signal driving the EFC input of the RFS. Even this rate is probably way faster than would actually be called for.

 Changes of barometric pressure even in the case of rapidly approaching storms here in the UK seem unlikely to exceed a 10 hPa per hour. Checking out my inexpensive I.T. Works weather station's pressure trend histogram just now shows that between 4 and 8 hours ago, there had been a 'sudden jump' (basically a 1 hPa per hour rise) of 4 hPa up to the current reading of 1010 hPa. Actually, the histogram just updated to show that same jump as now spanning an 8 hour period! At those rates of change, the Nano3 won't be working hard so much as hardly working at all ::).

 That remark about your LPRO being so good that you lost interest in GPSDOs made me smile. :) I fully appreciate where you're coming from. However, if you want to check and redo the calibration from time to time, you'll need to keep hold of at least one GPSDO even if its short term phase stability leaves something to be desired compared to a RFS.

 I checked out the price of a ZED-F9 based plug 'n' play module - too bloody expensive for my taste :o. I'll make do with a humble single frequency timing module for my current gpsdo experiments for the time being. As for the idea of acquiring a TDC (I had to google that acronym - I'd seen it used before but couldn't recall exactly what it had referred to ::) ), I'll manage a bit longer without (just like I managed without a RFS until I just had to take a closer look at how my GPSDOs were responding to the effects of ionospheric disturbance to the ToF of the satellite signals  :) ). And, to think this all started out as a means of accessing a high accuracy frequency reference to calibrate a TCXO (followed by an OCXO) upgrade of the crappy 50MHz XO smd IC in a cheap FeelTech FY6600 AWG function generator. :palm:

John (JBG)

 
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 04:23:47 am by Johnny B Good »
John
 
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Offline thinkfat

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #614 on: September 16, 2020, 06:28:48 am »
The LPRO-101's are getting rather long in the tooth leaving you wondering just how long you've got before you resort to refurbishing the physics package with IPA to clean 20+year's worth of contaminants off the glassware and taking a hairdryer to the lamp in the hope of redistributing the rubidium back to where it belongs. They're a better choice compared to the FE5680As if you need a low phase noise reference you can use to transvert an HF transceiver right up to 24GHz without having to add a clean up XO.

I wouldn't worry so much about the physics package in the LPRO. I'm now into repairing/restoring the third RFS of that breed (two LPRO, one SLCR) and the physics package itself was never the problem. It was always something else, mostly aging of components due to heat. Should you really need to "rejuvenate" the Rb lamp itself, it's a quick and easy procedure. Besides, that failure mode is not typical to the LPRO.

The best thing about the LPRO is that it is a fairly contemporary design, with only two components (three, if you count the physics package) being unobtainable but possibly salvageable: The SRD in the cavity and the FPGA. Everything else is standard stuff you can buy from DigiMouser. The most expensive component is likely the RF MOSFET that drives the lamp exciter, at roughly $30 in single quantities. The transistors in the synthesizer are probably hard to come by but there are suitable replacements.

Anyway, there are still so many around that repair is not economically viable today.
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Offline W3AXL

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #615 on: September 19, 2020, 02:42:42 pm »
Hi everyone!

I've been wanting to get a GPSDO for my lab for a while now. Thumbed through Lars's PDFs and realized this was a surprisingly trivial circuit to set up.

I spent a day in Kicad working on my own version, with the hopes to have a compact GPSDO with 4 buffered 10MHz outputs and a USB serial port for outputting NMEA.

Here's the result:



And the PCB:



With the hopes that the final assembly will look something like this:



I'd love to hear thoughts, and if I've made in major mistakes in the schematic that I should fix before I commit to buy the boards.

Made a github repo for the project as well, if anyone cares to check that out

Can't wait to join the ranks of people keeping Lars's legacy alive!
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #616 on: September 19, 2020, 03:30:47 pm »
For a bit of additional flexibility regarding the OCXO EFC, you might want to use something like the attached circuit as a buffer/amplifier. Nevermind the DAC, just have a look at U6A and U6B.



PS: attaching inlined images is forever broken it seems. It used to work. Not any longer :-(
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 03:37:39 pm by thinkfat »
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Offline FriedLogic

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #617 on: September 19, 2020, 08:30:58 pm »

 The LPRO-101's are getting rather long in the tooth leaving you wondering just how long you've got before you resort to refurbishing the physics package with IPA to clean 20+year's worth of contaminants off the glassware and taking a hairdryer to the lamp in the hope of redistributing the rubidium back to where it belongs. They're a better choice compared to the FE5680As if you need a low phase noise reference you can use to transvert an HF transceiver right up to 24GHz without having to add a clean up XO.
   Most of the problems that I've seen mentioned with LPROs are electronic, not lamp. Although the lamp has a more defined ageing characteristic than most other components, it is otherwise just one reliable component out of very many others, so tends not to be the cause of too many problems. Lamps have been gradually refined over the decades, and by the late 90's it appears to have become much less of an issue.

   It's not just noise that causes problems with other types. The SRS PRS12 is excellent, but it uses a DAC for all it's adjustments. This limits the resolution to between 1E-12 and 2E-12, and there is the DAC non-linearity on top of that.
   The FE-5680A type ones come in many different variants, and usually have a coarse temperature compensation that causes frequency jumps.
   I once checked with Temex about their FRS series and was told that the analogue C-field adjustment was truly analogue and step-less, but neither of the two old Temex ones that I tried worked brilliantly.
   Most rubidiums are so noisy that for RF applications you're often going to need to add an OCXO and lock that to the rubidium anyway.

Quote
I take your point over the use of a simple fan to control temperature. You've just got to pick a target temperature that's not too high for the sake of the electronics, yet not so low that the heaters in the physics package land up running too close to the limit for comfort at the lowest expected ambient temperature.
   There's a table in the manual for it that shows the MTBF falling from 381,000 hours at 20°C  to 134,000 hours at 60°C. There's really way too much concern out there about operating them at lower baseplate temperatures. The LPRO has a minimum operating temperature of -30°C, and often will be operating in equipment which has fans blowing air over them keeping the whole case at ambient (probably not at -30°C...). Keeping the baseplate temperature down towards room temperature - although not necessary - is not a crazy low target, but will increase the power consumption a bit and probably won't be practical with fan cooling unless you live in a far north cave. If the temperature is set too low it will just take a sunny day or a heater left on for longer than expected for it to get too hot and potentially mess up a long test run.

Quote
I reckon my chosen instrument case might be large enough to avoid the need for ventilation by varying the speed of recirculated airflow targeting the base plate to control heat dissipation into the relatively large surface area of the enclosure's panels. I've always got the option to add ventilation to the case if such a cooling scheme proves inadequate during the final commissioning test stage. It'll be interesting to see what stability improvement I can achieve with thermal regulation alone (first things first, especially the easiest ones to begin with :)).
   I think that it might be a challenge to keep the temperature down with a closed case. I tried that with a power supply and there was still a lot of heat build up.
   One issue with having the fan in more or less open air is that if the air temperature changes fast (such as opening a door) it tends to cause a temperature spike - adding an extra sensor measuring the temperature of the cooling air should help. Something this size does not have a single temperature anyway, but it may be as well just compensating for any remaining temperature fluctuations rather than trying too hard to remove them.
   I was experimenting with a PWM fan that stopped rather than just going slow at minimum, and combining that with feedback should give good control.

Quote
I've already purchased a BMP280 module from here:-  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMP280-Pressure-Sensor-Module-Arduino-Precision-Atmospheric-BMP180-Replacement/283518687928?hash=item420307dab8:g:3gAAAOSwLdVcpzYQ

 along with a couple of 4 channel bi-directional logic level converters to interface it to my Nano3 so I can experiment with the BMP280 libraries and create a suitable pressure and temperature sensor module to replace whatever thermistor based fan controller I cobble together for my initial thermal regulation experiments.

 Off the top of my head, I don't think you can sample barometric pressure readings much faster than ten times a second with the BMP280 anyway which is at least an order of magnitude quicker than I'd need even if I use an oversampling technique to filter out any sampling error noise for a once per minute update to the output signal driving the EFC input of the RFS. Even this rate is probably way faster than would actually be called for.

 Changes of barometric pressure even in the case of rapidly approaching storms here in the UK seem unlikely to exceed a 10 hPa per hour. Checking out my inexpensive I.T. Works weather station's pressure trend histogram just now shows that between 4 and 8 hours ago, there had been a 'sudden jump' (basically a 1 hPa per hour rise) of 4 hPa up to the current reading of 1010 hPa. Actually, the histogram just updated to show that same jump as now spanning an 8 hour period! At those rates of change, the Nano3 won't be working hard so much as hardly working at all ::).
   Since the sensitivity of an LPRO to pressure is <1E-13/mbar, but its nominal 1s stability is very much greater at 3E-11, there's not usually much need to worry about noise or sampling rate for pressure.

Quote
That remark about your LPRO being so good that you lost interest in GPSDOs made me smile. :) I fully appreciate where you're coming from. However, if you want to check and redo the calibration from time to time, you'll need to keep hold of at least one GPSDO even if its short term phase stability leaves something to be desired compared to a RFS.
   The timescales involved are long enough that a GPS will usually be as good or better than a GPSDO anyway, as long as there are no major sawtooth issues. For calibration, I usually just log 1000 second averages of the 1PPS derived from the LPRO against the 1PPS from GPS. That makes it very easy to check the drift over hours or days.

Quote
I checked out the price of a ZED-F9 based plug 'n' play module - too bloody expensive for my taste :o. I'll make do with a humble single frequency timing module for my current gpsdo experiments for the time being. As for the idea of acquiring a TDC (I had to google that acronym - I'd seen it used before but couldn't recall exactly what it had referred to ::) ), I'll manage a bit longer without (just like I managed without a RFS until I just had to take a closer look at how my GPSDOs were responding to the effects of ionospheric disturbance to the ToF of the satellite signals  :) ). And, to think this all started out as a means of accessing a high accuracy frequency reference to calibrate a TCXO (followed by an OCXO) upgrade of the crappy 50MHz XO smd IC in a cheap FeelTech FY6600 AWG function generator. :palm:
   With me it was to calibrate an oscillator for a clock...
   There are lots of cheap boards with TDC-GP21 or GP22s in them, and there are arduino libraries for them. Just add an arduino and a few other components and for very little you can measure short time differences of up to 100us quite well. Much cheaper to buy and run than frequency counter.
   The TI TDC7200 is probably easier to use, but I've not seen any cheap boards for them.

   This may be getting a little OT for this thread, but it is one of the few ways of actually testing a GPSDO. The self referencing measurements can only go so far.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 08:57:19 pm by FriedLogic »
 
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Offline Johnny B Good

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #618 on: September 19, 2020, 11:54:05 pm »
Hi everyone!

I've been wanting to get a GPSDO for my lab for a while now. Thumbed through Lars's PDFs and realized this was a surprisingly trivial circuit to set up.

I spent a day in Kicad working on my own version, with the hopes to have a compact GPSDO with 4 buffered 10MHz outputs and a USB serial port for outputting NMEA.

Here's the result:



And the PCB:



With the hopes that the final assembly will look something like this:



I'd love to hear thoughts, and if I've made in major mistakes in the schematic that I should fix before I commit to buy the boards.

Made a github repo for the project as well, if anyone cares to check that out

Can't wait to join the ranks of people keeping Lars's legacy alive!

 Just one observation. I do think, imo, you have one too may switches on that front panel.  :)  To my mind, that just seems a little redundant when you can simply shut it off by literally pulling a DC jack plug out the back on those, hopefully, rather rare occasions when you might need to shut it down for repair/troubleshooting or upgrade work.

John
John
 
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Offline Dbldutch

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #619 on: September 20, 2020, 07:13:47 am »
@Axel,

Although in principle, the schematic is very simple indeed, however, the devil is lurking in the details.

I suggest you give every functional block their own voltage regulator. Especially the NEO and the Arduino. Use some fer-rites to block the 10HMz coming from the OCXO back into the DAC circuit. The 1PPS signal introduces a lot of supply and ground bounce, be aware. To slow down some edges, use small resistors in series with the 1PPS, 10MHz and 5Mhz signals.

I also suggest you look at many posts up where a method was discussed to isolate the noisy Arduino PWM output for the DAC by adding some gates with their own seperate reference supply.

You don't mention the OCXO you're going to use (I can guess from the layout), but many of them are very sensitive to the ambient temperature. I suggest to add some hardware to be able to drive a small fan to keep the temperature inside the enclosure as stable as possible. For that you need temperature sensors for the OCXO and the ambient inside the enclosure. You'll need the OCXO temp sensor to use the compensation in the Lars program anyway. I am currently experimenting with a fan and I see great results in making the DAC output less sensitive to temperatures, which will help to truly analyze the GPSDO with TimeLab plots.

Succes!
 
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Offline 0xFFF0

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #620 on: September 20, 2020, 07:33:23 am »
Having lots of voltage regulators is a good solution to preventing noise. Long lines between voltage regulator and consumer cause voltage fluctuations due to the relatively high PCB line resistance. Every 100uV counts.

Is temperature compensation really crucial? We are talking about a GPSDO and not a free-running OCXO. Changes in temperature should be regulated away by the PLL. In my opinion, you just have to make sure that the OCXO is protected from temporary temperature changes, e.g. an open door. A good case is enough. Long-term changes are also eliminated by the PLL.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2020, 07:40:37 am by 0xFFF0 »
 
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Offline Dbldutch

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #621 on: September 20, 2020, 07:51:04 am »
A DAC that is influenced by temperature changes falsifies the GPSDO analysis in TimeLab.
If you look back into several of my earlier posts, you can clearly see the effects room temperature changes have on the OCXO.
 

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #622 on: September 20, 2020, 08:16:27 am »
Having lots of voltage regulators is a good solution to preventing noise. Long lines between voltage regulator and consumer cause voltage fluctuations due to the relatively high PCB line resistance. Every 100uV counts.

Is temperature compensation really crucial? We are talking about a GPSDO and not a free-running OCXO. Changes in temperature should be regulated away by the PLL. In my opinion, you just have to make sure that the OCXO is protected from temporary temperature changes, e.g. an open door. A good case is enough. Long-term changes are also eliminated by the PLL.

I agree with that in general. Putting a lot of thermal "impedance" between the OCXO and the environment is better than trying to compensate temperature change in software. However, what you try to achieve is keeping the GPS influence on the OCXO minimal. That demands long filters and long time constants. The PLL will eventually not be able to compensate environmental effects any more, unless you help the regulation with additional information. With very long time constants you might get the PLL to unlock even due to small temperature effects.

In any case, requirements drive the design. What do you want to do with the GPSDO? What stability do you require over which observation time? A very long time constant might not be what you want, it tends to degrade stability over large observation intervals, with no obvious gain for short tau because of the inherent phase noise of the LO.
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 

Offline 0xFFF0

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #623 on: September 20, 2020, 08:28:40 am »
A DAC that is influenced by temperature changes falsifies the GPSDO analysis in TimeLab.
If you look back into several of my earlier posts, you can clearly see the effects room temperature changes have on the OCXO.
The changing DAC value ruins your measurement in Timelab, but not the accuracy of the 10MHz-OCXO.
 
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Offline 0xFFF0

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Re: Lars DIY GPSDO with Arduino and 1ns resolution TIC
« Reply #624 on: September 20, 2020, 08:29:42 am »
Having lots of voltage regulators is a good solution to preventing noise. Long lines between voltage regulator and consumer cause voltage fluctuations due to the relatively high PCB line resistance. Every 100uV counts.

Is temperature compensation really crucial? We are talking about a GPSDO and not a free-running OCXO. Changes in temperature should be regulated away by the PLL. In my opinion, you just have to make sure that the OCXO is protected from temporary temperature changes, e.g. an open door. A good case is enough. Long-term changes are also eliminated by the PLL.

I agree with that in general. Putting a lot of thermal "impedance" between the OCXO and the environment is better than trying to compensate temperature change in software. However, what you try to achieve is keeping the GPS influence on the OCXO minimal. That demands long filters and long time constants. The PLL will eventually not be able to compensate environmental effects any more, unless you help the regulation with additional information. With very long time constants you might get the PLL to unlock even due to small temperature effects.

In any case, requirements drive the design. What do you want to do with the GPSDO? What stability do you require over which observation time? A very long time constant might not be what you want, it tends to degrade stability over large observation intervals, with no obvious gain for short tau because of the inherent phase noise of the LO.

Calculating the PI filter is a science.
 


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