Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters

[HighVoltage]

Silent hint : we'd love to see some foto's and hear some first imperssions 

+1
Which of the two models did you get and how much did you pay?

[AndyC_772]

UK pricing isn't too bad either, at least, not compared to the 34461A - but true to form, Keysight have made some of the best features optional, and padded the price considerably.

From Farnell, the basic 34461A is £709, and the 34465A is £901 (both plus VAT).

Want to use the digitiser feature, though? That's another £258.
Access to the full memory of the device? A further £161. (Seriously... memory chips are NOT expensive these days!)

[Sbampato12]

Want to use the digitiser feature, though? That's another £258.
Access to the full memory of the device? A further £161. (Seriously... memory chips are NOT expensive these days!)

The point is, it is not the memory chips, they are already there probably. You are paying for the development, or something like that...

[AndyC_772]

I don't mind paying for features that take time and effort to develop. I spent about £600 on serial decoding for my Agilent scope, and it was well worth it.

Enabling the use of memory that's already there is just removing an arbitrary limit, though. There's no design effort, no innovation.

They've done something similar with their BenchVue software. The basic version is free, which is great, but if you want to data log for more than 1 hour, you have to buy the 'pro' version for another £128 (and even more, if you want to log data from other types of instrument).

[6thimage]

Want to use the digitiser feature, though? That's another £258.
Access to the full memory of the device? A further £161. (Seriously... memory chips are NOT expensive these days!)

The point is, it is not the memory chips, they are already there probably. You are paying for the development, or something like that...

The digitiser and memory option are just software keys (like the NISPOM option), the hardware is exactly the same.

I don't mind paying for features that take time and effort to develop. I spent about £600 on serial decoding for my Agilent scope, and it was well worth it.

Enabling the use of memory that's already there is just removing an arbitrary limit, though. There's no design effort, no innovation.

They've done something similar with their BenchVue software. The basic version is free, which is great, but if you want to data log for more than 1 hour, you have to buy the 'pro' version for another £128 (and even more, if you want to log data from other types of instrument).

I agree - we shouldn't have arbitrary memory limits in modern devices.

I am a little annoyed with the CSV output on the 34461A, despite having an RTC, it just provides a list of readings. From looking at the manual, the equivalent in the 65/70A can have meta data at the top, saying when the data started and the gap between measurements. But that haven't done it so you can grab the CSV off the meter and graph it straight away (with the time on the x-axis), which seems to be a bit of an oversight.

I tried the first version of bench vue and I didn't think very much of it - it just didn't seem to work very well. And I think that is the feedback they got about, as they have overhauled a lot of it, with the new pro version being there for them to recoup their losses. For multimeters, the pro version is needed for limit testing, the histogram display and greater than 1 hour recording. Whilst I can understand limit testing being in a pro version, the whole advantage of the software is easy data capture over reasonable periods of time, so to limit it to less than an hour seems stupid. For the £128 I would much prefer to whip something up in python (especially considering I already have the USB TMC interface implemented).

They also do an iphone / android app, which I thought was a bit of a strange idea - I can't see many people using it except at trade shows. I tried the original version (when it was ios only) and it was awful, it crashed so often and displayed results incorrectly. But the old version communicated directly with the multimeter over a network (wifi-router-ethernet). The new version (with both ios and android support) requires a computer to be connected to the multimeter, with the app talking to the computer, which, to me at least, seems to negate any advantage of the app.

[Howardlong]

I'll test the water here.

What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?

I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.

Please educate me!

[Sbampato12]

I don't mind paying for features that take time and effort to develop. I spent about £600 on serial decoding for my Agilent scope, and it was well worth it.

Enabling the use of memory that's already there is just removing an arbitrary limit, though. There's no design effort, no innovation.

They've done something similar with their BenchVue software. The basic version is free, which is great, but if you want to data log for more than 1 hour, you have to buy the 'pro' version for another £128 (and even more, if you want to log data from other types of instrument).

Yep, I agree with you, I was just pointing that.
On other side, doing this kind of thing, they could (it is only a possibility) get the hardware cheaper since it is one hardware to all. The people that really need those extra options, and buy, helps (more) to pay the development of the product for all. One way, and only just one (  ) to see it, is, as hobbyst or small company you are capable to buy a little bit better product, if they charge more in the extras. And if you need that extra, then, you PROBABLY doesn't matter to pay for it (or choose other brand).

Personally, I don't like to know that exist a lot of memory avaliable inside my gear, and I do not could use..... And, for me, as a bench DMM, they could apply all extras as standards, see how many years they have the 34401 or 3548, so many years you dissolve your costs of development, and get over others brands (perhaps) by some capabilityes.

[Sbampato12]

I'll test the water here.

What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?

I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.

Please educate me!

If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.

[Howardlong]

I'll test the water here.

What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?

I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.

Please educate me!

If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.

But what are those cases? 

[mrflibble]

If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.

But what are those cases? 

Measuring the long term stability of that new Calibratory D-105 DC Precision Voltage Reference Standard.

[Corporate666]

I'll test the water here.

What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?

I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.

Please educate me!

If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.

But what are those cases? 

Well, testing voltage and current references for one.

Or what if you have an application where you're using a high quality ADC to measure something and you want to check your results in testing before releasing something to the field?  Or for calibrating a device using an ADC prior to shipment.  Or anytime that having a more accurate result is valuable... light sensing, temperature sensing, or whatever.

I don't think there is any parallel to audiophoolery, because an 8.5 digit DMM will actually have that level of resolution and accuracy, whereas audiophoolery is about expensive products that don't actually do anything at all. 

[LabSpokane]

Speaking of strange options, does anyone know if the LAN port is enabled or disabled by default on the 34465A?  Keysight says yes. Testequity says no. Keysight does not respond to inquiries except to forward me to Microlease, which I find mildly irritating. Yeah, I'm a one man band with no volume , but this is a simple question. :-/

=============================================================
The forum's resident Keysight lurker saw my question and asked an engineer.  Turns out that the LAN port is enabled as part of the base price unit for the 34461/65/70A. 

[LabSpokane]

Is it OK for us to *not* have another debate on the merits of digits?  Just when you thought that horse gave its last whinny... 

[6thimage]

Speaking of strange options, does anyone know if the LAN port is enabled or disabled by default on the 34465A?  Keysight says yes. Testequity says no. Keysight does not respond to inquiries except to forward me to Microlease, which I find mildly irritating. Yeah, I'm a one man band with no volume , but this is a simple question. :-/

If by enabled you mean it is not an option, then yes - to my knowledge you only have to pay extra for it on the 34460A (where the probes are also an optional extra).

[AndyC_772]

The only time I've used all the digits on my 6.5 digit meter is to observe the resistivity of copper increasing with temperature. I did some testing on a power cable a couple of years ago, and it was quite interesting to see the rate of change of current with time as the cable warmed up. A meter with less resolution wouldn't have shown it nearly so clearly.

[teddy529]

BenchVue iPhone/Android version is just a joke...

and on the memory size thing ->

[Howardlong]

I'll test the water here.

What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?

I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.

Please educate me!

If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.

But what are those cases? 

Well, testing voltage and current references for one.

Or what if you have an application where you're using a high quality ADC to measure something and you want to check your results in testing before releasing something to the field?  Or for calibrating a device using an ADC prior to shipment.  Or anytime that having a more accurate result is valuable... light sensing, temperature sensing, or whatever.

I don't think there is any parallel to audiophoolery, because an 8.5 digit DMM will actually have that level of resolution and accuracy, whereas audiophoolery is about expensive products that don't actually do anything at all.

What I was trying to understand though were the practical end uses. So, what practical end user device would that ADC be in for that you need that level of absolute accuracy, other than another DMM or voltmeter?

For audio or RF, for example, I wouldn't be using a DMM to measure the performance of an ADC.

Sorry, I am not trying to be difficult, I am just genuinely trying to understand what practical use cases there are for such a device other than "because you can", which is of course an option.

As far as I understand there are very limited real practical uses for such a device, but they will look nice on the bench.

In fact I was expecting the answer to be more along the lines of tracing trends rather than absolute measurement, but even then I would expect the applications to be rather limited.

[georges80]

The Fluke 8845A that I have was originally purchased for its very low current measuring capability versus a typical hand held meter.

So, at least in my case the 6 1/2 digits wasn't nearly as important as the ability to measure nA accurately. i.e. bench meters of this caliber have other features that come 'for free' that may be more important in the purchase decision that the number of digits.

I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it

cheers,
george.

[Howardlong]

So, at least in my case the 6 1/2 digits wasn't nearly as important as the ability to measure nA accurately.

I can completely understand that, that makes a lot of sense.

[EEVblog]

I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it

Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.

[6thimage]

One thing I've found a 6.5 digit multimeter really useful is measuring the current of a microcontroller. Not because it was drawing a tiny amount, but because the difference between the burden voltages of adjacent ranges was enough that it triggered the micro's brown out logic. With the 6.5 digits being enough to give a decent level of precision on the higher range.

[Tom45]

Anyone know who has the 34465A in stock in the US?

[georges80]

I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it

Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.

Yep, I guess we'll all be doing slow discharge tests of batteries next to justify our 6 1/2 digit meters I work with battery powered designs all the time, haven't seen the need for measuring battery discharge with a 6 1/2 digit meter yet. An electronic load with logging to a laptop has been much more useful for my use when characterising a battery.

I have a 6 1/2 digit bench meter (got it free), use it occasionally, but certainly wouldn't rush out to buy one and I am designing/working with electronics every day. I agree that there are 'some' applications where it is needed, but I'll stick to my original claim that only a small fraction of users actually NEED one.

cheers,
george.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.

Haven't tried it but I wonder if the effect of temperature variations is more than that of discharge by the time you get to the 6th digit...

[DJ]

Low load battery drain measurements by voltage are very useful. Especially for things running months and years, vs hours or days.

The 34465a looks like the one for me. Keysight's list of distributors and resellers could use some tweaking.