EV-based road transportation is not viable

[james_s]

I think of people with your attitude every time that I'm stuck behind a dump truck with filthy exhaust (full of particulates) on the road.
There is need for regulation of vehicles using the public highways.

Well fortunately for you I don't drive a particularly dirty car, it's new enough to have EFI and a catalytic converter and I drive less than 2,000 miles a year. I agree with there being SOME rules to drive on public highways, but older vehicles must be grandfathered in, and you can't do sweeping changes like a hard ban that requires people to buy all new cars, people can barely afford to live as it is, and then there are this other sort who try to rule from their ivory towers and don't care what difficulty it costs.

I value clean air and water and try to do my part, and I advocate EVs for everyone they will work well for who can afford them, but some of this environmental stuff goes too far, it is a cult-like religion. The data I can find is all pretty dire and suggests that the damage has already been done, there is no point in going to massive lengths to prevent it at this point because the ball is already rolling. It also doesn't really matter, the entire Western world could stop burning fossil fuels today and places like China, India, Russia and the third world are going to take up the slack. Fact of the matter is, the fossil fuels on earth are going to be consumed by somebody one way or another until natural scarcity forces people to find other options. I'm pretty sure the next war will make most of this moot anyway, it's naive to think there will never be another massive global conflict.

[james_s]

Governments need to step in, when the ordinary citizen isn't smart enough to look after a shared resource. Tragedy of the commons. Unfortunately, your idiot politicians again turned something evident into a political debate. It amazes me that both sides of the US politics is filled with science deniers, and created a post truth society.

Just wait until a government decides that *you* are not smart enough to know what's best for you and steps in, don't think it can't or won't happen at some point. Do you honestly think the people in government are smarter than the average folks? Consider what motivates most people to get into politics, and how much it costs to run for office. Politicians are a lot like corporate CEOs, most of them are manipulative self serving sociopaths with a thirst for power and wealth. They support science and data when it furthers their agenda and ignore it when it does not. The ones making the most noise about climate stuff and fossil fuels live in their luxury mansions and fly around in their private jets burning more fuel and creating more pollution than someone like me will in a lifetime of driving around in an old car living in a suburban house and I'd like to see them live in a city apartment and rely on public transit, walking and bicycles before they try to push it on everyone else. It's not just American politicians, they are broadly similar the world over and people that think theirs are somehow different and special are mostly just exhibiting tribalism. I have no political affiliation and no party loyalty and from my vantage point I see a whole lot of the same behavior occurring on all sides, while they all point fingers at each other and claim that the other side is so much worse. It's all a bunch of nonsense.

[vad]

Evidence is BEV sakes are doing well public charging in progressive countries is doing ok. Tax will increase on ice users until they get the message that burning dino juice isn’t acceptable.

Are you sure you did not forget to count barrels of dino juice need to manufacture a BEV? BEVs don’t grow on trees, you know.

Speaking of naturally growing own transportation. Why not consider going back to horse riding? Horse-drawn carriage is as close to a true zero emissions transportation as it can get. Cross country travel on horses would be as fast as in future economic BEVs - you ride 35 miles, then stay in a motel overnight while horses recharge.

I am sure some people would prefer natural smell of horse manure to the smell of exhaust from a Euro 7 compliant ICE vehicle, while being stuck in a traffic jam.

[themadhippy]

public charging in progressive countries is doing ok.

According to the telegraph i guess that makes the uk  un progressive

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/the-broken-promises-betraying-electric-car-drivers/ar-AA16vIoh?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=da04a0cbeee9400c99a2f40df39d8e35

it also appears to shoot a hole in the electric car is cheaper to run argument,from the above article

RAC data shows it is about £10 cheaper to fill up a 55-litre petrol car than using a rapid charger, while diesel is almost £3 cheaper than ultra-rapid charging.

[Red Squirrel]

To me the cost is what makes it unfeasible.  They keep going up in price and this is only going to continue as they deplete the supply of minerals needed for batteries.  Most people are not going to be able to afford or justify an EV.

I'd love an EV truck but every time I look at them they went up by like 10 grand. The F150 is now around 90k for the base model after you account for taxes.   Even if I account for fuel savings it's still more money than I'll ever spend with my gas truck which I got for 14k. 

Maybe in 10-20 years from now when there are more EVs in the used market I would consider buying a used one, but I'd be worried I end up having to change out the battery and spend like 30 grand doing that.  Shops don't really want to work on these including the dealers themselves, so rather than fix an issue with the battery they just want to replace the whole thing.  The industry is treating these like ipads basically.  Warranty runs out and you're on your own.  At least with gas vehicles dealerships and 3rd party shops are willing to actually open the hood and fix individual parts instead of telling you that you need a new engine.

At some point I do want to get setup with a proper shop and I might experiment with doing an EV swap. One advantage to that as well is no gimmicks, like cloud based stuff or app based stuff, it would be kept simple and be 100% local.   Though the issue is getting the battery cells.  There just are not a lot of legit places to get them from here in Canada. 

[NiHaoMike]

I agree with there being SOME rules to drive on public highways, but older vehicles must be grandfathered in, and you can't do sweeping changes like a hard ban that requires people to buy all new cars, people can barely afford to live as it is, and then there are this other sort who try to rule from their ivory towers and don't care what difficulty it costs.

What about a partial grandfathering? For example, express lanes on highways that energy efficient cars (both old and new) can drive on for free, while inefficient cars must pay a toll to drive on those lanes?

[AVGresponding]

I agree with there being SOME rules to drive on public highways, but older vehicles must be grandfathered in, and you can't do sweeping changes like a hard ban that requires people to buy all new cars, people can barely afford to live as it is, and then there are this other sort who try to rule from their ivory towers and don't care what difficulty it costs.

What about a partial grandfathering? For example, express lanes on highways that energy efficient cars (both old and new) can drive on for free, while inefficient cars must pay a toll to drive on those lanes?

Given that it's the poorer parts of society that can't afford to buy an EV, and must use an ICE vehicle for work etc, you've just invented another tax on the poor.   

[MadScientist]

Governments need to step in, when the ordinary citizen isn't smart enough to look after a shared resource. Tragedy of the commons. Unfortunately, your idiot politicians again turned something evident into a political debate. It amazes me that both sides of the US politics is filled with science deniers, and created a post truth society.

Just wait until a government decides that *you* are not smart enough to know what's best for you and steps in, don't think it can't or won't happen at some point. Do you honestly think the people in government are smarter than the average folks? Consider what motivates most people to get into politics, and how much it costs to run for office. Politicians are a lot like corporate CEOs, most of them are manipulative self serving sociopaths with a thirst for power and wealth. They support science and data when it furthers their agenda and ignore it when it does not. The ones making the most noise about climate stuff and fossil fuels live in their luxury mansions and fly around in their private jets burning more fuel and creating more pollution than someone like me will in a lifetime of driving around :-*v  :-*boffubs :-*unbfor in an old car living in a suburban house and I'd like to see them live in a city apartment and rely on public transit, walking and bicycles before they try to push it on everyone else. It's not just American politicians, they are broadly similar the world over and people that think theirs are somehow different and special are mostly just exhibiting tribalism. I have no political affiliation and no party loyalty and from my vantage point I see a whole lot of the same behavior occurring on all sides, while they all point fingers at each other and claim that the other side is so much worse. It's all a bunch of nonsense.

Maybe you need to look at your clearly flawed and failed political system. Where I’m from politicians live in ordinary semi D houses don’t have private jets and take commercial flights like everyone else. My minister for transport cycles to parliament and owns  a leaf , their salaries are relatively modest , you can run for office for €100. And a few printed posters ( and people do )

I can drop into my prime ministers pub  and see him having a pint with his partner he’s gay and it’s widely accepted .  Politics doesn’t have to be elitest. The US system for example is now so dominated by money as to be one of the great failed systems of the world.

I’ve sat with gov working groups on Bev adoption the gov experts round the table where well informed upto fare , progressive and simply looking to develop workable solutions the people where from energy regulators , grid operators , transport regulators and local gov people. All together a clever knowledgable group but equally willing to listen to a advocacy ngo like I was representing   

It’s easy to be cynical about politics but that’s a cop out attitude

[MadScientist]

Frankly I think it's absurd we're still allowing the sale of some luxury petrol/diesel vehicles.

For instance I can walk into a dealership now and buy a 3L Range Rover petrol SUV.  A horrible vehicle for many reasons, not least due to who usually drives it, but with a huge emissions profile too.

"Nobody" needs such a vehicle yet it will likely be on the roads for 15-20 years.  I would like to see the >£50k price bracket be electric only with very few exceptions for e.g. work trucks and the like.  At the lower end ordinary consumers can still buy a Golf, Focus etc. powered by petrol whilst EVs remain inaccessible for them for a number of reasons like not having somewhere to park and charge.

See people with attitudes like yours make me want to go buy the biggest dirtiest truck I can find and drive it around just out of spite. You don't get to tell other people what they need, you are not in charge, even though you give the impression that you dearly wish you had the power to rule over people. This is frankly disturbing.

You exist in a “ society “ that’s effectively collectively governed. You don’t simply get to “ do what you like” you are rightly constrained by societal rules many which are laws of the land

Society is changing its views in private transport given the pollutant and environmental damage , as a result we are seeing more pedestrianisation , more urban control over cars and tax regimes that favour greener cars

Shot all you like but your dino burning days are coming to an end

[MadScientist]

I agree with there being SOME rules to drive on public highways, but older vehicles must be grandfathered in, and you can't do sweeping changes like a hard ban that requires people to buy all new cars, people can barely afford to live as it is, and then there are this other sort who try to rule from their ivory towers and don't care what difficulty it costs.

What about a partial grandfathering? For example, express lanes on highways that energy efficient cars (both old and new) can drive on for free, while inefficient cars must pay a toll to drive on those lanes?

Given that it's the poorer parts of society that can't afford to buy an EV, and must use an ICE vehicle for work etc, you've just invented another tax on the poor.   

Some countries are now issuing distinctive registration plates to BEVs allowing them access to express lanes and into congestion controlled urban areas

Clearly govs can use a big carrot to encourage Bev adoption and equally a big stick to discourage dino juice burning gas guzzlers , certainly in progressive countries we are seeing if , the annual car tax here on a 3 litre engine is now over €1000 a Bev is €120

[tom66]

I think of people with your attitude every time that I'm stuck behind a dump truck with filthy exhaust (full of particulates) on the road.
There is need for regulation of vehicles using the public highways.

Well fortunately for you I don't drive a particularly dirty car, it's new enough to have EFI and a catalytic converter and I drive less than 2,000 miles a year. I agree with there being SOME rules to drive on public highways, but older vehicles must be grandfathered in, and you can't do sweeping changes like a hard ban that requires people to buy all new cars, people can barely afford to live as it is, and then there are this other sort who try to rule from their ivory towers and don't care what difficulty it costs.

For now I would only want to ban new ones, but in the end I would like to see all petrol/diesel powered SUVs taxed out of reasonable existence, except maybe in a museum as "once we thought this was a neat idea, we were wrong".

[MadScientist]

To me the cost is what makes it unfeasible.  They keep going up in price and this is only going to continue as they deplete the supply of minerals needed for batteries.  Most people are not going to be able to afford or justify an EV.

I'd love an EV truck but every time I look at them they went up by like 10 grand. The F150 is now around 90k for the base model after you account for taxes.   Even if I account for fuel savings it's still more money than I'll ever spend with my gas truck which I got for 14k. 

Maybe in 10-20 years from now when there are more EVs in the used market I would consider buying a used one, but I'd be worried I end up having to change out the battery and spend like 30 grand doing that.  Shops don't really want to work on these including the dealers themselves, so rather than fix an issue with the battery they just want to replace the whole thing.  The industry is treating these like ipads basically.  Warranty runs out and you're on your own.  At least with gas vehicles dealerships and 3rd party shops are willing to actually open the hood and fix individual parts instead of telling you that you need a new engine.

At some point I do want to get setup with a proper shop and I might experiment with doing an EV swap. One advantage to that as well is no gimmicks, like cloud based stuff or app based stuff, it would be kept simple and be 100% local.   Though the issue is getting the battery cells.  There just are not a lot of legit places to get them from here in Canada.

You’re making the classic mistake of projecting the status who forward

Here we seeing all the dealers geared up to service BEVs , the second tier is starting to follow suit ,third party battery replacement ships are opening.

As for battery life by 6 year old Leaf with 375,000 km remains usable with 100 mile range even though it’s lost 20% of capacity. It’s second hand value is better then an equivalent small ICE

AS BEVS predominate the service industry will change to support then we already seeing third party battery replacement shops etc and in my case Nissan BEV dealers will sell you replacement Nissan certified cells ( at a price of course )

In the winter via the app my BEV warns thd cabin, defrosts the windows and is all comfy in comparison to my frozen ice van. The Bev is way nicer to drive , faster , and has more creature comforts

[MadScientist]

I think of people with your attitude every time that I'm stuck behind a dump truck with filthy exhaust (full of particulates) on the road.
There is need for regulation of vehicles using the public highways.

Well fortunately for you I don't drive a particularly dirty car, it's new enough to have EFI and a catalytic converter and I drive less than 2,000 miles a year. I agree with there being SOME rules to drive on public highways, but older vehicles must be grandfathered in, and you can't do sweeping changes like a hard ban that requires people to buy all new cars, people can barely afford to live as it is, and then there are this other sort who try to rule from their ivory towers and don't care what difficulty it costs.

For now I would only want to ban new ones, but in the end I would like to see all petrol/diesel powered SUVs taxed out of reasonable existence, except maybe in a museum as "once we thought this was a neat idea, we were wrong".

Certainly within the EU that’s the plan , firstly for private non business transport dino juice will be gone by 2030. Secondly no replacement new ice cars will be on sale anyway

People seem to have trouble accepting the new reality , burning dino juice for personal transport is over , the day of the petrol engine , like a stream locomotive is coming to an end. It’s over folks get with the reality. In tandem restrictions in urban areas on all forms of motorised transport will increase , planners want cars out of city centres etc and to concentrate on trans, metros etc

The heyday of the petrolhead has passed.

[tggzzz]

Do you honestly think the people in government are smarter than the average folks? Consider what motivates most people to get into politics, and how much it costs to run for office. Politicians are a lot like corporate CEOs, most of them are manipulative self serving sociopaths with a thirst for power and wealth. They support science and data when it furthers their agenda and ignore it when it does not.

Well, that's the USA political system, not that in other countries.

That's the reason we have the civil service, a set of people which advise the (political) government and implement their policies as far as is possible. The top level people are extremely intelligent and powerful, with the nickname "Whitehall Mandarins".

I believe the USA also has something similar, except that there are political appointees at the top.

Having said that, in this country there is a push along the lines of "don't trust the experts", by the far-right disaster capitalists that don't like their policies being critically examined.

Summary: USA != world, but we need to be vigilant.

And that's quite enough politics.

[MadScientist]

Do you honestly think the people in government are smarter than the average folks? Consider what motivates most people to get into politics, and how much it costs to run for office. Politicians are a lot like corporate CEOs, most of them are manipulative self serving sociopaths with a thirst for power and wealth. They support science and data when it furthers their agenda and ignore it when it does not.

Well, that's the USA political system, not that in other countries.

That's the reason we have the civil service, a set of people which advise the (political) government and implement their policies as far as is possible. The top level people are extremely intelligent and powerful, with the nickname "Whitehall Mandarins".

I believe the USA also has something similar, except that there are political appointees at the top.

Having said that, in this country there is a push along the lines of "don't trust the experts", by the far-right disaster capitalists that don't like their policies being critically examined.

Summary: USA != world, but we need to be vigilant.

And that's quite enough politics.

Spot on. I’m tired of these arguments from US alt-right types constantly knocking governments. , maybe your system is utterly flawed.  It does seem donsince trump got elected but other countries have reasonable functioning systems dcc we’re not all so snugly dismissive and dismissive . In my view such proponents have no proper alternative vision except some fanciful notion of no governentbehichnus just fairy tale stuff

Let’s leave out such political cubism from this thread

[NiHaoMike]

Given that it's the poorer parts of society that can't afford to buy an EV, and must use an ICE vehicle for work etc, you've just invented another tax on the poor.   

They can drive on the slow lane(s) without paying a cent more than before.

[nctnico]

Given that it's the poorer parts of society that can't afford to buy an EV, and must use an ICE vehicle for work etc, you've just invented another tax on the poor.   

They can drive on the slow lane(s) without paying a cent more than before.

So your solution is to punish the people that work the hardest for the least amount money by coming late at work every day?  The biggest problem of getting into renewable energy sources is to get their prices on par with the cost of oil so that the lower working class can keep on living an affordable life. If not, they'll keep voting for people that want to keep using fossil fuels. See the US state Wyoming that plans to ban electric vehicles alltogether.

[NiHaoMike]

Doesn't have to be an EV, high MPG conventional cars also qualify as "energy efficient cars".

[tom66]

So your solution is to punish the people that work the hardest for the least amount money by coming late at work every day?  The biggest problem of getting into renewable energy sources is to get their prices on par with the cost of oil so that the lower working class can keep on living an affordable life. If not, they'll keep voting for people that want to keep using fossil fuels. See the US state Wyoming that plans to ban electric vehicles alltogether.

Well it sure is a problem to solve, but it could always be resolved with a revenue neutral taxation concept.

Basic idea: add something like $x to every gallon of gas, but every citizen gets an annual rebate that's equivalent to that tax on gasoline divided by the number of people in the area they live in or some other demographic.

Now (on average) no one is any worse off, and some are actually doing better than others, but suddenly you have a big incentive to reduce your usage of gasoline.  This concept has been tried in Canada with some success, and is generally received with popular support.  It turns out the poorest, most working class people don't drive; they take the bus, cycle, or walk to work, so this leaves them quite a bit better off.  Middle class people are more or less no worse off, and the richest who drive expensive gas guzzlers pay the most and have the biggest incentives.

[vad]

Well it sure is a problem to solve, but it could always be resolved with a revenue neutral taxation concept.

Basic idea: add something like $x to every gallon of gas, but every citizen gets an annual rebate that's equivalent to that tax on gasoline divided by the number of people in the area they live in or some other demographic.

Now (on average) no one is any worse off, and some are actually doing better than others, but suddenly you have a big incentive to reduce your usage of gasoline.  This concept has been tried in Canada with some success, and is generally received with popular support.

Is this why a liter of petrol in Montreal cost as much a gallon in Texas today? Or is this new tax designed to rob middle class people who cannot afford inner city living and have to commute long distances, and redistribute to cyclists and DUI convicts would be on top of the current ridiculously high tax?

[vad]

… duplicate

[nctnico]

So your solution is to punish the people that work the hardest for the least amount money by coming late at work every day?  The biggest problem of getting into renewable energy sources is to get their prices on par with the cost of oil so that the lower working class can keep on living an affordable life. If not, they'll keep voting for people that want to keep using fossil fuels. See the US state Wyoming that plans to ban electric vehicles alltogether.

Well it sure is a problem to solve, but it could always be resolved with a revenue neutral taxation concept.

Basic idea: add something like $x to every gallon of gas, but every citizen gets an annual rebate that's equivalent to that tax on gasoline divided by the number of people in the area they live in or some other demographic.

Now (on average) no one is any worse off, and some are actually doing better than others, but suddenly you have a big incentive to reduce your usage of gasoline.

It is not going to work for the simple reason that the lower class can't afford efficient cars. Simple example... I'm almost due for a new car. My options are to spend 5k euro on a similar car I have now or 10k on a way more efficient hybrid. In the long run the hybrid will be way cheaper to run due to the lower fuel costs but it requires twice the investment upfront.

[tom66]

It is not going to work for the simple reason that the lower class can't afford efficient cars. Simple example... I'm almost due for a new car. My options are to spend 5k euro on a similar car I have now or 10k on a way more efficient hybrid. In the long run the hybrid will be way cheaper to run due to the lower fuel costs but it requires twice the investment upfront.

Other ways to work on that though. For instance in Scotland if you're buying an EV under £25,000 (used or new) you can get an interest-free loan over 7 years to cover the cost.  It doesn't go all the way but it certainly helps.  The price of used EVs has been cratering recently due to the large numbers produced, let's hope that continues.

[nctnico]

And how are you going to get a loan if you can't pay for it? That is the reality for many people that live from paycheck to paycheck. I suggest you do more research into what the lower class working people are dealing with financially before coming up with more outrageous ideas that don't work in the real world. Paying 25k back in seven years is more than many people can spend on food each month.

[tom66]

And how are you going to get a loan if you can't pay for it? That is the reality for many people that live from paycheck to paycheck. I suggest you do more research into what the lower class working people are dealing with financially before coming up with more outrageous ideas that don't work in the real world. Paying 25k back in seven years is more than many people can spend on food each month.

I didn't say it was a perfect solution but it's a good idea nonetheless.

Longer term if you're paycheque to paycheque then there are other problems than EVs on your mind - there are too many people that are in financial peril in this country and elsewhere.  That's a problem even if they don't get an EV, what if the clutch packs in on their car. Something like 1 in 3 British people have less than £100 in savings, it's utterly mad.

Still, that's why banning new ICE is a good idea, there will be plenty of used ICE vehicles for some time before residuals on EVs start to meet those prices.