EV-based road transportation is not viable

[Marco]

I'm glad someone acknowledges the physical impracticality of solutions dreamed up by others

I would go further than impractical, I'd say the simple solutions are politically impossible on a lot of streets. Which for discussion is interesting since to paraphrase Arthur Conan Doyle, when the simple is impossible ... you are left with solutions which are merely improbable.

Within the realm of improbable a lot is still possible, you could have charging cables on a guide cable between lamp post (more likely acceptable than attaching to buildings). You could have inductive/capacitive charging below the cars. You could have highly robust connectors at ground level near the curb at high enough density you can usually find one between cars.

[nctnico]

It's not for convenience, it's to be able to put the charging connector on the curb and take up no room.

I'm not saying it's _the_ solution, I'm just saying in high density older European towns every solution to curb side charging has a ton of problems. The simple solution of just putting a charging pole every 6 meters will not work, not because of material cost but simply because it will make the street completely unusable. Every not simple solution is pretty far out there.

The problem is even simpler than that: in some cities planning committees won't allow to put that many charging poles in a street anyway.

[tautech]

The problem is even simpler than that: in some cities planning committees won't allow to put that many charging poles in a street anyway.

Hardly surprising, few have any idea what they are doing let alone anything to do with EV technology let alone it might be just a short-lived fad.

[tom66]

In that case I find it remarkable (but not surprising) that you propose schemes that aren't practical in places that are familiar to you.

Nope.  I don't find it remarkable at all, because unlike you, I don't think the present day situation will stand still.  5-6 years ago the street I frequently visited in south London had no EV charging infrastructure.  (Just an ordinary suburban street in S. Norwood.)  Now it has 8 lamppost chargers, two 'normal' 7kW charging units (2 ports each), and there's a 100kW DC charger in the centre of the town. 

That's a fail right there. If the police and courts don't have the time to fine people that obstruct pavements, then why do think they will have time to fine people that leave trip/grounding hazards across pavements?!

They don't fine people that park on the pavement (outside of London) because it is not usually illegal to park on the pavement.   It is one of those weird laws where it's illegal to drive on the pavement (except to access a property via a drive or similar), but not illegal to park on a pavement.

Try doing that in London though, I dare you.  In some areas, you have "no verge parking" signs, e.g. around parts of Bedford near me, and I have seen one or two people issued tickets.

You incorrectly presume I don't support EVs.

You're right, I did incorrectly presume that, because you don't bloody well make your opinion on the matter clear.  I'm happy that you've seen that we will need to electrify transport.

I also get sick and tired of people finding it acceptable to leave 10% (?25%?, whatever) of people severely disadvantaged. I know "I'm all right Jack" libertarianism is fashionable, but I find it loathesome.

When have I said it's okay to leave X% of people behind?  I said, let's solve the easy problems first, the people with driveways and off-road parking.  Almost everyone with a driveway could be driving an EV by next year if they wanted to, if the economics were there.  Then as these users drive the demand for street charging, because, they will want to use it now and then, that will follow pretty quickly and the economic case makes a lot more sense for private companies to install it.  Council budgets are too strapped dealing with social care in this country to be rolling out huge infrastructure projects, at least for the time being, so it will probably have to be private in some sense.  Most of London's street charging infrastructure is private.

Powering it is less easy, e.g. in West London where the grid infrastructure is already insufficient for building new housing developments. Upgrading that distributed grid infrastructure is a major challenge, very expensive and very disruptive.

We may need to upgrade the local grid in some areas, but you keep pointing to the West London example as if it represents a problem that exists everywhere.  And upgrading a local grid isn't anything more than roadworks to change cables, and replacing transformers.  It's work, sure, and power might need to be out for a few hours here and there, but it's not an unworkable disaster like you claim.  The biggest issue is that the work that is needed could take longer than necessary because the current planning schemes create problems for companies installing new lines.  In MacKay's book there's a quote about someone living near where the power to the London Array windfarm came in, complaining about the sight of the cables.  This kind of NIMBYism besets all infrastructure, and it's pervasive in this country. And, National Grid want a new 400kV line from north to south, but they're going to put it in the ocean because then the NIMBYs can't object.  Sigh.

The local DNO around here has been approving EV charging points with at most a week's delay, and a couple of people even have two charging points and solar on their home. So there's clearly not an imminent capacity crunch.   And on the face of it, that's actually reasonably obvious.  If you take that 1-in-7 charging figure I mentioned, you can assume each EV charges an average load of 1kW a night.  Do you think that the local grid can cope with 1kW per home?  Cooking alone in an electric oven is that much... or an electric shower in the morning.  (DNO's hate electric showers, by the way.)

Whatever the matter you think there is with the local grid is, I don't see that being what holds EV's back.  It's definitely the charging infrastructure, the posts and charging units themselves, rather than the power distribution, and yes, it is difficult.

[tggzzz]

I'm glad someone acknowledges the physical impracticality of solutions dreamed up by others

I would go further than impractical, I'd say the simple solutions are politically impossible on a lot of streets. Which for discussion is interesting since to paraphrase Arthur Conan Doyle, when the simple is impossible ... you are left with solutions which are merely improbable.

I loathe that Sherlock saying. Too often it is used along these lines: it isn't a bird, it isn't a plane, it isn't a meteor, (I can't think of anything else), therefore it must be an extraterrestrial spacecraft.

Within the realm of improbable a lot is still possible, you could have charging cables on a guide cable between lamp post (more likely acceptable than attaching to buildings). You could have inductive/capacitive charging below the cars. You could have highly robust connectors at ground level near the curb at high enough density you can usually find one between cars.

I refer you to my previous indication of the serious real life problems I have personally had to deal with regarding trailing cables.

I'm still waiting for you to outline a practical capacitative charger, or give a pointer to a suitable "highly robust connector". As most people here know, when a piece of electronic equipment stops working you, the first two things you check are whether the power is on and correct, and whether the connectors are working.

[tom66]

The Type2 connector, as used for virtually every EV today, is robust.  You can run over it with a car and it will still work.  The connectors have weatherproof covers which keep water and most detritus out of them.  I've been using my home EV charger for almost 5 years now and there's no issue with the connectors on either end, and that gets cycled daily. 

[tggzzz]

In that case I find it remarkable (but not surprising) that you propose schemes that aren't practical in places that are familiar to you.

Nope.  I don't find it remarkable at all, because unlike you, I don't think the present day situation will stand still.  5-6 years ago the street I frequently visited in south London had no EV charging infrastructure.  (Just an ordinary suburban street in S. Norwood.)  Now it has 8 lamppost chargers, two 'normal' 7kW charging units (2 ports each), and there's a 100kW DC charger in the centre of the town. 

Ordinary suburban streets are ones that can be cherrypicked. That's insufficient for the many very difficult cases that I have outlined.

It is easy to helicopter in some prototype infrastructure. What matters is whether the infrastructure works and continues to work.

At the risk of introducing an analogy that will generate more heat than light... If you are going to go hiking and know you have to cross a river in a remote location, there's no point in claiming the hike will be possible because it is easy to walk until you get to the river. You have to be able to say how you will cross the river.

You incorrectly presume I don't support EVs.

You're right, I did incorrectly presume that, because you don't bloody well make your opinion on the matter clear.  I'm happy that you've seen that we will need to electrify transport.

That opinion was irrelevant to the difficult points I raise. Analogy: if I ask how you are going to cross that river, the ability to walk to the river is irrelevant.

I also get sick and tired of people finding it acceptable to leave 10% (?25%?, whatever) of people severely disadvantaged. I know "I'm all right Jack" libertarianism is fashionable, but I find it loathesome.

When have I said it's okay to leave X% of people behind? 

It is the consequence of your statements and those of politicians issuing blanket bans on ICEs. Claiming otherwise doesn't change the consequences.

I said, let's solve the easy problems first, the people with driveways and off-road parking.  Almost everyone with a driveway could be driving an EV by next year if they wanted to, if the economics were there.  Then as these users drive the demand for street charging, because, they will want to use it now and then, that will follow pretty quickly and the economic case makes a lot more sense for private companies to install it.  Council budgets are too strapped dealing with social care in this country to be rolling out huge infrastructure projects, at least for the time being, so it will probably have to be private in some sense.  Most of London's street charging infrastructure is private.

Powering it is less easy, e.g. in West London where the grid infrastructure is already insufficient for building new housing developments. Upgrading that distributed grid infrastructure is a major challenge, very expensive and very disruptive.

We may need to upgrade the local grid in some areas, but you keep pointing to the West London example as if it represents a problem that exists everywhere. 

West London is the existing and highly visible example that has been "solved" by political fiat and denial.

There will be many more all over th country.

And upgrading a local grid isn't anything more than roadworks to change cables, and replacing transformers.  It's work, sure, and power might need to be out for a few hours here and there, but it's not an unworkable disaster like you claim. 

They are doing something similar on an A road in a suburb near me. It is causing major disruption and will last 2 years. Many complaints from all quarters, to no avail.

Your presumptions are grossly unrealistic.

Whatever the matter you think there is with the local grid is, I don't see that being what holds EV's back.  It's definitely the charging infrastructure, the posts and charging units themselves, rather than the power distribution, and yes, it is difficult.

I look at what is currently happening, not what I might think ought to be the case.

Both issues have to be addressed and solved.

[tggzzz]

The Type2 connector, as used for virtually every EV today, is robust.  You can run over it with a car and it will still work.  The connectors have weatherproof covers which keep water and most detritus out of them.  I've been using my home EV charger for almost 5 years now and there's no issue with the connectors on either end, and that gets cycled daily.

I have no reason to doubt that experience, and have never questioned it.

But it is in a very different location with very different constraints and requirements.

The other locations are far more challenging and will require very different solutions, just as internal 13A sockets are very different to those mounted outside.

[tszaboo]

The Type2 connector, as used for virtually every EV today, is robust.  You can run over it with a car and it will still work.  The connectors have weatherproof covers which keep water and most detritus out of them.  I've been using my home EV charger for almost 5 years now and there's no issue with the connectors on either end, and that gets cycled daily.

I've seen it blow up a Tesla's internal charger 2x (tesla didn't fix it with warranty, owners fault of course), tripping an entire office's circuit breaker. Probably contact resistance went up.
I know this is anecdotal.

[Ice-Tea]

Being able to charge at home is not a pass/fail for EV transportation. If you can charge at home, the viability of EV becomes a no-brainer. If you can't, most of the time there is an equally suitable solution available (or available in the nearby future). If you go to the office every day, those office will have charging points. I would assume you go to the supermarket from time to time. Perfect place for chargers. In the time it takes you to pick up some groceries, you can add 100km or so to the tank. Etc etc.

[tggzzz]

The Type2 connector, as used for virtually every EV today, is robust.  You can run over it with a car and it will still work.  The connectors have weatherproof covers which keep water and most detritus out of them.  I've been using my home EV charger for almost 5 years now and there's no issue with the connectors on either end, and that gets cycled daily.

I've seen it blow up a Tesla's internal charger 2x (tesla didn't fix it with warranty, owners fault of course), tripping an entire office's circuit breaker. Probably contact resistance went up.
I know this is anecdotal.

Ouch!

Old engineering maxim directly relevant to this topic: "it is impossible to make something foolproof because fools are so damn ingenious".

Then malice has to be added to the equation. Then other "suboptimum" human behaviours found in the wild.

Tesla/Musk has a habit of denying there is any problem with their product. Today's example: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60230072 . Unfortunately there are too many others.

Fortunately there are more responsible manufacturers, e.g. VW which is apparently tipped to become a major supplier of BEVs. Let's hope they've learned lessons from "dieselgate", as Ford did from Pinto.

[tom66]

I've seen it blow up a Tesla's internal charger 2x (tesla didn't fix it with warranty, owners fault of course), tripping an entire office's circuit breaker. Probably contact resistance went up.
I know this is anecdotal.

Eh? How would increased contact resistance 'blow up' the onboard charger?  From the charger's perspective, all it sees is a lower supply voltage, and it acts as a constant current sink... so it's hard to see how that could really damage anything.  Eventually it might trip the AFCI algorithm if the voltage at the charger input varies too much, but that should only suspend that charging session. 

I suppose in the worst case if the socket temperature sensor failed *and* you had high resistance contacts you could melt the socket, requiring replacement of both socket and cable.  However, I know at least on my car "socket temperature sensor implausible" is a fault code, which when set limits charging current to the minimum if it is active (a pain, but at least you can charge in an emergency, if not a bit slowly). I would be quite surprised if this is not common on all EVs.  Tesla has done a lot to improve safety of charging, including the AFCI algorithm which was added as a safety feature after some people reported poor sockets arcing and burning contacts.  The microcontroller in the charger observes the AC line voltage and backs the current off if it detects possible arcing.

[PlainName]

I would assume you go to the supermarket from time to time. Perfect place for chargers. In the time it takes you to pick up some groceries, you can add 100km or so to the tank. Etc etc.

Our local large supermarket has four spaces with chargers. So let's assume they are quick on their feet and take only 15 mins to shop. That's 16 cars per hour or 284/day (but actually less, because some will turn up, not find a slot and go home without charging). I think there needs to be HUGE rollout at every supermarket for this to make a dent. Eventually that might happen, but if you're a current early adopter it's a future potential, not something to rely on this year or next.

If you go to the office every day, those office will have charging points.

What, for every employee that has a car? Have you seen the size of some office car parks? It works now but the charging stations need to be at least level, if not a step ahead, of EV ownership.

Of course, not every EV will need to be charged at the office or shops since many can do it at home, but the massive lack of charge points I see doesn't encourage me to rely on away-from-home charging.

[Ice-Tea]

I would assume you go to the supermarket from time to time. Perfect place for chargers. In the time it takes you to pick up some groceries, you can add 100km or so to the tank. Etc etc.

Our local large supermarket has four spaces with chargers.

Thats not the point. The question is: how many parking spaces are there over there. That's your potential capacity.

If you go to the office every day, those office will have charging points.

What, for every employee that has a car?
[/quote]

Not at all. Some will charge at home or elsewhere. But even then, let's assume they all have to charge at the office. With a range of 400km and most people driving less (or much less) than 100km a day, you would need 1/4 or less of your spaces electrified.

Is that a lot of work? Cost? Obviously. But I dont see why that would be insurmountable.

[tom66]

Thats not the point. The question is: how many parking spaces are there over there. That's your potential capacity.

Exactly.  Large scale charging infrastructure is already a thing.  See this airport for instance.


If every charger at 7kW is operating simultaneously, it pulls 5MW from the grid.  I presume there's some kind of load balancing to keep the grid connection from being really silly, although it's not impossible the car park does have a 5MW supply. 

EVs already support dynamic load adaptation: if the PWM carrier changes during charging, the car must reduce its charge current within 10 seconds (in practice it's instantaneous, because it's a computer-controlled SMPS.) 

BTW:  Average car parking space costs about £15,000 to construct on a surface-level car park.  A multistorey is about £50,000.  So a £500 EV charger is peanuts in comparison.

[Marco]

The problem is even simpler than that: in some cities planning committees won't allow to put that many charging poles in a street anyway.

If they are forced to by central government there will be little for it.

I guess free standing swing arms like Chargearm are the road of least resistance. Chargebridge is cute in that the horizontal part can retract into the vertical, but a bit over-engineered. Does it really matter that it's less obtrusive when a quarter of the cars on the street are connected at any one time any way? I do like the side-emitting fiber along the cable though.

Put the poles right up at the edge of the sidewalk so private property is less of a concern, won't stop people from suing but less likely they'll win. Charger electronics either below the pavement or at the top of the pole so it doesn't take up extra space. Use right angle connectors so the cable can go straight up from the side of the car. Will probably need a retractable cable with all the mechanical failure it can cause, I don't really see a way to avoid it, it needs to be taut so it's not in the way of pedestrians.

[themadhippy]

poles with cables hanging from them lining the streets,how long before the drunks kids start attempting  tarzan  impressions  ?

[Marco]

poles with cables hanging from them lining the streets,how long before the drunks kids start attempting  tarzan  impressions  ?

Design the horizontal arm to break way in an easily repaired/reset way? Also do a camera flash when it happens.

[PlainName]

I guess free standing swing arms like Chargearm are the road of least resistance. Chargebridge is cute in that the horizontal part can retract into the vertical, but a bit over-engineered.

I was thinking something along those lines (but not as neat) earlier when perusing the narrow pavement threadlet. Certainly better than trailing cables over the sidewalk, and cheaper than under. Easier to upgrade as technology moves on, too.

[coppice]

poles with cables hanging from them lining the streets,how long before the drunks kids start attempting  tarzan  impressions  ?

At least that  sounds playful. A much bigger issue is pure vandalism.

[nctnico]

poles with cables hanging from them lining the streets,how long before the drunks kids start attempting  tarzan  impressions  ?

Design the horizontal arm to break way in an easily repaired/reset way? Also do a camera flash when it happens.

It ain't gonna work that way. Nearby they built a new bridge over a wide piece of water. It has signs saying not to dive from the bridge but guess what happens when the weather is nice...

The whole problem with curb side charging is that A) it is expensive to install and maintain and B) it will be obsolete within 10 to 20 years either due to batteries getting better and/or hydrogen taking over. It is an utter waste of money either way. And think about introduction of new plugs. Chademo is being phased out rapidly (leaving people with a 'Chademo' BEV with a car that can only be used locally). At home charging is just a crutch to bridge the shortcomings of the current crop of BEVs. It will go away.

[Marco]

Even if you could build 5-10 MW chargers to get electricity into car batteries nearly as fast as petrol into a tank, those are going to require batteries all of their own just to handle the huge surge power.  Every former petrol station would have to become a grid storage site, just to offset some of the cost.

The charging plugs will probably need a water connection too.

[tom66]

The problem is even simpler than that: in some cities planning committees won't allow to put that many charging poles in a street anyway.

The people of a town usually elect that local government, so if charging becomes an issue, they will change their opinion pretty quickly.

The bigger barriers are going to be heritage areas where the solutions will need to blend in as well as possible (but then cars don't exactly blend in with a 19th century village and that doesn't seem to be a big problem, so who knows.)

[tggzzz]

poles with cables hanging from them lining the streets,how long before the drunks kids start attempting  tarzan  impressions  ?

Design the horizontal arm to break way in an easily repaired/reset way? Also do a camera flash when it happens.

Benefactors in balaclavas will steal the copper from the cables.

[tggzzz]

The problem is even simpler than that: in some cities planning committees won't allow to put that many charging poles in a street anyway.

The people of a town usually elect that local government, so if charging becomes an issue, they will change their opinion pretty quickly.

Elections are rarely single-issue local events.

Most people vote tribally based on whether they like the government do jour.

That could be avoided if referendums are commonplace, but the chances of that happening here are zero after the Brexit fiasco.

The bigger barriers are going to be heritage areas where the solutions will need to blend in as well as possible (but then cars don't exactly blend in with a 19th century village and that doesn't seem to be a big problem, so who knows.)

As someone who has had to deal with a grade II listed house in a conservation area, that is indeed a major impediment.

Provided you can observe from a distance, it is always entertaining when one branch of the government mandates X and another mandates not-X. Typically each case is adjudicated by the courts - eventually.