New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope

[Creep]

Pretty sure there are a lot of cases when you just want to see a measurment value of a signal and afterwards you don't need it. In that case one would just push to turn it on, and push it again after a second to turn it back off. So yeah, that would be kinda nice.

[marmad]

Pretty sure there are a lot of cases when you just want to see a measurment value of a signal and afterwards you don't need it. In that case one would just push to turn it on, and push it again after a second to turn it back off. So yeah, that would be kinda nice.

I certainly agree that would be handy - but I'd prefer it as an added behavior, as opposed to replacing the Delete/Recover feature.

[Creep]

That's true. I never suggested it to replace the current system, just think it would be a nice addition.

[David Hess]

The earliest Tektronix DSOs with automatic measurements have a similar problem with the user interface although all of their measurements are accessible from one menu.  In order to replace or remove a measurement, the identical measurement has to be selected from the menu using cursor keys (and no up key!), turned off, and then another may be added to the end of the list.  This made sense since they had a very limited number of soft keys.  I do not remember how their later DSOs with measurements distributed across multiple menus handled this.

I would prefer some way to highlight the existing measurement instead of going through the menus to selecting it again.

[Chryseus]

Got an email from Batronix:

On 21st October you have ordered a Rigol DS1054Z.

Herewith, we would like to inform you that your requested device is not available yet.

At the moment, we are waiting on two deliveries from Rigol for this device. The estimated time of arrival for the first delivery lies between December 8th - 12th. The second delivery approximately at the end of January.

Due to your position in our waiting list, you will receive a device from the first delivery.

We are apologising for this delay. The demand for this devise is unexpectedly high. Rigol itself can currently not manufacture as many devises as needed at the moment.

If the time of waiting is too long for you, you are welcome to choose a similar product from this series. We grant you a 8% discount because of the special circumstances.

Best regards,

Thorsten Schliszio

Being in the second delivery would suck. 

[kwass]

There is no bug. Whether you like it or not, it's just a feature Rigol has implemented to try to offer easier access to often-used measurements without having to, for example, page through 4 menus while trying to locate a specific Vertical or Horizontal measurement for a second time in a session.

If you're correct and Rigol intended it to work this way than surely power cycling once cleared should not remove all measurements from the display so that they lose their greyed-out status.   I'd say it's a bug one way or another.

[marmad]

If you're correct and Rigol intended it to work this way than surely power cycling once cleared should not remove all measurements from the display so that they lose their greyed-out status.   I'd say it's a bug one way or another.

I don't see any bug in the behavior.

[Creep]

We are apologising for this delay. The demand for this devise is unexpectedly high.

Are they seriously suggesting they didn't see this comming? It's probably the best bang-for-buck scope ever made... Can't see any other reason to release the scope at such a price without the intention of turing the whole market upside down.

[David Hess]

We are apologising for this delay. The demand for this devise is unexpectedly high.

Are they seriously suggesting they didn't see this comming? It's probably the best bang-for-buck scope ever made... Can't see any other reason to release the scope at such a price without the intention of turing the whole market upside down.

I would expect availability to be impacted if they are expecting to recall oscilloscopes because of serious problems unless they want to pay even more to repair them under warranty.  Or they might sell them anyway knowing that most users will not notice before the warranty expires.

How does the DS1000Z series measure up in bugs-for-buck?

Hopefully all of the current DS1000Z issues can be fixed with firmware updates.

[Creep]

How does the DS1000Z series measure up in bugs-for-buck?

Probably a lot better than most other budget scopes (I'm looking at siglent, hantek, owon etc.). And if your talking about the AC triggering issue: people have been using the DS2000 series scopes for two or three years now (don't remember exact year of it's release) without issues and whining about it. So I'm pretty sure the importance of the bug is severely exaggerated. Sure it's a bit of a nuisance but it sure as hell isn't the worst bug scopes have had.
Comparing the scope to an Agilent or a Tektronix counterpart would be a bit unfair considering the vast price difference, not even taking into account the fact that even they have their own issues.

[tautech]

How does the DS1000Z series measure up in bugs-for-buck?

Probably a lot better than most other budget scopes (I'm looking at siglent, hantek, owon etc.). And if your talking about the AC triggering issue: people have been using the DS2000 series scopes for two or three years now (don't remember exact year of it's release) without issues and whining about it. So I'm pretty sure the importance of the bug is severely exaggerated. Sure it's a bit of a nuisance but it sure as hell isn't the worst bug scopes have had.
Comparing the scope to an Agilent or a Tektronix counterpart would be a bit unfair considering the vast price difference, not even taking into account the fact that even they have their own issues.

So your tolerance to bugs is price related?
For a piece of test equipment......seriously?

People rightly expect these things to be accurate, their designs and projects rely on it.
Looks like one releases "supposedly" completed gear on the market hopeing that many won't or can't recognise its shortcomings....seems like the modern marketing way. 
The worry is OUR tolerance to this and the ongoing diminishment of OUR expectations of PRECISION equipment.
Statements like Probably a lot better than most other budget scopes (I'm looking at siglent, hantek, owon etc.). This does not help expectations (owners or manufacturers) and is wildly incorrect.

Siglent's SDS2000 series was ALWAYS identified as "a work in progress"....it still is.
But it suffers NO jitter at any timebase, any delay settings, and whether DC or AC .
Siglent have always been proactive and transparent to improve their products and their regular EEVblog participation is proof of this.

[Bert Camper]

NZ Siglent Distributor......

[i4004]

tautech, could you predict the results of the poll about how many rigol users would know about this if it wasn't for people tinkering with everything.

measuring is not tinkering with everything.

creep is correct, there is a fair amount of exaggeration going on here...

now we have all sorts of bugs
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dso-trigger-position-offset-w-ac-coupled-trggering-ds2000-mso1000/msg557017/#msg557017



but will that prevent me from using the scope?
nope.

perhaps i'll find some more, but...heh....none of these bugs is really "into your face" type of bug...

tell me about alternatives in that price range?
Siglent SDS1102CML ?
memory depth?

also, when did this

Rigol itself can currently not manufacture as many devises as needed at the moment.

happen last time in the world of dsos?

here's the deal: that scope is excellent value for money even if they never fix any of the bugs reported.
now, how will you prove me wrong?
you'll suggest we all need ac trig and absolute precision when scrolling thru the 'live' waveform?
meh...
i can't even mention the third thing i linked above, it's just too silly....

we should all report these bugs (or better to say emind ourselves of them) when we bump into them while using the scope for a purpose (not just play), then it would all seem a bit different...heh...

again, rigol should correct it, but these are small bugs for most of us.
and others will probaby have a 'proper' ( ) scoep to check against.

People rightly expect these things to be accurate, their designs and projects rely on it.

i don't expect perfection in any human or any machine humans make.
is there a better scope for 350eur?
see?

bert

NZ Siglent Distributor......

[Simon]

I slightly miss the better quality of my old rigol versus my new 200MHz owon where basically they decided to throw the kitchen sink at it but for quality. It's "auto display" function that is basically the crude equivalent of the auto function that worked perfectly on my rigol is a peice if shit as it slowly and mechanically cycles through all of the settings and it does not even work so it's far easier to do it manually.

[tautech]

Did I slag Rigol?   NO
Did I question value for money?   NO
Did I offer a comparable product as better?   NO

BTW there are further bugs revealed in the last day or so.

My argument is of the reduction in quality (irrespective of price) of some lower cost test equipment in general. Should we continue to suffer this?
Once upon a time we shunned new gear knowing there WILL be problems in early versions.
This applied to all manner of product; cars, tractors, trucks, chainsaws .......
So it seems there is a much increased tolerance of acceptance of unfinished/incomplete products in the marketplace. 
Well not from me. 
Seriously this is a worrying trend, one I'm sure manufacturers have great delight in exploiting.

NZ Siglent Distributor

I have never hidden this fact, when I registered here I posted my website link for all to see but it seems that was not enough to keep everybody happy.
Much later I was PM'ed by a Moderator and asked to show my affiliation plainly in my posts.
Out of respect of the Forum I happily complied.
If one cares to look at my contribution you will see the majority has been general electronics related as is my passion for electronics.
If one only knew how many manufacturers/suppliers were members you'd all be shocked.
Not all openly reveal their affiliations.
So frown/angry? Really?

[Simon]

Fact is that development and manufacturing costs have come down on things like oscilloscopes so everyone wants one but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes. On the whole you get about what you pay for.

[tautech]

Fact is that development and manufacturing costs have come down on things like oscilloscopes so everyone wants one but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes. On the whole you get about what you pay for.

Very true, but some don't understand that compromises in design like a 1 Gsa/s ADC shared by 4 channels will result in substandard performance.

[i4004]

Seriously this is a worrying trend, one I'm sure manufacturers have great delight in exploiting.


If one cares to look at my contribution you will see the majority has been general electronics related as is my passion for electronics.
If one only knew how many manufacturers/suppliers were members you'd all be shocked.

i would just like people to discuss the problems they had with a particular piece of gear, 'politics' aside.
i dunno if we (thus far) saw a report where any rigol bug was a make it or break it type of problem when scoping(?)
i don't see these bugs as such an  important issues.
those who do can try moneyback or simillar strategies....if firmware upadate doesn't fix it etc.

to me it's enough i know about them and i know how they affect measuring.
so i can "compensate" even if they never make new firmware OR if i never apply it even if they make it...

so if anybody asked me what scope to buy at this price range, there still is no issue this is the best-buy at the moment.
we'll know if/when somebody beats rigol in this field...field they just created with this scope...heh...technology to the people....cheaply 

[Creep]

Don't know about you guys but I can live with a few bugs as long as I'm aware of their existance and they are not random. As someone before me on this forum used to say: knowladge of the drawbacks of our equipment let's us work around those drawbacks if we keep them in our minds. If I know AC triggering has issues, fine, I just won't use it. If I know turning some option (hopefully not too usefull) on causes a crash (think I heard something like this about a hantek function gen or something simillar), fine, I just won't do it. Most of the time it's a problem only in cases you are not aware of it and don't take it into account.
Ofcourse that's just my take on it as an EE student, pretty sure professional engineers have different opinion on the matter and that's why they use agilent and tektronix products.
I totally understand tautech's mindset and point of view, but atleast for me if I had to choose between the current rigol scope (DS1054Z) as it is or one that has gone through intense QC and found and fixed most of the bugs but because of that increased the price by say 200 EUR, I would chose the former option without much thought.
It's a great scope for the beginners and they can usually live with the mall details and faults. The more advanced users that are also more picky can just look for higher class equipment.
I'm all for increased software quality as long as it doesn't result in a substantial increase in price, otherwise there is no point of the whole hobby segment and people may as well get the non-china branded equipment.

[rolycat]

Fact is that development and manufacturing costs have come down on things like oscilloscopes so everyone wants one but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes. On the whole you get about what you pay for.

Very true, but some don't understand that compromises in design like a 1 Gsa/s ADC shared by 4 channels will result in substandard performance.

Substandard compared with what? A 1 Gsa/s ADC is the standard and four channels is twice the standard at this price point and some way above it. Building any piece of test gear involves compromises, and knowing the limitations of your equipment is essential at any level.

[tautech]

Fact is that development and manufacturing costs have come down on things like oscilloscopes so everyone wants one but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes. On the whole you get about what you pay for.

Very true, but some don't understand that compromises in design like a 1 Gsa/s ADC shared by 4 channels will result in substandard performance.

Substandard compared with what? A 1 Gsa/s ADC is the standard and four channels is twice the standard at this price point and some way above it. Building any piece of test gear involves compromises, and knowing the limitations of your equipment is essential at any level.

In the Siglent range for example ONLY the budget/entry level models have less tha 1 Gsa/a ADC's.
As Simon says  you get what you pay for

[DanielS]

but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes.

Bugs can occur in all R&D regardless of how much money you spend on it and I would expect Rigol to reuse a fair amount of C/VHDL/Verilog between their product lines' FPGAs and SoCs since most features are fundamentally the same regardless of the GUI and PCB layout.

[aargee]

So, hypothetically - say Rigol can fix the problem with the DZ1054Z by re flashing the firmware but after which you will lose the ability to hack the firmware.

Would you trade off the hackability for a jitter/trigger fix?

All the whinging aside, I think I'd be reasonably happy with my Rigol in its current state.

[ataradov]

So, hypothetically - say Rigol can fix the problem with the DZ1054Z by re flashing the firmware but after which you will lose the ability to hack the firmware

If they wanted to make it unhackable, they would have done so already. I'm pretty sure they make it hackable on purpose.

[marmad]

So your tolerance to bugs is price related?

Well, yes - for good or bad, that is how most humans think. Tolerance for bugs, manufacturing and feature defects, bad industrial and UI design - those are all things we tend to link to the sticker price.

Looks like one releases "supposedly" completed gear on the market hopeing that many won't or can't recognise its shortcomings....seems like the modern marketing way. 

This is certainly true in virtually every market - from cell phones to furniture.

Siglent's SDS2000 series was ALWAYS identified as "a work in progress"....it still is.

  You must be kidding! Is the SDS2000 identified as "a work in progress" in all of the ads listing it for sale in analog or digital media? Even if this was true (which it demonstrably isn't), is that how manufacturers should get around the problem of releasing products too soon (or with possible bugs)? By slapping on a sticker that says, "Work in Progress"?

But it suffers NO jitter at any timebase, any delay settings, and whether DC or AC .

It suffers a litany of other bugs which are well-documented. It's a matter of subjective opinion as to whether one thinks those bugs are more serious than AC-trigger jitter / offset, etc.

Siglent have always been proactive and transparent to improve their products and their regular EEVblog participation is proof of this.

Sorry, this does not prove transparency - it just proves the desire to appear transparent (although, granted, it's better than Rigol). In fact, I had questions about possible limitations in terms of the intensity-grading of the SDS2000 a LONG time ago here on the forum - which were never confirmed/addressed by Siglent or any of you Siglent dealers. Once I had my hands on an SDS2000, I confirmed it in a matter of minutes. Now it's known as "a feature in progress".