REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon

[marmad]

...but FYI I'm uploading a video of the SDS scope now.

I guess Dave went to sleep before his video finished uploading 

[TomC]

Publishing another 3.3 patch file gives impression to the users of non SDS71021209xxx scopes that there is in fact some change since the version 3.2, but in fact there is none, since they got the 3.3 in the first place.

How do you account for the fact that there is definitely a change in functionality? Unless for some reason, applying the same patch twice changed things somehow. Maybe that's not too far fetched since the firmware is so flaky. With the 3.2 patch my scope would hang up every time I did a deep memory transfer via LAN, and the transfer would not complete. That stopped as soon as I applied the 3.3 patch.

[tinhead]

I have a Tekway scope and will probably do a video on that on Monday.
http://www.triosmartcal.com.au/1961-tekway-dst1102b-digital-oscilloscope-with-wide-screen-hd-display.html

oh jesus .. Dave, i'm sure you will not like it, it is very TEK like design (enclosure, menu and even "going slower when features
enabled" bug ^^). I will send you in a minute some topics what might be not visible directly (bad and good things) for you.

[Arp]

I guess Dave went to sleep before his video finished uploading 

I think I have reloaded the main page well over 20 times now.... 

[AndrejaKo]

Publishing another 3.3 patch file gives impression to the users of non SDS71021209xxx scopes that there is in fact some change since the version 3.2, but in fact there is none, since they got the 3.3 in the first place.

How do you account for the fact that there is definitely a change in functionality? Unless for some reason, applying the same patch twice changed things somehow. Maybe that's not too far fetched since the firmware is so flaky. With the 3.2 patch my scope would hang up every time I did a deep memory transfer via LAN, and the transfer would not complete. That stopped as soon as I applied the 3.3 patch.

I'm quite sure that the explanation you provided is correct. Back when I had SDS71021211xxx main board in my scope, it would from time to time freeze during power-up. Reinstalling exact same version of firmware was one of Owon's solutions to the issue and it did have an effect; the rate at which used to freeze dropped quite significantly.

Do you still have the original 3.2 firmware file? If so, try comparing them yourself and post results.

[TomC]

If you want to review a newer, low-end DSO that some members are clamoring about, you might look at the Uni-T UTD2102CM, which, according to it's specs, does 150k wfrm/s (although they don't specify where and when it does that). Since it doesn't have intensity grading or a Trigger Out, it's been hard for people trying to figure out if it actually achieves those speeds.

I have a Tekway scope and will probably do a video on that on Monday.
http://www.triosmartcal.com.au/1961-tekway-dst1102b-digital-oscilloscope-with-wide-screen-hd-display.html

The Owon has a crappy 35wfm/s, or that's the best I could get out of it. And even that drops when you turn the menu on!

Can someone list some of the benefits of a 150wfm/s refresh versus a 35wfm/s refresh. All I can think of is that the DSO with the higher refresh rate would have a better chance of catching a transient, but it still may miss it for a long time or all together. So in the end it seems that either DSO would be the wrong instrument for the job. Unless it is possible to trigger on the transient, in which case either DSO should do.

[mikeselectricstuff]

If you want to review a newer, low-end DSO that some members are clamoring about, you might look at the Uni-T UTD2102CM, which, according to it's specs, does 150k wfrm/s (although they don't specify where and when it does that). Since it doesn't have intensity grading or a Trigger Out, it's been hard for people trying to figure out if it actually achieves those speeds.

I have a Tekway scope and will probably do a video on that on Monday.
http://www.triosmartcal.com.au/1961-tekway-dst1102b-digital-oscilloscope-with-wide-screen-hd-display.html

The Owon has a crappy 35wfm/s, or that's the best I could get out of it. And even that drops when you turn the menu on!

Can someone list some of the benefits of a 150wfm/s refresh versus a 35wfm/s refresh. All I can think of is that the DSO with the higher refresh rate would have a better chance of catching a transient, but it still may miss it for a long time or all together. So in the end it seems that either DSO would be the wrong instrument for the job. Unless it is possible to trigger on the transient, in which case either DSO should do.

It's not just about transients, but also giving a more comprehensive view of what is actually happenning, as you get with an analogue scope. With low update rate all you are seeing is an occasional snapshot - which is fine for repetitive signals, but much less useful if you are looking for changes or things that happen less often.   

[TomC]

Do you still have the original 3.2 firmware file? If so, try comparing them yourself and post results.

Yes, I checked the properties on both files and they are identical. I also used Windows File Compare (fc /b [file1] [file2]) to do a binary comparison. This test  gave me the message "FC: no differences encountered". The 3.3 file I had was downloaded on 4/4/2013, one day after it was released, so I downloaded the file again today in case Owon had changed it since then. Again, the properties and the File Compare indicated that the newly downloaded file is identical to the older versions in my possession. One thing I noticed is that they changed the name of the RAR file to "SDS_Upgrade3.2and3.3.rar", however, the executable is still named "SDS_Upgrade3.2.exe".

Faced with these results, I decided to run the Patch again, hoping that it would fix the problem with image transfer via LAN, but no luck. For good measure I ran the patch one more time, again no luck. After testing deep memory transfer via LAN more thoroughly, I discovered some instances where it still causes the scope to freeze up. And even when it works it doesn't transfer as much data as when you use the USB interface.

In summary, the LAN interface only works properly for Waveform transfer. That makes it pretty useless for my purposes, so I'll have to stick to the USB interface. I had envisioned using the LAN interface to control the 7102 wirelessly from a Laptop, but even if they fix these problems there is still the issue of speed. It is extremely slow compared to the USB interface.

If anyone else is having better success with the LAN interface, I would surely like to know how you are doing it.

[tinhead]

I have a Tekway scope and will probably do a video on that on Monday.
http://www.triosmartcal.com.au/1961-tekway-dst1102b-digital-oscilloscope-with-wide-screen-hd-display.html

I think you'll make many members happy with a video about that DSO as well; since it's so well-documented and hacked (thanks to tinhead) - and it's one which many people consider when looking for a low-cost DSO. But you do realize that it's about +3 years old as well, right? 

yeah, Tekways design is from Dec 2009, on the other side there are these new "P" models with only 24kpoint memory,
they do have faster SoC/memory - but the firmware and look&feel (fw and enclosure) remains the same (i got special
version, compiled for old hardware to allow me testing, so i know that there is no difference in fw), so review of whatever
model is in principle good for all of them, even for Hantek/Extech Handhelds (as they based on same hw).

Sure, doing review on 24kpoint DSO would not show the crap slowish menu when 1M/2M enabled, so it is good that Dave
have the model with 1M (that will be pure fun, "what? what's that?).

[Hydrawerk]

At least the record length affects the waveform update rate. At Owon it doesn't.

[mswhin63]

Daves review says a lot about the original review for this thread (CRAP  ). That is the review by the way. Otherwise this thread would have died ages ago along with the scope.

Just to say there are some pretty useless reviewers out there. 

A retraction is posted.

[marmad]

Daves review says a lot about the original review for this thread (CRAP  ). That is the review by the way. Otherwise this thread would have died ages ago along with the scope.

Just to say there are some pretty useless reviewers out there. 

As the original reviewer all I can say is, you've clearly never watched the full review (which was made almost 2 years ago) - or read anything I wrote about the DSO. Almost every point Dave raised were issues I also had with the scope (UI, speed, etc) - especially the waveform update rate,which I measure in the video to show how slow it is - and explain why I'm RETURNING the DSO (which I had for about 4 weeks)!

As someone who actively and regularly contributes content to this community in an effort to be helpful to other people - and having looked through your long history of posting - I think I've leave it to others here to decide, between you and me, who is useless.

[Teneyes]

Daves review says a lot about the original review for this thread (CRAP  ).

As the original reviewer. Almost every point Dave raised were issues I also had with the scope (UI, speed, etc) - especially the waveform update rate,which I measure in the video to show how slow it is - and explain why I'm RETURNING the DSO (which I had for about 4 weeks)!

 As I watched Dave's review , I knew he had seen Marmad's review and was repeating every point, well more the bad points, even down to the shitting feet and sliding.

And I am Extremely Greatful for Marmad's many reviews that lead me to the DSO I have today  .  So good was the Info, I found the best buy sooner.

mswhin63 , go back to your hole, Whining

[Wytnucls]

Daves review says a lot about the original review for this thread (CRAP  ). That is the review by the way. Otherwise this thread would have died ages ago along with the scope.

Just to say there are some pretty useless reviewers out there. 

I watched Marmad's review again and found it to be objective and informative. It corroborates what Dave discovered in his own review, almost to a point. Your comments are totally unfounded.

[mswhin63]

As the original reviewer all I can say is, you've clearly never watched the full review (which was made almost 2 years ago) - or read anything I wrote about the DSO. Almost every point Dave raised were issues I also had with the scope (UI, speed, etc) - especially the waveform update rate,which I measure in the video to show how slow it is - and explain why I'm RETURNING the DSO (which I had for about 4 weeks)!

As someone who actively and regularly contributes content to this community in an effort to be helpful to other people - and having looked through your long history of posting - I think I've leave it to others here to decide, between you and me, who is useless.

The number of post have no relevance, I noticed most forum based experience on the number of posts so newcomers are not welcomed much. seems fairly typical of most forums that I have been involved in. My opinions are not because I have a short history here but a long technical history, 30 years in the electronics industry. I just found your review too fairy touched like you were holding back, there was no substance to it and is totally unconvincing. Now it has taken 81 pages of really hard to follow information.A good post finishes quickly.

[marmad]

The number of post have no relevance, I noticed most forum based experience on the number of posts so newcomers are not welcomed much. seems fairly typical of most forums that I have been involved in. My opinions are not because I have a short history here but a long technical history, 30 years in the electronics industry. I just found your review too fairy touched like you were holding back, there was no substance to it and is totally unconvincing. Now it has taken 81 pages of really hard to follow information.A good post finishes quickly.

Again, if you actually watched the review you don't seem to have been paying attention, since I covered virtually every point which Dave made, but I did it almost 2 years ago, before the introduction of a new generation of more powerful, lower-cost DSOs. Also, the length of this thread is much more a testimony to the few good selling points of the Owon and the lack of alternatives in this price range over the last couple of years than anything to do with my review - since I basically told people I was disappointed in the DSO and returning it. So to me (and some others as well I think) your opinions seem unfounded.

Edit: BTW, what makes your post even more nonsensical is the fact that I know of at least a few people who think/thought I was unduly HARSH on the Owon DSO with my review.

[TomC]

Daves review says a lot about the original review for this thread (CRAP  ). That is the review by the way. Otherwise this thread would have died ages ago along with the scope.

Just to say there are some pretty useless reviewers out there. 

I watched both reviews, I found them to be similar and very informative. I bought an SDS7102 in spite of the first review, I like many things about it, some others not so much. The reviews help many of us evaluate a buying decision, but you also have to look at your specific needs. That doesn't make a reviewer useless, I think both Marmad and Dave covered the main points very well, and expressed their honest opinion. To me that's what forums are all about, a place to exchange ideas and opinions. Personal attacks just sour the mood and tone of a good discussion, we can all learn from each other, and express disagreement without the need to put down others.

[rstoer]

I have a few comments on Dave's review. I’ll mention up front that I own the 100MHz version of this scope and, overall, I like it.

I fully agree with Dave’s implication that you’re throwing away your money if you spend $1,500 on an OWON SDS9302, BUT - dismissing the entire SDS line because of that is a mistake. Buying that model is like purchasing a Ford sedan with every option imaginable: You’ll wind up spending over $50,000 for a car built on a platform meant for a $30,000 model. Not a good decision when for $5,000-10,000 more you could have bought an equivalent Audi or BMW. However that doesn’t make the underlying model a piece of crap. It might be very competitive in its sweet spot of the low-to-mid thirties.

The ‘sweet spot’ of the SDS line is in the $300-500 range. If you spend $1,500 for a 9302 you get a $300 scope with 300MHz and 3.2 GS/s capability tacked onto it. Everything else is the same! The best things about the SDS line (the great screen and the huge memory depth) are tough to beat in an under $500 DSO – not so much in a $1,500 one.
Another thing about the model I own (the $429.00 SDS7102) is that it easily surpasses its stated 100MHz bandwidth - without hacks or alterations. Mine gets to over 150 MHz at the 3db down point and is functional to nearly 400MHz! Granted, the 1GS/s will limit its usefulness at those extreme limits but it’s very useable to over 200MHz.

The slow screen update seems to be the biggest complaint regarding the SDS line, and largely because of this Dave recommended the ancient Rigol 1000 series over the OWON SDS. From my point of view, there’s no way I would swap my SDS for the equivalent 1000 series model. The Rigol’s lack of dual vertical controls and limit of four measurements on that tiny low-res screen would annoy me far more than the slow screen update of the SDS. In the rare case when I’m looking for a glitch I use the persistence method that Dave demonstrated which ‘Works-a-Treat!’ (Sorry Dave).

Lastly, the scope hung when Dave attempted to save the screen to the USB card: That happens when the card is not formatted according to OWON’s specification (I know this from experience). Should the scope be so fussy about the formatting? – No, but cards are cheap and I keep one exclusively for use with mine. No problems since.

The scope is far from perfect. The PC software is very basic, and much more could be done with the firmware, but if someone handed me $500 today and said "Come back with the best scope you can find", I’d probably wind up buying another SDS7102.

[digsys]

100% agree with rstoer - well presented. Mine does EXACTLY what I need it to do, and I am mindful of the limitations.
For the price, I can pop as many as I want out in the field (none yet though) and the battery option / screen size means I'm not
wasting my life trying to setup / position waveforms as in the little hand-helds. It's PERFECT for me.

[lemon]

The Daves review is not bad!
He focused  to some disadvantage of scope like his know better!

I agree with the post of rstoer, too!
The purchase of SDS9302 is a waste of money.

The target money group of SDS Series is 400-500$ with 7102 scope.

We know all, that the plus of this scope isn't the wfps but the price, the large and crispy display, the amount of depth memory, the battery option and the easily over the 100MHz bandwidth without any hucking (almost 150-200MHz/-3dB).

For anyone, that main job with scope is glitch...the Owon SDS7102 isn't good choice. Ok there is a solution with a persistance function but it isn' a real solution it is a semi-solution!

The fw of Owon SDS is not ergonomical and some functions is missing (fine tuning for example). Instead the arrangement of buttons is quite ergonomic, for my taste.

The last one year, Owon should had improvement the firmware, like reviewers told!
They didn't! Or the development software department is not sufficient or is their choice to offer a product with a low level software (target group with low budget)

[EEVblog]

As I watched Dave's review , I knew he had seen Marmad's review and was repeating every point, well more the bad points, even down to the shitting feet and sliding.

I hadn't seen Marmads review. Ok, I may have seen it two years ago when it was posted, but I don't really remember it (although maybe subconsciously?). And I wasn't repeating it point by point.
If there are similarities it's likely because there are basic things you check and play around with on scope, and the crap/annoying stuff is pretty obvious to anyone knowledgeable who plays with it.

[EEVblog]

I fully agree with Dave’s implication that you’re throwing away your money if you spend $1,500 on an OWON SDS9302, BUT - dismissing the entire SDS line because of that is a mistake.

I'm dismissing it because it's a PITA to use, has many firmware issues and problems that I would not want in test instrument.
Note that I did say there is a case where this scope might be for you, as there is with almost every product.

The best things about the SDS line (the great screen and the huge memory depth) are tough to beat in an under $500 DSO – not so much in a $1,500 one.

Sure, if you value those features over a test instrument that is much more refined and dependable.

The slow screen update seems to be the biggest complaint regarding the SDS line, and largely because of this Dave recommended the ancient Rigol 1000 series over the OWON SDS.

Not just that, but many more reasons why it got the tumbs down and the Rigol has had a thumbs up for the last 5 years.
The Rigol is just a much more refined scope you can have confidence in.
Not to mention that it's cheaper.
IMO, while the Owon might fills a very narrow niche in the $500 price point, I'd argue that the Rigol 1000E at $350 is a better choice, and above that the Rigol 2000 beats the crap out of the Owon at the $800 price point.
i.e. what I trying to say is that most people would be wasting their money on the $500 price point.
The bang-per-buck of the $500 Owon is nothing compared to the bang-per-buck of the $800 Rigol 2000.

From my point of view, there’s no way I would swap my SDS for the equivalent 1000 series model. The Rigol’s lack of dual vertical controls and limit of four measurements on that tiny low-res screen would annoy me far more than the slow screen update of the SDS.

As always, YMMV.

[marmad]

If there are similarities it's likely because there are basic things you check and play around with on scope, and the crap/annoying stuff is pretty obvious to anyone knowledgeable who plays with it.

Sure. You can't really miss the crappy UI - especially after it pops up the third floating menu (I wonder if that was tacked on later in development after they realized they weren't going to be able to get all their info in the two menus) . In fact many of the unergonomic choices jump right out at you - making you wonder if Owon did any independent testing of their design and FW.

[lemon]

Yes the fw menus, is not right ergonomically and needs redesign from the beginning. Although with time, you learn the menus.
Owon must improve the fw with some basic functions that missing. For example fine tuning in Volts, the push button is there for this purpose!

The member marmad has suggest a method for wfps measurement, but the Owon hasn't the choice "both of" on pulse triggering. Today, I connected a Fluke45 multimeter via Trigger (P/F) output and measure the output frequency at different inputs frequencies (Fluke measures from 5Hz to 1MHz, very well).
I don't know what exactly is Trigger out of Owon but plays from 6-150Hz according to Acquire Position, Time position and dots or vertical display. If found an appropriate time, I'll prepare a presantation of these.

[rf-loop]

The member marmad has suggest a method for wfps measurement, but the Owon hasn't the choice "both of" on pulse triggering.

"marmad" have kindly suggested also other method.

Result with this other method is in this thread message "Reply #1227 on: June 09, 2013, 06:13:08 AM »"

No need scroll back, here is agen this result table:



After capture and display waveform Owon can trig agen and capture next waveform after 2.35ms and show this captured waveform also on the display. TFT update speed is of course more slower.  (and Owon trig out what is not real trig out exept with very slow speeds, just as I have told, it can ring bell in rest room that scope have trigged if it was waiting state leaved in lab.