Keysight Scope Giveaway

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Half the problem is the uncertainty generated by the apparent inability to inform the winner's of the value.

+1

Though I would consider this to be responsible for 90% of the anger expressed 

In general (boy I'm tired of having to say that ), the value of the scope is the list price of the scope in your country.  What we can't necessarily say is if you can get away with claiming the "street price" or some lower value.

[nihtila]

I don't know if something has changed. I was told that in previous scope giveaway (when was it?) there was no tax issues so this was a bit surprise. (At least I was told so.)

And yes, it clearly says in the conditions that the winner is responsible for the taxes. Luckily Keysight has been helpful trying to sort this out, at least I feel so. I actually do read those conditions before participating, I always think "I will then see the tax situation if I win" - the fact being that I just have never won before.

[rx8pilot]

The simple solution is back to the posting direct to the winner from Malaysia.  But tell the winner the declared value and let them decide if they want the scope, a cheaper scope or to decline the prize.
Half the problem is the uncertainty generated by the apparent inability to inform the winner's of the value.

The approximate value is known so a potential winner can get pretty close. It does seem strange that an exact figure is hard to come by. Any shipping out out Malaysia has to generate an invoice ahead of time so it cant be all that difficult.

Sent from my horrible mobile....

[continuo]

In general (boy I'm tired of having to say that ), the value of the scope is the list price of the scope in your country.  What we can't necessarily say is if you can get away with claiming the "street price" or some lower value.

Claiming a lesser than the declared value? Try this on a German customs officer and he will be like  ->

One second thing: If the parcel is imported by a Distributor, which seems to be the case if the reports here are correct, he has already paid the VAT on import. I don't think he would be willing to give you any discount out of his own pocket on the expenses he already had, while handing the scope to you, claimed imaginary street-price or not.

Oh, and please, is someone able to point me to an official Keysight list price chart? I couldn't find any. All their website let me do is request a quote from one of their Distributors, which then seems to be the Distributors lower "house price" but not the presumably higher "list price"? 

[Howardlong]

Half the problem is the uncertainty generated by the apparent inability to inform the winner's of the value.

+1

Though I would consider this to be responsible for 90% of the anger expressed 

Then don't enter the competition. Seriously, how hard can this be?

If you don't like the terms and conditions, you are under no obligation to enter. What part of that is so difficult to understand?

[Howardlong]

In general (boy I'm tired of having to say that ), the value of the scope is the list price of the scope in your country.  What we can't necessarily say is if you can get away with claiming the "street price" or some lower value.

Claiming a lesser than the declared value? Try this on a German customs officer and he will be like  ->

One second thing: If the parcel is imported by a Distributor, which seems to be the case if the reports here are correct, he has already paid the VAT on import. I don't think he would be willing to give you any discount out of his own pocket on the expenses he already had, while handing the scope to you, claimed imaginary street-price or not.

Oh, and please, is someone able to point me to an official Keysight list price chart? I couldn't find any. All their website let me do is request a quote from one of their Distributors, which then seems to be the Distributors lower "house price" but not the presumably higher "list price"? 

Did you ever try Google? It's not exactly hard for a reasonably astute goat to get a reasonable idea of the value and be able to ascertain a reasonable figure for any tax liabilty.

Why are you getting so uptight about it? In what way has the organiser disadvantaged you by running the competition? Did you lose you first born or something as a result of this?

If you don't like the terms and conditions, you're under no obligation to enter the competition.

[Towger]

Did you ever try Google? It's not exactly hard for a reasonably astute goat to get a reasonable idea of the value and be able to ascertain a reasonable figure for any tax liabilty.

MSOX3104T price in euros

€9,500 : http://www.otcireland.com/product.php/666/0/msox3104t-oscilloscope--1-ghz--4-plus-16-digital-channels
They also have an ex demo for €8,500.

€13,741 : http://www.mercateo.com/p/269-MSOX3104T/Keysight_MSOX3104T_Oszilloskop_4_16_Kanal_Touch_Screen_1_GHz_bis_5_GSa_s_1_Mio_wfm_s_4_MPts_segm_Speicher.html?redirectedFrom=msox3104t

€14,166 : http://www.datatec.de/Keysight-MSOX3104T-Oszilloskop.htm and http://www.yeint.fi/index.php?main=64&productCat=874&productID=25743


These are the street prices, I can find any list prices... 

Daniel, can you provide a link to your list prices for each country? Thanks.

[rx8pilot]

Then don't enter the competition. Seriously, how hard can this be?

If you don't like the terms and conditions, you are under no obligation to enter. What part of that is so difficult to understand?

Agreed. Even if the exact numbers are not known - the approximate value is easily known and you can nail down what the tax implications are. If you can't figure that out, you will not be able to figure out the prize either - so why bother?

[Howardlong]

There you go, plus any options, of course. Assuming they're being thrown in as they have been recently the tax liability at circa 20% is about €3k.

Or does Germany not use the actual street price when calculating import tax? I can imagine importing just about anything from China will be interesting in that case!

[Brumby]

Maybe they should have restricted the scope giveaway to businesses and exclude private individuals completely. No problems with poor nagging students and hobbyists (who couldn't afford scopes of this caliber anyway) and no problems with VAT taxation, because businesses are used to it and able to pay a few K€ "out of their petty cash" without even thinking to much about it.

No.

People need to take responsibility for their actions.  <=== Please read that again.

Read the T&C - understand what they say - check out what you need to ... and then decide if you want to enter.

Keysight have made it fundamentally clear who has responsibility for taxes, etc - and yet are still bending over backwards to try and help keep the winners happy.  They can't get involved in the tax intricacies for each individual - or it'll likely cost them more than the prize is worth.  Certainly dealing with businesses will be easier since a business won't bleat about the customs and tax environment - they'll just work within it.

BUT I would NOT want such a competition limited in a way that excludes me because somebody else thought individuals would be 'difficult' even though the promoter doesn't.

[Macbeth]

There you go, plus any options, of course. Assuming they're being thrown in as they have been recently the tax liability at circa 20% is about €3k.

Or does Germany not use the actual street price when calculating import tax? I can imagine importing just about anything from China will be interesting in that case!

This would only apply when using a personal delivery using customs, where they have to go on declared value. If they don't believe it then they can magic up their own value and will find their own opinion of RRP themselves and apply that. You can then appeal. They will want to see some transactions to support this.

However, that is moot. Keysight have already said the scope will come from a local distributor. This makes total sense - why would they go out of their way sending these by Malaysia Post and sending someone to the post office when they already have a FOB customs brokered setup to all their distributors for mass shipments anyway?

Clearly any distributor does not pay HMRC the full whack of any fanciful MRRP when importing goods. They pay the tax at the ACTUAL COST OF GOODS to them. But this is only a fleeting moment of insanity because they will already have exemptions so as not to piss about with HMRC by paying the VAT and immediately claiming it back and all the nonsense paperwork back and forth involved. Because ultimately it becomes a 0% VAT to the distributor - ALL INPUTS ARE 100% VAT DEDUCTIBLE. Only when the distributor sells to a final customer (and not a business) will the final VAT rate be realised to HMRC and that is the final invoice value.

The distributor cannot invoice MSRP for a free prize. They can invoice MSRP and apply 100% discount. Or if they only want to charge £1, £100, £1000 or whatever they can do that too - and the VAT will be 20% of that price - but of course with no discount the "winner" is then liable for that and has to pay it, and Keysight Distributor has to account for it in the profit & loss. We don't want corporation tax fraud here as well do we?

...and of course it can go as a promotional "sample" which is also 100% VAT free.

I really don't see any issue with this if Keysight is delivering by normal channels that are already set up, and not just getting some random clerk taking them to Malaysia Post office on his lunch break for deliveries to individuals.

...Now Dave's second hand dumpster find - that will have to go through the usual customs if sent ordinary post. IF they decide to snaffle it (like the Germans seem to love) they will take whatever description and face value is on it and charge your courier that, who will then add on their own charges too. If they are total Nazis they will open up the package and inspect and then take 3 months to find the highest possible MRRP to get tax on and present their invoice. You are free to decline and the package will be sent back.

[grimmjaw]

all of this  talk  of tax, VAT can be solve by selecting the winner from malaysia (which not listed in the T&C).. No shipping hassle, no custom.
perhaps someone like me 

[Macman]

For me I would be quite happy to accept one of these scopes for 20% of its normal price. It was made quite clear in the terms and conditions that taxes would be the responsibility of the recipient. I really don't think it's reasonable for people winning one of these scopes to complain so much, if they have made a mistake just decline the prize.
I would think all this hassle about taxes would make Keysight much less likely to conduct a completion like this in the future.

[nihtila]

For me I would be quite happy to accept one of these scopes for 20% of its normal price. It was made quite clear in the terms and conditions that taxes would be the responsibility of the recipient. I really don't think it's reasonable for people winning one of these scopes to complain so much, if they have made a mistake just decline the prize.
I would think all this hassle about taxes would make Keysight much less likely to conduct a completion like this in the future.

That may be true but the hassle has nothing to do with this discussion or complaints here. It is not even much about winners' complaints, mostly just other people trying to prove how taxes should go. But yes, some people at Keysight have been using time figuring out different tax regulations in various countries and it can affect their will to do it again. But then again, it should not be a surprise for them as a company, and at least next time they know how it goes.

[Brumby]

I would think all this hassle about taxes would make Keysight much less likely to conduct a completion like this in the future.

I'm inclined to disagree.

As I see it, the purpose of conducting such a promotion as this is to get people's attention for a broader business objective.  While such objectives can be served by giveaways, they will continue to be run.

If a winner has tax issues, then that is an issue with one individual - the masses that didn't win have still been touched by the magical idea of having one of the products for their very own.

[Brumby]

Further...

In this particular instance, Keysight now have their new brand out in the wild - and it will continue to spread by word-of-mouth.

[hopski]

Further...

In this particular instance, Keysight now have their new brand out in the wild - and it will continue to spread by word-of-mouth.

It is sometimes said that no publicity is "bad" publicity and in this case I would tend to agree. there are a lot of people who would have previously never dreamed of owning one of these scopes who are now "dreaming" of having one of these scopes.

[Augustus]

That may be true but the hassle has nothing to do with this discussion or complaints here. It is not even much about winners' complaints, mostly just other people trying to prove how taxes should go. But yes, some people at Keysight have been using time figuring out different tax regulations in various countries and it can affect their will to do it again. But then again, it should not be a surprise for them as a company, and at least next time they know how it goes.

You're one of the lucky winners, right? What's your personal decision, will you accept the prize and pay $3K out of your own pocket? Will you decline it? Will you opt for a cheaper scope, if they still offer it? Sorry, just personal curiosity 

[Taucher]

@KEYSIGHT: Why not simply save the hassle and customer-frustration and take some marketing budet to ship DDP ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incoterms )

Also this should allow to declare the manufactured price as it's the only real cost that really did happen - most likely that sum including shipping and taxes will still be less than the list-price.
If necessary you could even declare it a special/different product - slap on a sticker "Winner-Edition" and declare a corresponding price - we're not living in communism where prices are dictacted by the government

[Macman]

I would think all this hassle about taxes would make Keysight much less likely to conduct a completion like this in the future.

I'm inclined to disagree....

I sincerely hope you're correct and the tax issues does not stop Keysight running any competitions like this again. Maybe they could list for each country the a rough estimate of tax costs and get the contestant to confirm that they will pay this tax if they win.

[nihtila]

You're one of the lucky winners, right? What's your personal decision, will you accept the prize and pay $3K out of your own pocket? Will you decline it? Will you opt for a cheaper scope, if they still offer it? Sorry, just personal curiosity 

Current information is that I do not need to pay anything but I will see as the situation tend to change.

If there was a payment, I would accept the prize but probably needed to go for a lower bandwidth model. I do want to have the 4+16 channels but for example 200MHz costs 3-4 times less than the 1G model and is perfectly adequate for a hobbyist not working on HF stuff.

And regarding choosing the model, as has been said, the winners do not know what would be the price they need to pay the taxes for. Although someone said this is insignificant, in my opinion it is not. For example, the actual price the scopes sell can be even a third lower than the list price. And if we are comparing 10k or 15k, there is a significant difference in taxes, especially when taken from a hobbyists wallet. And I am not complaining about the issue stated in T&C but it is something you do want to know before deciding to accept or decline your prize.

[Towger]

There is no such thing as bad publicity.

Keysight are getting good value for their money for scopes they sent Dave.

If I won I would accept the prize and see what happens in the end. In reality I could probably reclaim the VAT, if any through work.
If I get stuck for it then I would pay the VAT. What the wife thinks of me spending 3k on a scope is another story. The fact I would be about 20% the RRP would not wash...

But many people would not have the 3k to pay to receive the scope. Even if they plan to sell it.

[Howardlong]

@KEYSIGHT: Why not simply save the hassle and customer-frustration and take some marketing budet to ship DDP ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incoterms )

Also this should allow to declare the manufactured price as it's the only real cost that really did happen - most likely that sum including shipping and taxes will still be less than the list-price.
If necessary you could even declare it a special/different product - slap on a sticker "Winner-Edition" and declare a corresponding price - we're not living in communism where prices are dictacted by the government

That is how they ship scopes from Malaysia that you have purchased on the Keysight Ebay store. I already addressed this in the other infamous Sebastian W thread.

You make an offer/BIN the item without taxes, and then Keysight tell you how much it is with the tax which and you then pay the total including tax. If you are a VAT registered company you can then offset the tax on your next VAT return, but not otherwise. They base the tax on the ebay price they accepted, not a list price, so what price they would base it on for a prize I don't know.

If you think somehow the tax just disappears you are deluding yourself. If the German government that you elected sees fit to levy taxes based on the worst case, then you need to lobby your government.

There is already direction from HMRC (UK tax man) on this and that is that VAT is payable on non-cash prizes with transferable value, with the taxable value calculated at the non-discounted price.

From day 1, you've had several options.

1 Don't enter the competition
2 You don't win
3 You win then wait until you know the tax liability, if any, and either
  - pay it
  - decline the prize
  - request a lower value item

The vast majority of people will be either 1 or 2. If you are lucky, you will be 3, and no, your life will not be ruined despite the cries that the sky was falling in. You will never be worse off than you were before the competition ended.

You are being naïve if you assume that any tax liability on an international non-cash prize draw levied by the government you elected will be slurped up by someone else. If there is no liability then great, but I would not assume that.

[Augustus]

Current information is that I do not need to pay anything but I will see as the situation tend to change.

This would really be good news but unfortunately, I don't believe it. As KeySight_DanielBogdanoff several times wrote: The winners are responsible for all taxes, which, in your case (UK), seems to be 20% VAT on the list price of the scope in your country (see reply #350 in this thread).

http://www.keysight.aspen-electronics.com/msox3104t

Regular price of the scope in the UK = £10.352
20% VAT on that = £2.070 (this is your part)


If you opt for an DSOX3024T (200 MHz, 4 channel):

http://www.keysight.aspen-electronics.com/dsox3024t

£3.004 -> your part ~£600

They are also currently running a promo, where you get the equivalent MSO for the same price as the DSO, this may or may not be eligible, if you choose the lesser prize, I don't know. May be worth asking them:

http://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=DE&lc=ger&ckey=2704029&nid=-32541.1150350&id=2704029

[ProBang2]

Current information is that I do not need to pay anything but I will see as the situation tend to change.

This! 

Don´t make yourself any sorrows about the propositions of some wild guessers and strongly believers.
KS handle it the same way as they had done it as Agilent: You have to pay nothing.
The same applies for winners in germany.
And in the EU. (At least for the VAT, except other possible, local taxes, if any.)

Congratulations!!!   
Enjoy your winning!
Have fun with your new scope and don´t let the magic smoke out!