Cheapest way to gain knowledge/education?

[ataradov]

These folks are making some pretty nice money!

Not really. $150K is decent living, but not more. Half or third of your after tax money will go towards rent, and with a salary like that you can forget to ever buy a house.

[JohnnyMalaria]

These folks are making some pretty nice money!

Not really. $150K is decent living, but not more. Half or third of your after tax money will go towards rent, and with a salary like that you can forget to ever buy a house.

?

When I left corporate America my salary was less than that and I bought a house, paid it off over 15 years and I have no loans for a cars, credit card debt etc.

About 60% of people in the US own their own home but only about 5% earn $150K or more. The median salary in the US is less than a third of that value.

If you still have to rent on that kind of salary then you're being reckless with your money.

[IanB]

Not really. $150K is decent living, but not more. Half or third of your after tax money will go towards rent, and with a salary like that you can forget to ever buy a house.

Depends on your location. In Silicon Valley that money doesn't go very far, but in Texas you could live like a king.

[ataradov]

About 60% of people in the US own their own home but only about 5% earn $150K or more. The median salary in the US is less than a third of that value.

The number was specifically about Silicon Valley. What does the rest of US has to do wit this?

Yes, it would be nice to live in Colorado and get a Silicon Valley salary.

[mtdoc]

About 60% of people in the US own their own home but only about 5% earn $150K or more. The median salary in the US is less than a third of that value.

The number was specifically about Silicon Valley. What does the rest of US has to do wit this?

Yes, it would be nice to live in Colorado and get a Silicon Valley salary.

Yes, Silicon Valley and several other high rent areas of the US are completely different. Where I live in western Washington state,  $150K salary will let you buy a very nice home.  In Seattle, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, Los Angeles, New York, etc, etc -  not so much.

Also the problem with the data on the BLS website linked by rstofer is that it only shows mean salary.  Median would be much more useful info.  I have no doubt that there are a handful of Silicon Valley software engineers being pain ridiculously large amounts of money.  It is not a normal distribution, hence mean salary is almost "meaningless" information.

[GreyWoolfe]

These folks are making some pretty nice money!

Not really. $150K is decent living, but not more. Half or third of your after tax money will go towards rent, and with a salary like that you can forget to ever buy a house.

I remember seeing on a website a home in Cali on a small lot that was fire damaged and unlivable that sold for 1.3 million dollars all due to the location, of which I can't remember.  Also saw at the time another home on a small lot that was abandoned and needed major renovations sold for $800K.  $150K a year is not going far.

[rstofer]

These folks are making some pretty nice money!

Not really. $150K is decent living, but not more. Half or third of your after tax money will go towards rent, and with a salary like that you can forget to ever buy a house.

Well, specifically, I was thinking about 'Dinks' - Dual Income No Kids.  To the extent that geeks inter-marry, getting by on $300k is pretty sweet!

Housing is going to be expensive but there is only so much dirt and there isn't going to be any more.  Houses are a terrific investment if bought right.  I bought a house in '86 for about $81k and sold it in '03 for $290k.  In the meantime, it kept me warm and dry for a lot of years.  No, it wasn't in Silicon Valley but it was close enough to have a reasonable commute - in the early years.  Later on it got to be a drag and today it is completely impossible.

But I only had one income so buying something in the Valley was pretty much out of the question.  Where I really messed up was not using a VA Loan to buy a $50k house in Milpitas back in '76.  That seemed expensive at the time but it's probably selling for the better part of a million dollars today.  And the commute would have been shorter...

[rstofer]

I remember seeing on a website a home in Cali on a small lot that was fire damaged and unlivable that sold for 1.3 million dollars all due to the location, of which I can't remember.  Also saw at the time another home on a small lot that was abandoned and needed major renovations sold for $800K.  $150K a year is not going far.

Like this one?

https://sf.curbed.com/2018/3/2/17073100/silicon-valley-house-home-sunnyvale-record-price-crisis

A post-war 850 sf house for $2 million.

You need to be careful in California's housing market.  A few years after I sold my house for $290k (mentioned above), the realtor called to ask if I wanted to buy it back for $130k.  I didn't...

I should have, it's back on the market for $300k+  I just don't have the knack for real estate!  That and I don't want to buy rental property.

[Zero999]

Having a degree is a binary thing.  You either have one or you don't and there is no middle ground.  You can have all the knowledge equivalent to having a degree, heck you could be better educated than most graduates, but it doesn't mean a thing when your resume' is trashed due to no degree.  And that is really the way it is, degree or no degree - binary.

Does it have to be a STEM degree for an engineering position or will anything pass the HR droids?

I feel some assumptions have being made about the original poster, one is that they want to go into further education for the money. If this is true, then I doubt doing an engineering degree will get the best return on their investment. I don't know about the US, but in the UK an engineering degree certainly isn't the best thing to do, purely for financial return: economics and law are probably better options.

If it's not about the money, then it might make more sense to study something completely different, get a comfortably paid job and informally study electronics for a hobby.

Hint:  It doesn't get easier as you get older.  Get started!

That's true. I have thought about topping up my HND to a degree, which I could theoretically do by studying for another two years full time (I've done a quick Google and the HND is higher than the US associate degree). In reality, I'd have to do it part time, which would involve a lot of, late nights and travelling in jammed traffic. I currently earn enough to overpay my mortgage, so there's no financial motivation there.

These folks are making some pretty nice money!

Not really. $150K is decent living, but not more. Half or third of your after tax money will go towards rent, and with a salary like that you can forget to ever buy a house.

?

When I left corporate America my salary was less than that and I bought a house, paid it off over 15 years and I have no loans for a cars, credit card debt etc.

About 60% of people in the US own their own home but only about 5% earn $150K or more. The median salary in the US is less than a third of that value.

If you still have to rent on that kind of salary then you're being reckless with your money.

Why? In some places renting makes more financial sense. It depends on whether on average, house prices annually rise much faster, in terms of the percentage, than the interest rate or not and how often one needs to move.

If house prices in your location are static, but interest on savings is good, then it makes more sense to rent and save the rest for retirement. If you need to move fairly frequently, then again, renting is the more sensible option.

Of course in the UK house prices have risen above interest for a long time, so buying is always better, than renting, unless you move more often than two years.

[rstofer]

Also the problem with the data on the BLS website linked by rstofer is that it only shows mean salary.  Median would be much more useful info.  I have no doubt that there are a handful of Silicon Valley software engineers being pain ridiculously large amounts of money.  It is not a normal distribution, hence mean salary is almost "meaningless" information.

And there are unskilled dorks pulling the 'mean' down.  Just because they have the title doesn't mean they have the skill.  BLS looks at title, not ability.  There's a lot of title creep in the industry.

I'm good with 'mean' because, in the end, it's just a comparison to other occupations.

[TimNJ]

That said, I feel that most employers will be hesitant to hire someone without any formal education altogether. There may be some more "progressive" employers willing to give you a shot, but overall, probably more limited.

Come to Australia and it's completely different. The only ones who really care about qualifications are regulated industry (medical for example), and government departments. Most in the electronics industry don't care much. Can you do the job, and do we like you are the only questions asked. Here your qualification go in a footnote at the bottom of your resume.

Yes. Would be nice if the US was more like that, but in my (limited) experience, it is not.

And I don't think many employers really care about where you went to school, or if you got a 3.0 or a 4.0, but that said, they likely will NOT call you in for an interview if you don't have some sort of relevant degree. There are arguments for and against this kind of screening process. I don't completely agree with it, but I can understand why it's like that.

[JohnnyMalaria]

If house prices in your location are static, but interest on savings is good, then it makes more sense to rent and save the rest for retirement.

Currently, interest on bank savings accounts is so pitiful (0.1 to 1% if you're luck) so the only point to save is to have a immediate source of cash to hand. In real terms, it diminishes in value. In the US, bank accounts are insured by the federal government for up to $250K should something happen. Of course, there are stock-related investments which are used to put away tax-deferred money for retirement. These aren't insured. But all you need is the fickle bunch in NY, London etc to have an emotional fit and suddenly you have to work another 5 years. It took that long for my retirement funds to recover after the 2000 crash.

[rstofer]

I don't know about the US, but in the UK an engineering degree certainly isn't the best thing to do, purely for financial return: economics and law are probably better options.

If it's not about the money, then it might make more sense to study something completely different, get a comfortably paid job and informally study electronics for a hobby.

Law pays good (sometimes) but around here there are more lawyers in the phone book than doctors and dentists combined.  Most work in family law so it's all about divorce law.  I'm not sure I would want to do that.  I guess the criminal prosecutors make a good living.

Economics?  Darned if I know.  I've never met anybody who has a degree in Econ.  It could be useful as an individual investor.

The reason I haven't met one?  There are only 1500 state-wide in California

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes193011.htm#st

There are 60 in Montana so that would be a great occupation if you just wanted to skip the rat race.

[Zero999]

If house prices in your location are static, but interest on savings is good, then it makes more sense to rent and save the rest for retirement.

Currently, interest on bank savings accounts is so pitiful (0.1 to 1% if you're luck) so the only point to save is to have a immediate source of cash to hand. In real terms, it diminishes in value. In the US, bank accounts are insured by the federal government for up to $250K should something happen. Of course, there are stock-related investments which are used to put away tax-deferred money for retirement. These aren't insured. But all you need is the fickle bunch in NY, London etc to have an emotional fit and suddenly you have to work another 5 years. It took that long for my retirement funds to recover after the 2000 crash.

The basic, bank interest rate is similar here, but I forgot that there are other investments which can get a far greater return. For example, chose a bond which is split across many different company's stocks and you're bound to get a greater return, than leaving it in the bank. Precious metals, such as gold are other things which will also reap a better return, than the banks. Again, whether any of these are better than buying a house, depends on the location.

[rstofer]

Of course, there are stock-related investments which are used to put away tax-deferred money for retirement. These aren't insured. But all you need is the fickle bunch in NY, London etc to have an emotional fit and suddenly you have to work another 5 years. It took that long for my retirement funds to recover after the 2000 crash.

And if you held on, you got everything back (except time) and then some.  If you sold out at the bottom, you took an awful hit.  You're right, it was a long dry spell.  They happen from time to time.

I wasn't doing my own trading at the time so I just rode through it.  Everything has worked out fine.

And I watch it like a hawk now that I'm retired.  I need that money.  I'm not sure why, I only take the mandatory distributions, but I have the feeling it will come in handy for medical at some point.

[Zero999]

I don't know about the US, but in the UK an engineering degree certainly isn't the best thing to do, purely for financial return: economics and law are probably better options.

If it's not about the money, then it might make more sense to study something completely different, get a comfortably paid job and informally study electronics for a hobby.

Law pays good (sometimes) but around here there are more lawyers in the phone book than doctors and dentists combined.  Most work in family law so it's all about divorce law.  I'm not sure I would want to do that.  I guess the criminal prosecutors make a good living.

Economics?  Darned if I know.  I've never met anybody who has a degree in Econ.  It could be useful as an individual investor.

The reason I haven't met one?  There are only 1500 state-wide in California

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes193011.htm#st

There are 60 in Montana so that would be a great occupation if you just wanted to skip the rat race.

You forget that most people with a law degree don't end up a lawyer and the same for economics. People who study that kind of degree, end up working in senior management, which often pays much more.

[rstofer]

Here's another side to engineering:  How many of you degreed engineers think about resolving the forces when you see a bridge?  Or you look at light fixtures in the medical clinic and remark on how they screwed up 'ceiling brightness'.  How many just like know how stuff works?  Sometimes you just know the Physics isn't in your favor.

There's more to EE school than just electronics.  Physics (two semesters) is the part I liked.  Sure, DC and AC theory was interesting, Fourier and Laplace were a grind (no calculators, hadn't been invented until I was ready to graduate), a course in statics, another in dynamics.  How about heat transfer?  Do you ever play around with Differential Equations (analog computing) just for giggles?

There were so many cool classes to take and the education stays with you, at some level, for the rest of your life.

It's fun to know stuff!

[rstofer]

You forget that most people with a law degree don't end up a lawyer and the same for economics. People who study that kind of degree, end up working in senior management, which often pays much more.

Absolutely right!  We have one in our family with a Master's in Law (Employment Law) and he has a nice job working in HR.  Very well paid!  And none of the math...

Given the paucity of Economists in California and the $77k mean income, I think these folks wasted their money on college.  The only reason I can come up with for chasing this degree is to become a stock trader.  But then the job title probably isn't Economist and there will be another BLS title with more money.

[trrway_32]

Outside of an academic institution or a large corporation, reading journal articles is outrageously expensive

There are gray area ways to obtain papers, like SciHub and Library Genesis. Also, some libraries in the US have Jstor and other subscriptions.

[trrway_32]

@TimNJ

Yeah, it's a dilemma. I do agree, if I don't get some formal credentials I limit myself from government jobs and other places. However I realize that this system of high student loans is not sustainable, and part of is just so frustrated seeing coworkers still stuck with loan payments that I want to find another way.

[trrway_32]

Hero,

I want to gain an education because, while I can and have learned on the job, I still need practice with the fundamentals (calculus, physics, etc.) if I want to step up my game, learn quicker, and work on even more complex projects.

[trrway_32]

rstofer,

Thank you for responding. Yes, I've looked in to community college in my state, though they aren't as well regarded as the ones in California. Maybe I can move just for the community college? And yes, I realize it doesn't get easier as I get older, which is why I'm slightly panicking.

I did take a year in college, and I did screw up on Calc 2 (I had some AP credits that helped cover math and electives). I do realize my mistakes and know what to change if I did go back to college. The only minor issue is that I'd be on academic probation due to the calc class.

I have substituted and complemented my learning with Khan Academy and other MOOC's.

[trrway_32]

Thank you all for responding. I did not expect this turnout.

I'm still processing everybody's perspective.

[james_s]

3. The older one gets, the more reluctant one becomes in studying. Eventually you will reach a point where your pressure from life is too high for you to quit job and go to school. Being young is a good wealth, and use it when you still have it. You have a lifetime for working, but just a few years for concentrating and studying.

The problem I had is that when I was in college I had very little income and could not afford to continue with school. I got lucky and got a job that paid fairly well but then I had no time for school. I've known people who managed to get through college fulltime while simultaneously working full time but I lack the sort of superhuman endurance required to do that. I'm just fortunate that at the time I got into the tech industry there wasn't much emphasis on qualifications. Throughout my career I've worked with some brilliant people, and some who were less than brilliant and I haven't seen a lot of correlation between job performance and the degrees they held. Of those with degrees, probably 50% had degrees in unrelated disciplines. A degree certainly helps get past HR, but it's never something I've cared about in the least when I've interviewed candidates. If anything I tend to favor those without degrees, I find they tend to be more "out of box" thinkers. Obviously this depends on the job though.

[rstofer]

rstofer,

Thank you for responding. Yes, I've looked in to community college in my state, though they aren't as well regarded as the ones in California. Maybe I can move just for the community college? And yes, I realize it doesn't get easier as I get older, which is why I'm slightly panicking.

I'm having these very same conversations with my grandson.  He's in Community College and he just aced Calc I.  That's pretty outstanding!  But there's more to do.  Oh, and I get a co-A...  Do grandfather's get credit?

Our conversations are now focused on his major.  He wants to take Mechanical Engineering and I'm pushing for Computer Engineering.  ME is boring and CE is MAGIC!

Community college is certainly a good place to start.  Take whatever is available but start now!