Author Topic: Repair : TEMEX/SpectraTime LPFRS/LPRO 10MHz Rb generator [got GPSDO to cal]  (Read 71719 times)

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Offline TiNTopic starter

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Here's data from one Rb which I have running since 23 December 24/7, in case one want to reference..

Still waiting for GPSDO to compare with.
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Online edpalmer42

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Thanks TiN, that's helpful.  I browsed through your data and came up with the following info:
        Desired    Measured
HH - 66 to B2 - 7D to 81    perfect
GG - 33 to A8 - 15 to 2E    low
FF
EE - 66 to B2  - 55 to 53    perfect - slight downward trend due to xtal aging - their range is unnecessarily tight
DD
CC - 1A to E6  - 6F to 81    perfect
BB - 1A to E6  - 95 to AB    slight downward trend indicating rising lamp temperature (?!)
AA - 66 to E5  - DC to EF    at the top of the range

Seems like a unit that has had a long life but still has some life left in it.  You might eventually have to figure out which trimmer adjusts the xtal frequency to raise the EE value.  I don't know what to make of that downward trend on the BB value.  Maybe it's just taking a long time to stabilize.

Steve, once your unit(s) has stabilized, you can compare it to these numbers.  Your values may be different from TiN's, but the range of the values should be similar.

Ed
 

Offline TheSteve

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I've only opened one unit so far but am 100% sure they all need new caps which have been ordered and should be here tomorrow. Based on the behavior I am seeing I suspect they will all generate 10 MHz after the cap change. At that point I will let them run much longer and post some data.
The one I did put some used caps in already looks a million times better but is running wide open on the bench so any temp change alters the frequency. I also consider it the experimental one so I don't mind adjusting the various pots/trimmers to see if we can improve some of the measured parameters.

edit - I already played with the C00 and F00 values, on my units the course is 0, the fine has some very small corrections added.

And I found which pot brings the GG value up - it only takes the smallest tweak to go from from a 2x value to a 4x value - not saying the tweak is legit but it gives me hope we can possibly eek more life out of these units.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 10:33:29 pm by TheSteve »
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Online edpalmer42

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How big a frequency change are you seeing?  Since the temperatures are measured by a thermistor and controlled by the micro, I wouldn't expect much change.  Try dropping an old towel over the board.  Does that reduce the frequency variation?

Ed
 

Offline TheSteve

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How big a frequency change are you seeing?  Since the temperatures are measured by a thermistor and controlled by the micro, I wouldn't expect much change.  Try dropping an old towel over the board.  Does that reduce the frequency variation?

Ed

The frequency change is +- 10 milliHz - measured using an 53132A locked to a nice stable GPSDO. You can see it compensate for it instantly by watching the current drain.
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Online edpalmer42

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And I found which pot brings the GG value up - it only takes the smallest tweak to go from from a 2x value to a 4x value - not saying the tweak is legit but it gives me hope we can possibly eek more life out of these units.

Sounds good!   :-+ As you say, it's hard to know if the tweak is legit, but if they put a pot there in the first place it must have been to set the level.  After many years at an elevated temperature, it might have developed a bad contact.  So, how could restoring the level be bad?   :-//  That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Ed
 

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Offline PA0PBZ

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If I just power one up it does what appears to be a bit of a half hearted effort to find 10 MHz but doesn't really cycle much. It just settles at 9.999823 MHz

Yes, 9.9998224 here, at least the first one I tested. Let's see what the others can do.

Edit: I tested 3, one was ok and the other 2 settle at around 9.99982. Tested the caps in one of the failing ones and yes, they are gone. ESR of 5.5R is about 10 x too much.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 07:12:40 pm by PA0PBZ »
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Offline TheSteve

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Here are some notes and data on all five of my units - all have been running great for several days now after the fixes/tweaks noted below. I have also power cycled and cooled them and they all lock within seconds of each other.

Borrowed one of TiN's pics to mark some *possible* adjustment points. The board layout on the unit pictured may not match yours perfectly however the pots are all the same even if the 4 caps that need replacement are not. 


-The point marked GG appears to set the Rb signal level - if you think you need more Rb level you can tweak it slightly while watching the serial data.
-ADJ. B - is the pot I adjusted very slightly to get one unit that was showing a very low Rb level to suddenly jump back to life and lock. No idea what it really does. If turned too much you will lose lock
-ADJ. C - no idea what it does. I did adjust it and didn't see any change in the serial output levels but changing it too much will cause lock to be lost.


So I recommend the following:

-Power up each unit and verify they output something close to 10 MHz
-Replace the four 47uF 35v volt caps - this is mandatory! I used radial caps instead of axial as high quality ones are much easier/cheaper to source. It was easy to fit them in.
-Fire up the units and see what they do. If they lock at 10.000,000,xxx,x they are doing well - let them warm up a little and if the GG level is really low(like 20 or less) and you're feeling adventurous give it a small tweak to bring the level up to 4x or so. Levels below 20 may show 10 MHz but the lock indicator may toggle or not be stable.

If they don't lock then you may want to give ADJ. B and/or possibly ADJ. C a very small tweak - make note of the original positions!

Some other notes:

-If you find the unit tough to get apart try prying gently at the edges of the serial port.
-I had to drill a few screws on the big outside heatsink that were seized. There were really cheap screws on some and stainless steel on others.
-The units have a SMT 2 amp fuse internally, no comment on how I know this, lol. If you're unit appears completely dead check this!
-The outside pot can adjust the unit very precisely, as can the eeprom fine and course adjustments. You'll need a really good reference to fine tune them.
-All of my units now start at 9.999,500 MHz +-200Hz when powered on, the frequency tends to go down every so slightly as it warms up. When the Rb lamp fires I tend to see a very slow increase in frequency that gets faster over time. Eventually it gets really fast and should lock as soon as it hits 10 MHz - working units will not ramp past 10 MHz and then lower the frequency again, they will lock first shot.
-If you turn the GG level up too high you may see the unit lock/unlock/lock/unlock cycle a few times before staying locked. The GG level tends to start quite high and drops when the units reach full temp. If the level is too high I think it confuses the unit before the level drops.
-When a unit is working properly it should lock and stay locked, no flickering or toggling of the lock indicator at all.
-All five of my units have the course electronic adjustment set to zero, all of them have some small tweaks to the fine electronic adjustment.
-You can safely connect the serial connections direct to a standard RS232 uart/serial port.
-I added a third picture showing where accurate sources of TTL level 5 MHz, 10 MHz and 20 MHz square waves can be found if needed.
-Added 3 pics showing the output on my spectrum analyzer with a 30dB attenuator inline - all 5 units look identical. Spec is 0.5 Vrms output which is 6.99 dBm so the output level is bang on.


Results for each of my units(as pictures below):

unit #5:

This unit has had the 4 caps replaced and the magic pot tweaked a little.
Putting out a stable looking 10 MHz - 10.000,000,001,x - with 1 second samples from my 53132A with GPSDO reference the frequency is only changing +- 1mHz.
Serial output:

79 62 C3 96 85 67 AE DB
79 61 C2 96 86 68 AD DC
79 63 C2 95 86 68 AF DD
79 62 C2 96 86 69 AE DD
79 61 C2 95 86 67 AF DC
79 48 C1 95 86 68 AE DC
79 64 C2 96 86 68 AE DC
79 64 C2 95 86 69 AE DD
79 64 C2 95 86 68 AF DC
79 62 C2 96 85 68 AE DB
79 64 C2 95 86 68 AE DC


unit #4:

This unit has had the 4 caps replaced, no other changes made.
Putting out a stable looking 10 MHz - 10.000,000,001,x - with 1 second samples from my 53132A with GPSDO reference the frequency is only changing +- 1mHz.
Serial output:

8A 75 C3 A8 6E 74 AF DB
89 73 C2 A8 6E 73 AF DB
8A 71 C3 A8 6E 74 AF DC
89 71 C3 A8 6E 73 B0 DB
8A 72 C2 A8 6E 73 AF DC
8A 73 C2 A8 6E 74 B0 DB
8A 71 C2 A8 6E 72 AF DB
8A 73 C2 A8 6E 72 AF DC
8A 74 C3 A8 6E 72 AF DC
89 71 C3 A8 6E 73 B0 DC
89 6F C3 A8 6E 74 B0 DC
89 71 C3 A8 6E 74 AF DD


unit #3:

This unit has had the 4 caps replaced and the magic pot tweaked a little.
Putting out a stable looking 10 MHz - 10.000,000,001,x - with 1 second samples from my 53132A with GPSDO reference the frequency is only changing +- 1mHz.
Serial output:

78 53 BF C1 62 7E B3 DD
77 4F BF C1 62 7E B3 DD
77 3A BF C1 62 7E B2 DF
77 53 BF C1 62 7F B3 DC
78 54 BF C1 62 7E B2 DD
78 53 BE C1 62 7E B2 DE
78 51 BF C1 62 7F B2 DF
78 55 BF C1 63 7F B3 DE
78 54 BF C1 63 80 B3 DF
78 54 BF C1 62 7F B3 DD
78 53 BF C1 62 7F B2 DE
77 54 BF C1 63 7F B3 DE
78 55 BF C1 63 7E B2 DF
78 3A BF C1 62 7F B2 DC


Unit 2:

Caps changed but still no lock at all. It does show a hint of a Rb signal as it passes 10 MHz during a sweep but is very weak.

UPDATE - made a small tweak to what I have labeled ADJ. B - and it has locked just fine ever since. It is almost like the pot was just dirty and needed a hair movement to be make contact again the change was so small. This unit appears to be the weakest in the bunch as the AA level is high.

Serial data:
7A 4C C5 B1 87 68 AE E1
7A 4B C5 B1 87 69 AE E2
7A 4F C5 B1 87 68 AD E2
7A 4F C5 B1 87 68 AE E1
7A 51 C5 B1 87 67 AD E2
7A 4C C5 B1 87 68 AE E1
7A 51 C5 B1 88 69 AE E2
7A 4C C5 B1 87 68 AE E2
7A 4F C6 B1 87 67 AD E2
7A 52 C5 B1 87 68 AD E2
7A 4A C5 B1 87 68 AE E1
7A 51 C5 B1 87 68 AE E1
7A 50 C5 B1 87 68 AE E1
7A 51 C5 B1 87 68 AE E2


Unit 1:

Caps changed and locks with a solid looking 10 MHz - it is wide open on the bench still as my test unit though so no stability can yet be judged. I am sure it will be fine though.
UPDATE - all reassembled and running great so far.

Serial data:
8A 3E C3 B4 6D 72 A8 DB
8A 43 C3 B5 6D 71 A8 DC
8A 44 C3 B5 6D 71 A8 DC
8A 44 C3 B5 6D 71 A8 DC
8A 45 C4 B5 6D 72 A9 DB
8A 45 C3 B5 6D 72 A8 DC
89 43 C3 B5 6D 71 A8 DD
89 2E C3 B4 6D 70 A8 DD
89 43 C3 B5 6D 70 A8 DC
8A 43 C3 B5 6D 72 A9 DB
89 44 C3 B5 6D 71 A8 DC
8A 3E C3 B5 6D 72 A8 DB
89 43 C3 B4 6D 72 A8 DD



« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 05:13:27 am by TheSteve »
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Online edpalmer42

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You know, you're not really getting the best results out of your 53132A.  Since you're measuring 10 MHz, you're limited to 100 ns resolution when you measure frequency.  If you put your GPSDO into channel 1 and the Rb into channel 2 and then measure time interval, you'll be using the full 150 ps resolution.  Collect that data via the RS-232 port or GPIB port and you'll get more precise results.

Measuring frequency also averages the measurement over the gate time which can make things look better than they are.  Measuring time interval can be set to measure only one interval so there's no averaging

Ed
 

Offline TheSteve

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You know, you're not really getting the best results out of your 53132A.  Since you're measuring 10 MHz, you're limited to 100 ns resolution when you measure frequency.  If you put your GPSDO into channel 1 and the Rb into channel 2 and then measure time interval, you'll be using the full 150 ps resolution.  Collect that data via the RS-232 port or GPIB port and you'll get more precise results.

Measuring frequency also averages the measurement over the gate time which can make things look better than they are.  Measuring time interval can be set to measure only one interval so there's no averaging

Ed

Will do! I figure I should let them bake some more before trying to see how they are really doing. I currently have 3 GPSDO's and one of the Rb's connected to the scope with infinite persistence to see the drift.
Anyone have a script ready to go that would do the job? I can do it via serial or via a Prologix GPIB adapter or even an Agilent USB to GPIB depending on the software package required. I'd prefer to just use the windoze box I have handy, but using a Pi is also possible.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 08:25:13 am by TheSteve »
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Offline TiNTopic starter

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I've got my GPSDO.



Now it seems to need antenna, as it refuses to work with random stub antenna (likely GPRS  :-DD), giving Operation alert : Antenna.



Let's crack GPS receiver hood open:



Bundled PSU is 6VDC 2.5V brick.



Three SMB to SMA-female pigtails were included.



Module itself using Xilinx Spartan XC3S50 FPGA (U10), ISSI SDRAM, MXIC Flash with sticker 75292-00 and TI TMS320 processor. RS232 interface is converted via SIPEX SP3232E to unpopulated J5 connector. I hooked my Silabs CP2103 USB-UART to pins 11 and 12 instead.



There is unpopulated SMT connector on bottom side, perhaps JTAG?



All connected, and shield back in place:



Close-up on LDO and GPS chipset:



Serial logs:

Code: [Select]
UCCM-P >*IDN?
TRIMBLE,57964-80,50693553,V2.0.1.6-01

Stats:

Code: [Select]
UCCM-P >SYST:STAT?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 57964-80     serial number  50693553     firmware ver  2.0.1.6-01 LINK    mode
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Reference Status __________________________   Reference Outputs _______________
 XX Ref 8KHz 0: [LOS]                                                           
 XX Ref 8KHz 1: [LOS]                          TFOM     2            FFOM      3
 XX Ref 8KHz 2: [LOS]                          UCCM A Status[OCXO WARMUP]       
 XX Ref 8KHz 3: [LOS]                                                           
 XX GPS: [No Ref]                                                               
 ACQUISITION .................................................[GPS 1PPS Invalid]
 Tracking: 0 ____   Not Tracking: 12 _______   Time ____________________________
 PRN  El  Az  C/N   PRN  El  Az                GPS      00:01:29 (?) 22 Aug 1999
                      5  -- ---                                                 
                     20  -- ---                ANT DLY  -1 ns                   
                     22  -- ---                Position ________________________
                      2  -- ---                MODE     Hold                   
                     12  -- ---                                                 
                     13  -- ---                LAT      N  25:57:29.658         
                     30  -- ---                LON      E 119:31:14.779         
                     32  -- ---                HGT               +39.66 m (MSL)
                      1  -- ---                                                 
                     18  -- ---                                                 
                     26  -- ---                                                 
                     29  -- ---                                                 
 ELEV MASK  5 deg                                                               
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Coordinates are somewhere in China, so those are old ones, tested by seller.
Need bodge up GPS antenna , I assume..

Code: [Select]
               - UCCM Slot STATE-

1-1. #Now ACTIVE STATUS ---------------- [OCXO Warm]
1-2. #Before ACTIVE STATUS ------------- [OCXO Warm]
2-1. #Reference Clock Operation -------- [Not Used]
2-2. #Current Reference Type ----------- [GPS]
2-3. #Current Select Reference --------- [GPS 1PPS]
2-4. #Current Reference Status --------- [Ref LOS]
     #GPS STATUS ----------------------- [Available]
     #Priority Level ------------------- [LINK > GPS]
     #ALARM STATUS
     #H/W FAIL [ GPS LINK ]
     #OPERATION ALARM ------------------ [Antenna]
3-1. #PLL STATUS ----------------------- [DISABLE]
3-2. #Current PLL MODE ----------------- [OFFSET OBSERVATION MODE]

POSSTAT:

Code: [Select]
UCCM-P >POSSTAT

---------------------------------------------
 08/22/1999  00:09:40
---------------------------------------------
 Position: LAT(N  25:57:29.658) LON(E 119:31:14.779) H(         +39.66 m MSL)
---------------------------------------------
 Geometry: PDOP(0.0) HDOP(0.0) VDOP(0.0)
 num of visible sats >  0
 num of sats tracked >  0
  -------- Receiver Channel State --------
 CH  0 > SateID(25) TrackMode(tracking ) SigValue( 0)
 CH  1 > SateID(19) TrackMode(tracking ) SigValue( 0)
 CH  2 > SateID(22) TrackMode(tracking ) SigValue( 0)
 CH  3 > SateID(02) TrackMode(tracking ) SigValue( 0)
 CH  4 > SateID(31) TrackMode(tracking ) SigValue( 0)
 CH  5 > SateID(07) TrackMode(tracking ) SigValue( 0)
 CH  6 > SateID(28) TrackMode(tracking ) SigValue( 0)
 CH  7 > SateID(17) TrackMode(tracking ) SigValue( 0)
 CH  8 > SateID(15) TrackMode(tracking ) SigValue( 0)
 CH  9 > SateID(04) TrackMode(tracking ) SigValue( 0)
 CH  10 > SateID(24) TrackMode(tracking ) SigValue( 0)
 CH  11 > SateID(09) TrackMode(tracking ) SigValue( 0)
---------------------------------------------
 Rcvr Status(1):   
---------------------------------------------
 Antenna Voltage:  5000.00mV   , Antenna Current:     2.13mA
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Offline PA0PBZ

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I've got my GPSDO.
Now it seems to need antenna, as it refuses to work with random stub antenna (likely GPRS  :-DD), giving Operation alert : Antenna.

It measures the current to the assumed pre-amp in the antenna, but...
Quote
Antenna Voltage:  5000.00mV   , Antenna Current:     2.13mA

So how did you do that?
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Offline TheSteve

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I've got my GPSDO.
Now it seems to need antenna, as it refuses to work with random stub antenna (likely GPRS  :-DD), giving Operation alert : Antenna.

It measures the current to the assumed pre-amp in the antenna, but...
Quote
Antenna Voltage:  5000.00mV   , Antenna Current:     2.13mA

So how did you do that?

He used the command "posstat".
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Offline TiNTopic starter

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I did nothing, just hooked cable to antenna port.
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Offline PA0PBZ

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What I mean is that when you hook up a random antenna (piece of wire) I don't expect any current to flow, hence the Antenna alert.
But in the status it shows 2.13mA, something I don't expect on a random piece of wire.
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Offline TheSteve

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What I mean is that when you hook up a random antenna (piece of wire) I don't expect any current to flow, hence the Antenna alert.
But in the status it shows 2.13mA, something I don't expect on a random piece of wire.

I don't think the antenna current drain sensor is that accurate, it just gives a rough value.
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Offline PA0PBZ

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I don't think the antenna current drain sensor is that accurate, it just gives a rough value.

Sure, but it is there to warn you about damage like a broken preamp or cable, so it should not read 2mA on an open or short.
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Online edpalmer42

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You know, you're not really getting the best results out of your 53132A.  Since you're measuring 10 MHz, you're limited to 100 ns resolution when you measure frequency.  If you put your GPSDO into channel 1 and the Rb into channel 2 and then measure time interval, you'll be using the full 150 ps resolution.  Collect that data via the RS-232 port or GPIB port and you'll get more precise results.

Measuring frequency also averages the measurement over the gate time which can make things look better than they are.  Measuring time interval can be set to measure only one interval so there's no averaging

Ed

Will do! I figure I should let them bake some more before trying to see how they are really doing. I currently have 3 GPSDO's and one of the Rb's connected to the scope with infinite persistence to see the drift.
Anyone have a script ready to go that would do the job? I can do it via serial or via a Prologix GPIB adapter or even an Agilent USB to GPIB depending on the software package required. I'd prefer to just use the windoze box I have handy, but using a Pi is also possible.

Since Timelab supports the 53132A, I'd recommend it rather than any kind of script.  It supports GPIB (not sure about the Prologix adapter though), serial, and TCP/IP so you should be able to get something working.

Ed
 

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Offline TheSteve

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Yes, that is the listing.
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Offline PA0PBZ

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 I replaced the caps in one of the units that showed 9.99982 MHz and it immediately started to behave again. Both caps on the logic pcb where completely gone, showing 3 and 8uF. The 2 on the other (analog?) board looked reasonable but I replaced them anyway.
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Online edpalmer42

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What are the date codes on these units that have failed caps?  I realize that these units run hot, but it still surprises me that these caps are failing and causing problems.  What brands are the failed caps?  Do the good units use the same brand?

Ed
 

Offline TheSteve

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I believe these units all are from the 2001/2002 time period. You can actually see the ship date on every unit they made it seems:
http://www.spectratime.com/documents/lpfrs_failure_rate.pdf
I know all 5 of mine are in that list.

I have been using Timelab to log the time interval between two of the Rb units and to log the interval between a GPSDO and an Rb unit. Will post some data soon.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 08:59:55 pm by TheSteve »
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Offline Orange

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What are the date codes on these units that have failed caps?  I realize that these units run hot, but it still surprises me that these caps are failing and causing problems.  What brands are the failed caps?  Do the good units use the same brand?

Ed
The blue ones are BC components caps. This brand was a former Philips cap. I also see LL (LongLife) on the caps, and 125 deg. Celsius.
Philips caps are known to be very good. It is not the usual china junk. However after perhaps 10 years of use these things also die. No cap can survive that long in a 100 deg. Celsius environment. It is funny that the manufacturer is concerned about the depletion of the rubidium in the lamp, while the design has a much bigger risk of failing (the caps), which is well known.....

 
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