8-bit uC - is there even a point?

[JPortici]

dsPIC33 are all 3.3v parts and not very low power.

dsPIC33EV is a 5V part, i use it in a lot of projects.. It needs 2 to 5 jumpers (depending on how may pins you are willing to sacrifice) to make it compatible with PIC18s, if you care about that.
But that doesn't matter, most new projects are going to be dsPIC33CH. sweet sweet dual core

About the PIC24 (KA)... I may still have PTSD, they were my very first 16bitter in high school and to this day i still have problems with them. And they are really "dumb" compared to the newer 8bitters, as you saw yourself.
Sure you have a core that's easier to deal with but the peripherals are just meh (to me)

[Howardlong]

dsPIC33 are all 3.3v parts and not very low power.

dsPIC33EV is a 5V part, i use it in a lot of projects.. It needs 2 to 5 jumpers (depending on how may pins you are willing to sacrifice) to make it compatible with PIC18s, if you care about that.
But that doesn't matter, most new projects are going to be dsPIC33CH. sweet sweet dual core

About the PIC24 (KA)... I may still have PTSD, they were my very first 16bitter in high school and to this day i still have problems with them. And they are really "dumb" compared to the newer 8bitters, as you saw yourself.
Sure you have a core that's easier to deal with but the peripherals are just meh (to me)

Yes, you're right there a 5V parts too, but they need voltage regulators too, my point was around the additional BOM requirements for that: in single cell Li devices, you can forego that with these PIC24FxxKA/KL/KM devices. I regularly use the KM devices which are pretty well set up with peripherals, both analogue and digital. If you need to do a bit of number crunching, they are a reasonable solution, PIC16s are almost all weak in that area. A bonus was differential ADC, and dual DAC with external outputs: there are plenty of use cases for that dual output DAC, and no many microcontrollers offer them, especially with external outputs. I had discounted the PIC16 as I didn't think it would have the number crunching horse power, but with the PID accelerator my view changed. The math accelerator is a real PITA to learn how to use though!

[technix]

dsPIC33 are all 3.3v parts and not very low power.

dsPIC33EV is a 5V part, i use it in a lot of projects.. It needs 2 to 5 jumpers (depending on how may pins you are willing to sacrifice) to make it compatible with PIC18s, if you care about that.
But that doesn't matter, most new projects are going to be dsPIC33CH. sweet sweet dual core

About the PIC24 (KA)... I may still have PTSD, they were my very first 16bitter in high school and to this day i still have problems with them. And they are really "dumb" compared to the newer 8bitters, as you saw yourself.
Sure you have a core that's easier to deal with but the peripherals are just meh (to me)

Yes, you're right there a 5V parts too, but they need voltage regulators too, my point was around the additional BOM requirements for that: in single cell Li devices, you can forego that with these PIC24FxxKA/KL/KM devices. I regularly use the KM devices which are pretty well set up with peripherals, both analogue and digital. If you need to do a bit of number crunching, they are a reasonable solution, PIC16s are almost all weak in that area. A bonus was differential ADC, and dual DAC with external outputs: there are plenty of use cases for that dual output DAC, and no many microcontrollers offer them, especially with external outputs. I had discounted the PIC16 as I didn't think it would have the number crunching horse power, but with the PID accelerator my view changed. The math accelerator is a real PITA to learn how to use though!

Single cell Li-po and 3.3V parts... That is a pain to design. So far my best bet is actually abusing a battery bank chip TP5410 into pushing out 4.7V regardless whether the power is connected or not (by default it switches the output off when external power is applied) then regulate it down to 3.3V using AMS1117, SPX3819 or TPS52200. I am not completely sure about those buck-boost chips and their current capability.

[SiliconWizard]

Single cell Li-po and 3.3V parts... That is a pain to design.

Yeah. I usually try and select parts that work down to 3V or below, and regulate the battery to this voltage with an LDO. (If you don't need your main 3V as a reference, you may even not regulate it at all, but in this case you have to use parts that can handle up to 4.2V, and 3.3V parts usually can't operate at above 3.6V, so that severly limits your options.) Most of my battery-operated designs are powered at 3V or even lower (if I can), such as 2.7V or 2.5V. So no need for a step-up regulator, which has two drawbacks: reduced efficiency obviously (especially at low currents) and a current draw on the battery that increases as the battery empties - which is often bad for the battery's life and may even damage it if not protected properly.

[westfw]

I don't understand the lack of love for that series [PIC24]

I think that in general, 16bit microcontrollers didn't get a lot of traction because the first "resource" that people were running out of was memory - either program memory or flash memory.  And the 16bit chips tended to have the same sorts of memory sizes and awkward bank switching schemes as the 8bit chips.  The sort of 256k/64k flash/ram configurations you can commonly get for cheap with a 32bit CPU is practically unheard of in the 8bit world (and somewhat unpleasant to use if you can find it.)
("because kids today write bloated code with bloated libraries to implemented bloated GUIs.   I remember when WordStar and MINCE would ...")

[maginnovision]

I used an avr8 with extra 128k sram to get 256k/64k(120k)rom/ram and with the XMM I/F it was completely transparent other than extra cycle to read/write to it.

[technix]

Single cell Li-po and 3.3V parts... That is a pain to design.

Yeah. I usually try and select parts that work down to 3V or below, and regulate the battery to this voltage with an LDO. (If you don't need your main 3V as a reference, you may even not regulate it at all, but in this case you have to use parts that can handle up to 4.2V, and 3.3V parts usually can't operate at above 3.6V, so that severly limits your options.) Most of my battery-operated designs are powered at 3V or even lower (if I can), such as 2.7V or 2.5V. So no need for a step-up regulator, which has two drawbacks: reduced efficiency obviously (especially at low currents) and a current draw on the battery that increases as the battery empties - which is often bad for the battery's life and may even damage it if not protected properly.

The battery bank chipset I used comes with both a linear charger (similar to TP4056) and a fixed 5V step-up regulator in one SOIC8-1EP package, I just need to give it a charge current control resistor, a power inductor and a Schottky diode to make it all work. It is rated for 1A maximum output current.

[Howardlong]

Single cell Li-po and 3.3V parts... That is a pain to design. So far my best bet is actually abusing a battery bank chip TP5410 into pushing out 4.7V regardless whether the power is connected or not (by default it switches the output off when external power is applied) then regulate it down to 3.3V using AMS1117, SPX3819 or TPS52200. I am not completely sure about those buck-boost chips and their current capability.

This was actually one of my applications: use the PIC as a switch mode charge regulator and low current power supply, as there wasn't a single device off the shelf that did what I wanted: gas gauge, charger, power supply. Having a device with a reasonably wide voltage range (2.0 to 5.5V for PIC24FV, 2.3 to 5.5V for PIC16F1xxx well suited to 5V (USB) Li charging, and running off the Li battery without external regulators. It did mean external MOSFETs though. The PIC16F161x has a pair of 100mA drive outputs, useful in lieu of gate drivers. I use a Cuk topology to allow an output voltage higher or lower than the Li source.

[Fungus]

So my question is - what are 8-bit uC still used for (in new designs).

Anything that runs off 5V.

As a hobbyst, is there still a point in using them

Of course. It's not all about price. 8 bits is still overkill for many, many jobs and can really simplify life.

[technix]

This was actually one of my applications: use the PIC as a switch mode charge regulator and low current power supply, as there wasn't a single device off the shelf that did what I wanted: gas gauge, charger, power supply. Having a device with a reasonably wide voltage range (2.0 to 5.5V for PIC24FV, 2.3 to 5.5V for PIC16F1xxx well suited to 5V (USB) Li charging, and running off the Li battery without external regulators. It did mean external MOSFETs though. The PIC16F161x has a pair of 100mA drive outputs, useful in lieu of gate drivers. I use a Cuk topology to allow an output voltage higher or lower than the Li source.

TP5410 is a combo charger and power supply, the only thing missing would be the gas gauge. That chip is actually a bit wasteful as it is a linear charger and a fixed 5V output non-synchronous boost converter combo, but for low cost applications there is little other options than TP5410 + resistor + inductor + two diodes.

Attached is the board photo of that power section: the SO-8 chip in the middle is TP5410, that and a few components around it makes the 3.3V power delivery section. The Li-po is on the back of the board. The input voltage to the AMS1117 is 4.V for USB power and 5V for battery power.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Of course. It's not all about price. 8 bits is still overkill for many, many jobs and can really simplify life.

And 4 bits better yet...

[coppice]

Of course. It's not all about price. 8 bits is still overkill for many, many jobs and can really simplify life.

And 4 bits better yet...

4 bitters aren't so easy to get outside Japan these days.

[Fungus]

Of course. It's not all about price. 8 bits is still overkill for many, many jobs and can really simplify life.

And 4 bits better yet...

If it's enough, then, sure...

I don't know of many 4 bit chips though. Even the tiniest uC are 8 bits these days.

eg. https://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/ATtiny4

[legacy]

16bit ... 68HC16 ... never seen, never used 

[coppice]

16bit ... 68HC16 ... never seen, never used 

Motorola developed two cores - the CPU16 (the core in the 68HC16) and the CPU32 (based on the 68000 core) - at the same time, intending to mix and match a set of modular peripherals and these two cores to suit a wide range of needs. It turned out most people were either OK with Motorola's existing HC05/HC08 or HC11 cores, or needed the performance of the CPU32.

[langwadt]

16bit ... 68HC16 ... never seen, never used 

Motorola developed two cores - the CPU16 (the core in the 68HC16) and the CPU32 (based on the 68000 core) - at the same time, intending to mix and match a set of modular peripherals and these two cores to suit a wide range of needs. It turned out most people were either OK with Motorola's existing HC05/HC08 or HC11 cores, or needed the performance of the CPU32.

they also have (had?) the coldfire which was also ~68k and the m.core which afair was very similar what ARM became with cortex and thumb2

[chickenHeadKnob]

Anything that runs off 5V.

Turning that around and looking at starting requirements from the other end of the telescope, what if you want true 5V outputs and not just 5V tolerant and must have 32 bit core?
I know of:
  Cypress PSOC4 arm cortex m0
  Cypress PSOC5 arm cortex m3
  Atmel/Microchip SAMC20 and 21     automotive series cortex m0+ these  additionally are one of the few mcu that have CAN FD

Are there any others? including obscure non-arm 32 bitters?

Motorola developed two cores - the CPU16 (the core in the 68HC16) and the CPU32 (based on the 68000 core) - at the same time, intending to mix and match a set of modular peripherals and these two cores to suit a wide range of needs. It turned out most people were either OK with Motorola's existing HC05/HC08 or HC11 cores, or needed the performance of the CPU32.

moto HC05. Yuck. Any youngling that still yearns for the 8 bit era should be forced, as I was, to program these register starved memory deficient craptastic things. That will cure you.

[coppice]

Motorola developed two cores - the CPU16 (the core in the 68HC16) and the CPU32 (based on the 68000 core) - at the same time, intending to mix and match a set of modular peripherals and these two cores to suit a wide range of needs. It turned out most people were either OK with Motorola's existing HC05/HC08 or HC11 cores, or needed the performance of the CPU32.

moto HC05. Yuck. Any youngling that still yearns for the 8 bit era should be forced, as I was, to program these register starved memory deficient craptastic things. That will cure you.

The HC05 was one of the most successful MCU families. It was a key part of what made Motorola the biggest MCU maker in the world.

[langwadt]

Anything that runs off 5V.

Turning that around and looking at starting requirements from the other end of the telescope, what if you want true 5V outputs and nott just 5V tolerant and must have 32 bit core?
I know of:
  Cypress PSOC4 arm cortex m0
  Cypress PSOC5 arm cortex m3
  Atmel/Microchip SAMC21     automotive series cortex m0 these are nice because additionally they are one of the few mcu that have CAN FD

Are there any others? including obscure non-arm 32 bitters?

afaik Freescale, now NXP, has a bunch of Cortex-M and PowerPC for automotive that are 5V supply and IO

[chickenHeadKnob]

Motorola developed two cores - the CPU16 (the core in the 68HC16) and the CPU32 (based on the 68000 core) - at the same time, intending to mix and match a set of modular peripherals and these two cores to suit a wide range of needs. It turned out most people were either OK with Motorola's existing HC05/HC08 or HC11 cores, or needed the performance of the CPU32.

moto HC05. Yuck. Any youngling that still yearns for the 8 bit era should be forced, as I was, to program these register starved memory deficient craptastic things. That will cure you.

The HC05 was one of the most successful MCU families. It was a key part of what made Motorola the biggest MCU maker in the world.

Oh I have first hand experience with the popularity part as well. Some time after Moto bought or merged with GM-Hughes the auto sector snarfed up all available supply and they went on allocation. Couldn't get one for love or money, almost sank/bankrupted  the small manufacturer I was working for.

[coppice]

Motorola developed two cores - the CPU16 (the core in the 68HC16) and the CPU32 (based on the 68000 core) - at the same time, intending to mix and match a set of modular peripherals and these two cores to suit a wide range of needs. It turned out most people were either OK with Motorola's existing HC05/HC08 or HC11 cores, or needed the performance of the CPU32.

moto HC05. Yuck. Any youngling that still yearns for the 8 bit era should be forced, as I was, to program these register starved memory deficient craptastic things. That will cure you.

The HC05 was one of the most successful MCU families. It was a key part of what made Motorola the biggest MCU maker in the world.

Oh I have first hand experience with the popularity part as well. Some time after Moto bought or merged with GM-Hughes the auto sector snarfed up all available supply and they went on allocation. Couldn't get one for love or money, almost sank/bankrupted  the small manufacturer I was working for.

That would have been around 1994 or 1995, right? The issue wasn't acquisitions. They badly screwed up resource allocation across the board. Sales grew faster than they could scale their factories. Efforts to use outside fabs hit many stumbling blocks. Combine this with the fact that the needs of Motorola communications always came first, and everything else a poor second. They had a lot of angry customers who really liked a Motorola chip but were suddenly unable to get quantities of it as they reached mass production. The backlash from this is a big part of why Motorola fell from their number 2 position in the semiconductor world.

[legacy]

[..] HC11 cores, or needed the performance of the CPU32.

Indeed all the boards I have seen in micro-robotics are boards are either hc11 (e.g. HB by MIT) or 683xx (e.g. MR by MIT); never seen hc16, but I know it existed. The question is ... who used it? And for what?

HC12 comes with a fuzzy-engine that is missing on both HC11 and 683XX, but the HC16 has it.

[chickenHeadKnob]

That would have been around 1994 or 1995, right? The issue wasn't acquisitions. They badly screwed up resource allocation across the board. Sales grew faster than they could scale their factories. Efforts to use outside fabs hit many stumbling blocks. Combine this with the fact that the needs of Motorola communications always came first, and everything else a poor second. They had a lot of angry customers who really liked a Motorola chip but were suddenly unable to get quantities of it as they reached mass production. The backlash from this is a big part of why Motorola fell from their number 2 position in the semiconductor world.

No a decade earlier, 1984-85. Not long after the plastic dip one-time programmable 6805 first came out. There were actually many boom-bust shortages with motorola, but the one that I was remembering was caused by auto makers starting to use  the parts big time.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

That's the birth of ECUs, when cars were moving from carburetor to EFI.

[chickenHeadKnob]

That's the birth of ECUs, when cars were moving from carburetor to EFI.

Only sort of contemporaneous, there were already  ECUs designed in 82 or so. Typically either an 8051 or intel 8096. I am reasonably certain the 8096 was designed initially for a Robert Bosch ECU. The first 8051 ECUs were not fast enough for control loop every revolution, instead had averaged control. I don't think anyone used a 6805 for engine control but could be wrong. It was the start of a massive influx of mcu's in other secondary control circuits, from radios to what-ever. The first antilock brakes were already common but the first generation was not done with digital control. It was some type of analog mechanical mechanism. Then Motorola came out with the 68xxx around 1986, can't remember the part number but it was the initial mcu that offered the crazy complicated 4 channel timer control unit,  before the first coldfires. The motorola  app-engineer taunted us in a seminar "guess what application and customer those timer channels are for"