Keysight Scary Letter

[vtwin@cox.net]

Indeed.

Personally I wouldn't even respond until I've seen an outcome from someone else. You have no obligation to do so.

You're not likely to ever see such a thing. Any settlement is (very likely) going to be protected by a non-disclosure agreement. If Keysight agreed, for example, to give you a brand new spiffy top-of-the-line ITEM X in exchange for your 20 year old version, they probably do not want the word to get around too much, since the next person might be willing to take a 10 year old Item X in exchange rather than a spiffy brand new one.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The reality is that they will unleash the lawyers and you will either loose the property, or will be in for a legal battle.

No, because they have no legal claim. if they had, they would have said so in the original letter. All they are doing is asking you not to sell it on.
You are quite entitled to ignore their request, and they have not indicated any legal repercussions of you doing so. 

They also have no way to prove that you still had the equipmnent when you received the letter.

If they did try to persue it all you need to do is tell them you no longer have it. They would have nothing to gain by going any further.

[vtwin@cox.net]

But not responding at all is a valid course of action. Especially given that they don't seem to respond back.

Like health-related issues, ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Indeed.

Personally I wouldn't even respond until I've seen an outcome from someone else. You have no obligation to do so.

You're not likely to ever see such a thing. Any settlement is (very likely) going to be protected by a non-disclosure agreement. If Keysight agreed, for example, to give you a brand new spiffy top-of-the-line ITEM X in exchange for your 20 year old version, they probably do not want the word to get around too much, since the next person might be willing to take a 10 year old Item X in exchange rather than a spiffy brand new one.

But even a recipent under an NDA could simply say that it had been worth their time in talking to them.

The lack of any reported response leads me to suspect they are initially waiting to see what respnse they get before considering if it's worth doing anything at all. Whatever the initial reason, if they can only be sure of recovering, say 20% of the gear, is that any worse than none of it ?

[coppercone2]

But not responding at all is a valid course of action. Especially given that they don't seem to respond back.

Like health-related issues, ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.

This is horse shit. Its nothing like a medical issue. Its a harassment issue.

[KaneTW]

The worst case would be that Keysight or the original owner drags you in an extensive legal battle, which you will lose even if you win simply by legal costs.

Stop stirring up drama. Or do you think that a lawsuit will go away if you just ignore it? Try to prevent escalation, instead of being a hotheaded child.

[vtwin@cox.net]

But even a recipent under an NDA could simply say that it had been worth their time in talking to them.

Maybe. You may not be allowed to speak about it at all, depending on the terms.

The lack of any reported response leads me to suspect they are initially waiting to see what respnse they get before considering if it's worth doing anything at all. Whatever the initial reason, if they can only be sure of recovering, say 20% of the gear, is that any worse than none of it ?

I do agree that is odd.

Of course you could always respond "I sold it for cash on craigslist and have no idea who the buyer was" and then keep it. Such a response isn't made under pains and penalties of perjury, so unless you're asked to sign an affidavit to that effect....

[vtwin@cox.net]

This is horse shit. Its nothing like a medical issue. Its a harassment issue.

I understand that such a childish outburst may be emotionally satisfying, but, as they say, actions have consequences, and perhaps it would be wise to take a moment to analyze the potential consequences.

Having a deputy sheriff or constable show up one evening at your door with a summons to appear in district court is unlikely to give you a warm and fuzzy feeling the evening it happens. Naturally, you could likewise ignore it as well, but the consequences of those actions usually involves the terms "summary judgement" or "bench warrant".

[langwadt]

But even a recipent under an NDA could simply say that it had been worth their time in talking to them.

Maybe. You may not be allowed to speak about it at all, depending on the terms.

The lack of any reported response leads me to suspect they are initially waiting to see what respnse they get before considering if it's worth doing anything at all. Whatever the initial reason, if they can only be sure of recovering, say 20% of the gear, is that any worse than none of it ?

I do agree that is odd.

Of course you could always respond "I sold it for cash on craigslist and have no idea who the buyer was" and then keep it. Such a response isn't made under pains and penalties of perjury, so unless you're asked to sign an affidavit to that effect....

[Mr. Scram]

Like health-related issues, ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.

I know how to make it go away. Considering Keysight hasn't given any valid or reasonable argument for their actions the items can still be freely traded on the open market. IP isn't something that concerns anyone but the company itself. As they're taking the legal approach they do seem prepared to cause people all kinds of trouble, so I don't mind taking any of this equipment off people's hands. I'll give you a statement to prove you don't own the equipment any more and we'll get it transported outside of Keysight's legal reach. Problem solved.

[nctnico]

Like health-related issues, ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.

I know how to make it go away. Considering Keysight hasn't given any valid or reasonable argument for their actions the items can still be freely traded on the open market. IP isn't something that concerns anyone but the company itself. As they're taking the legal approach they do seem prepared to cause people all kinds of trouble, so I don't mind taking any of this equipment off people's hands. I'll give you a statement to prove you don't own the equipment any more and we'll get it transported outside of Keysight's legal reach. Problem solved.

Well copyright pretty much reaches world-wide. You have to realise that most of these devices run some kind of firmware. When it comes to software you receive a license to use the software by the copyright owner. The copyright owner can revoke that license. In theory Keysight can require you to send the copies of their software back (and rendering the equipment useless). IMHO this is why the lawyers choose to go the intellectual property route. You can own the hardware but you can never own the software!

[coppercone2]

This is horse shit. Its nothing like a medical issue. Its a harassment issue.

I understand that such a childish outburst may be emotionally satisfying, but, as they say, actions have consequences, and perhaps it would be wise to take a moment to analyze the potential consequences.

Having a deputy sheriff or constable show up one evening at your door with a summons to appear in district court is unlikely to give you a warm and fuzzy feeling the evening it happens. Naturally, you could likewise ignore it as well, but the consequences of those actions usually involves the terms "summary judgement" or "bench warrant".

]

your not pablo escobar man, thats what I mean they are harassing you to make you feel like your a criminal if you don't comply with some ridiclous shit. Nothing is gonna happen like that, you just tell the sheriff I never checked my mail sorry be polite.. its not the gestapo.

Don't be so scared of law enforcement. And that won't happen. That's serious methhead thinking man. You think some guy is gonna get info off ebay to deal with some crazy shit to make the police come to your house?? 

[ataradov]

Well copyright pretty much reaches world-wide. You have to realise that most of these devices run some kind of firmware. When it comes to software you receive a license to use the software by the copyright owner. The copyright owner can revoke that license. In theory Keysight can require you to send the copies of their software back (and rendering the equipment useless). IMHO this is why the lawyers choose to go the intellectual property route. You can own the hardware but you can never own the software!

For sure. Can you describe the procedure of returning that software? I would gladly do so.

I don't think this copyright logic applies to embedded software like this. It makes no sense, and I don't think there is any precedent here.

[nctnico]

Software is software. No matter what form it is in.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The worst case would be that Keysight or the original owner drags you in an extensive legal battle, which you will lose even if you win simply by legal costs.

So unlikely it's a non-issue.
They would need to present some evidence - probably the only way would be if it was stolen, in which case they have already stated that was the case.
If they did get legal, returning the equipment would be the end of it. That is the
 worst-case outcome.

Any attempt to get "heavy" would have massive publicity repercussions.

Never gonna happen, based on the total lack of any legalesd in their initial letter. 

[Jr460]

Been following this for bit.

Do have any old HP/KS test gear personally, no.   So I have not gotten a letter.

I suspect something like this happened.   Gear was used a high controlled area.   

The rules are like a RAID Roach Motel, they check-in and never check-out.   Gear, papers, things can go in.   Nothing comes out without being shredded  or completely destroyed.   Even when it is ground down, it gets mixed with more metal from non highly controlled areas.   Then that whole bit is melted down and then sold as scrape metal.

Someone goofed up and removed the gear and didn't follow the right process.   It was sent to DMRO and they sold it in a large lot.  That company sorted things out and tossed real junk, and sold the rest on eBay.

Now someone at the facility realized the mistake.   Where is serial number XYZ, what pile of metal dust is it?  Think, think, don't want to tell the new owner what is up.   Let's see if we can pay KS to "swap" them units and we get back they one that should have been melted down, and we can close that out of the inventory system once we have it back and correctly scrape it.

Ebay seller is helping by giving names of people they sold the things to, KS is helping and getting paid to help recover the gear.   Neither makes the rules, they are just doing their part to get the gear back.

HP/KS has delt with this type of thing before.   If you have gear on a maint contract in a special area, there is a standard up charge for them not getting back defective parts to refurbish.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Software is software. No matter what form it is in.

Copyright is irrelevant here as you did not sign any license agreement. By posessing equipment you are not committing any copyright infringement.

[Mr. Scram]

Software is software. No matter what form it is in.

I'd love for Keysight to show us the signed terms of our agreement. Hell, I'd even settle for proof I ticked a box with "I agree". That tactic isn't going to fly in most of the world, where EULA aren't worth the bits it's stored with. Get the equipment there and the problem is gone.

[tinhead]

oh my gosh … all this is why i tend to buy old gears from israelian sellers. Sure, sometimes one get still bit radioactive units, but there are no issues at all with customs or any kind of scary letters, as these gears didn't exists at all.

[nctnico]

Software is software. No matter what form it is in.

Copyright is irrelevant here as you did not sign any license agreement. By posessing equipment you are not committing any copyright infringement.

Sorry, but that is not how copyright works. The copyright owner always has full control over the work. Even if you didn't sign some kind of agreement it is implied. Please read more about how copyright works and how much power a copyright owner -legally- has.

[Towger]

Having a deputy sheriff or constable show up one evening at your door with a summons to appear in district court is unlikely to give you a warm and fuzzy feeling the evening it happens.

That is a very expensive option for them, in both reputation and legal costs.  It would be far cheaper to have the local sales agent arrive at your door with the latest model of your item and offer a swap.

[RoGeorge]

Chill down guys, you are all at the Candid Camera. 

A company (otherwise nice enough to organize giveaways with tons of top notch equipment for makers and engineers every year) was just curious how people will (over)react to such a letter.
Nobody wants that lot anyway, it was heavily contaminated! 

[KaneTW]

Having a deputy sheriff or constable show up one evening at your door with a summons to appear in district court is unlikely to give you a warm and fuzzy feeling the evening it happens.

That is a very expensive option for them, in both reputation and legal costs.  It would be far cheaper to have the local sales agent arrive at your door with the latest model of your item and offer a swap.

That's presumably what they're trying to do. But some people think that digging your heels in even before hearing an offer is a good idea.

[Mr. Scram]

Sorry, but that is not how copyright works. The copyright owner always has full control over the work. Even if you didn't sign some kind of agreement it is implied. Please read more about how copyright works and how much power a copyright owner -legally- has.

That really isn't how copyright works. You don't retain control over a work after it's sold, unless this is agreed upon by both parties. That'd be unworkable and ridiculous, which is itself means it's void in many places.

[Towger]

Please read more about how copyright works and how much power a copyright owner -legally- has.

Far less than you think. What is says in books and reality are two different things.  'We' have taken cases and won, it costs about +50k a go.  Winning and getting any money are two different things.