new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[Myrv]

Looks like promo's are sold out!  Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada).  Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.

Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?

I also got a quote from Testforce on Monday but I placed the order that afternoon.  They sent me a confirmation number and invoice Tuesday morning so as far as I know I've gotten in (here's hoping I don't get a surprise email tomorrow).  The quote said delivery in 6 weeks, the actual invoice doesn't give a date at all.

First time dealing with Testforce and they seemed quite responsive and helpful.  Even sent a follow-up email after the first quote that available launch packages were disappearing fast and I should decide soon.

Way more scope than I need but I was in the market (was seriously considering the SDS2204x) and  the R&S launch deal looked way too good to ignore.  Here's hoping it's not a version 1.0 dud.

[thm_w]

Looks like promo's are sold out!  Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada).  Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.
Less than 2 weeks and that's it!?  Come on R&S.  I've never purchased R&S before, nor will I now.  Pretty shady.
Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?
FYI:  This in no way reflects on my positive opinion about TestForce.  Ty was very helpful, responsive and apologetic when he learned of this treason on R&S's part.

Its not shady at all, you tried to get the promo and missed out.
Partially due to TestForce, as they don't seem to have the resources for an online ordering system or ability to display prices on the site (typical of Canadian test equipment suppliers).
Thanks for updating us though.

[tautech]

Watching your vid Mike, one comment/question.
Is the trace color scheme user configurable ?

I ask as it seems not the usual trace color scheme of: Yellow, Red/Cyan, Blue and Green for ch 4. 

[pm.llb]

Mike,

Does the kit include some PC software for arbitrary generator signal preparation ?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Mike,

Does the kit include some PC software for arbitrary generator signal preparation ?

Not looked at gen at all yet -if there is anything it will be on website.

[pm.llb]

Not looked at gen at all yet -if there is anything it will be on website.

Great. Thank you for your work. If you be so kind and check in a spare time what is exact XY screen size
it will be possible to order some tablet oleophobic screen protector during over month waiting period :-)

[nctnico]

I just looked at the teardown and it is build like the Hamegs: cheap. The PCB isn't well supported (to make things worse also parallel with the base) and the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis.  For a scope which is moved around (maybe dropped) these are very weak points.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Watching your vid Mike, one comment/question.
Is the trace color scheme user configurable ?

No, apart from the rainbow modes. They are different to the more standard colour set, maybe to better match what the RGB LEDs can render. Something that struck me just as I was going out tonight is that I'm not sure how good a fit the probe colour sleeves are to the screen colours - will check tomorrow.

I ask as it seems not the usual trace color scheme

Define "usual"... I'm used to yellow,green,blue,pink. for 1-4. Blue (at least the shade on Agilent/Keysight) sucks as it's a bit too dim.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I just looked at the teardown and it is build like the Hamegs: cheap. The PCB isn't well supported (to make things worse also parallel with the base) and the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis.  For a scope which is moved around (maybe dropped) these are very weak points.

I really don't see an issue - there is a lot of solder, and the PCB appears to be edge plated, so the solder contacts on 3 sides of the PCB, and the PCB is screwed to the chassis close to every connector.
I think you'd have to try pretty hard to break them.
The PCB itself has plenty of screws into the aluminium chassis plate.

If you consider drop-proofness an important parameter in a $2-6K scope, maybe you're looking at the wrong type of scope.

[2N3055]

I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet.  And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...

Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...

[Hydrawerk]

My DSOX2002A is built like a tank, but it is not drop resistant.

[tautech]

Watching your vid Mike, one comment/question.
Is the trace color scheme user configurable ?

No, apart from the rainbow modes. They are different to the more standard colour set, maybe to better match what the RGB LEDs can render. Something that struck me just as I was going out tonight is that I'm not sure how good a fit the probe colour sleeves are to the screen colours - will check tomorrow.

I ask as it seems not the usual trace color scheme

Define "usual"... I'm used to yellow,green,blue,pink. for 1-4. Blue (at least the shade on Agilent/Keysight) sucks as it's a bit too dim.

Usual for me is Y, P, B, G .....yet an old 2 ch Tek DSO I have is Y, B. 
It's not so confusing with only 2 colors to keep track of, 4 well that could be a different matter.

What is standard or usual if you like ? Is there some commonly accepted color scheme for channel layout ?
IMO this could be a trap for the unsuspecting and something that would take some getting used to if changing scope brands.
 

[mikeselectricstuff]

I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet.  And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...

Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...

If it was a Chinese company, or someone unknown ( or maybe Tektronix  ) , I'd totally agree that it would be a gamble . However with the bigger players you have brand reputation that give a decent level of confidence that it will be a good product. You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?
Remember why they are doing the promo - to get kit out there for visibility and word of mouth, not to clear out crappy old stock that didn't sell
They wouldn't do that if they didn't think it would stand up.
Whether it's worth the normal list price is another question of course.

[nctnico]

I just looked at the teardown and it is build like the Hamegs: cheap. The PCB isn't well supported (to make things worse also parallel with the base) and the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis.  For a scope which is moved around (maybe dropped) these are very weak points.

I really don't see an issue - there is a lot of solder, and the PCB appears to be edge plated, so the solder contacts on 3 sides of the PCB, and the PCB is screwed to the chassis close to every connector.
I think you'd have to try pretty hard to break them.

I've seen various pieces of equipment which have had an accident. Equipment with the BNCs bolted to the chassis only have damage to the BNCs. However when the BNCs are held by solder they just shear off the board and I really don't want to think what happens to a BGA on that board.

Also just connecting/disconnecting cables will be a long term problem. Tin isn't a metal which can deal with mechanical load and will fatique over time (think about brittle solder joints on TO220 packages in old TVs/monitors). There are some examples of Tektronix TDS200 series scopes which show the BNCs-soldered-to-board problems after much use.

Board flexing can be a problem even when a piece of equipment is generally handled with care. Laptop hard drives are rated to deal with several hundred Gs because of this. This is why it is better to mount a PCB in a way it is much less likely to flex when a piece of equipment is set down.

[nctnico]

You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?

If you can live with 200MHz there is an alternative for the same price and available worldwide. Some pros and cons ofcourse but all in all pretty much in the same ballpark.

[maginnovision]

I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet.  And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...

Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...

Here is my point of view. R&S is not an unknown and they have nothing to gain by releasing a few cheap scopes. That's my number 1 assurance that "blindly" putting down ~2300$ will turn out alright. The next would be the fact that for the money I can not get that much scope. If it does half of what it says I can't get that much scope for the money. The final thing which is really the thing that makes it easy to do... I can cancel my order, I can return it if I don't like it. If everyone who touches one says "Nope!", I can cancel at anytime and not think about it again. I can play with it for a couple days too, and if I don't like it then it goes right back. It's essentially no risk. The upside though... I can get a very nice little scope for a small amount of money. The closest, cheapest keysight scope would be the MSOX2024A, with a list price of 3500$. You add in the options and it's instantly a no brainer.

Let's assume the scope doesn't live up to its' specs but does work well... What are my equivalent options in this price range?

[lem_ix]

Thanks for the teardown Mike, would be great to hear about it after a few weeks of use. Seems nicely designed, wonder if it's compatible with Hameg logic probes? Guess we're only missing a drop test now, hopefully Dave can put it to the standard test soon

[2N3055]

I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet.  And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...

Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...

If it was a Chinese company, or someone unknown ( or maybe Tektronix  ) , I'd totally agree that it would be a gamble . However with the bigger players you have brand reputation that give a decent level of confidence that it will be a good product. You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?
Remember why they are doing the promo - to get kit out there for visibility and word of mouth, not to clear out crappy old stock that didn't sell
They wouldn't do that if they didn't think it would stand up.
Whether it's worth the normal list price is another question of course.

Mike, thanks for explaining.
That line of reasoning is absolutely logical.. From that standpoint, absolutely logical to buy, I understand now..  Think of it as Rigol MSO4034 with bigger screen and done well by reputable brand. Definitely worth that money.

As for full price, I'm prepared to pay more than Rigol with similar (on the paper) specs.. But not 3x, more like 30-50% more.. And they would sell like hot cakes.

For the kind of money they are asking now as retail, I will buy something else and live with it's imperfections...

Regards,
Sinisa

[kkessler]

I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube.

I bought one, and know it is a gamble, but a fully loaded scope for $2K with these specs is a fairly high reward, low risk gamble; the scope package will really have to suck not to be worth the price.  My main interest is in embedded stuff, so the MSO and protocol decodes are pretty high on my list, and it would be difficult for me to get those things for that price in any other package.  Just price out what that would be on a Keysight 2000X.  Then add a 10" screen, which, as my age advances, could be really useful.

As to personal preferences, this is a piece of test equipment, not a lifetime commitment.  My preference is that is it able to meet my requirements to tell me what is going on inside the device I'm trying to debug.  If I don't like the single vertical input, oh well, I'll get used to it.  If I don't like the fact that I can't drop it from 2 meters, I won't do that.  If I start have a new set of requirements that include dropping the scope regularly, I'll shop for a new scope that meets that requirement.

[Paul Moir]

I bought one, and know it is a gamble, ...

I don't even think it's much of a gamble.  Even if you hated it, I bet you could turn around and sell it for more than you paid.  Especially if you offered shipping to Europe. 
I'm glad the promo is over.  I was so strongly tempted to order one, but I really have no practical use for this 'scope.  Congrats to the 200 who did get one! 

[agdr]

I bought the soft case for it, RTB-Z3, just from the part number listings without being able to find a photo anywhere.  Just did some more Googling and finally found a picture:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm

Looks a little more "floppy" than the Rigol case for my 2000 series.  Velco closure too instead of snaps of some kind.  Should do the job though for normal amounts of transport.

R&S also lists a front cover, RTB-Z1.  Didn't get that one, but here is a picture from the same distributor's site:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z1-Oszilloskop-Frontabdeckung.htm

[mikeselectricstuff]

I bought the soft case for it, RTB-Z3, just from the part number listings without being able to find a photo anywhere.  Just did some more Googling and finally found a picture:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm

Looks a little more "floppy" than the Rigol case for my 2000 series.  Velco closure too instead of snaps of some kind.  Should do the job though for normal amounts of transport.

R&S also lists a front cover, RTB-Z1.  Didn't get that one, but here is a picture from the same distributor's site:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z1-Oszilloskop-Frontabdeckung.htm

E75 seems a lot for a plastic cover - pretty sure Keysight include a hard front cover - My 3000 came with one - not sure if the 2000 does.
 

[stuartk]

I was able to snag one from TestForce in Canada on Monday morning. (Sorry Zebble! ). I think at 11:00 AM I was number 3 of 10 scopes that they had allocated for Canada. They must of gone really quick.

I feel rather foolish purchasing before it has been thoroughly reviewed, however that's the risk inherent in this. What motivated me in the end was my need for a usable MSO and 4 channels.

I would place this scope in terms of specs somewhere between the:
Keysight MSOX2024A 200 MHz, 4 Analog Plus 8 Digital CA$ 4,606 with no options and the
Keysight MSOX3034T 350 MHz, 4 Analog Plus 16 Digital for a whopping CA$ 13,048 also with no options

It's possible that once it's available R&S may run promotions to boost sales. The competition has never been higher in the scope market. Hopefully it will drive competitors prices down from the stratosphere.....

BTW Mike thanks for the super quick review. Much appreciated.

[agdr]

E75 seems a lot for a plastic cover - pretty sure Keysight include a hard front cover - My 3000 came with one - not sure if the 2000 does.

I'm kind of wondering what the point in a front cover would even be with this scope.  My first thought was keeping dust out in some sort of dusty shop environment, but that won't help with the open back.  From your video it seems to me that fingerprints from actual use are going to be the screen's biggest enemy. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hard cover is handy when you want to pack the scope in a bag with other stuff. dedicated scope bag is less useful as chances are you have other stuff as well, so scope bag adds unnecessary bulk.
However those big holes in the R&S rear make it a bit riskier to chuck into a bag of tools.