new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[gslick]

I bought the soft case for it, RTB-Z3, just from the part number listings without being able to find a photo anywhere.  Just did some more Googling and finally found a picture:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm

Looks a little more "floppy" than the Rigol case for my 2000 series.  Velco closure too instead of snaps of some kind.  Should do the job though for normal amounts of transport.

The beginning of this video starts with the RTB2004 being removed from the soft case. Just a quick shot, not a real good look at it.



In the US $90 for the RTB-Z1 plastic front cover plus another $210 for the RTB-Z3 soft carrying bag seems a bit expensive compared to $150 for the Keysight N6457A Soft Carrying Case and Front Panel Cover for the InfiniiVision 2000 / 3000 X-Series, or $115 for the Keysight N2738A Soft Carrying Case for the InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series.

[Neganur]

Just buy a cheaparse camcorder bag from ebay, e.g. eBay auction: #301939847237

[JonM]

E75 seems a lot for a plastic cover - pretty sure Keysight include a hard front cover - My 3000 came with one - not sure if the 2000 does.

The Keysight front covers are optional. The cover for my 3024T cost US$46.04 (with small discount). I had one on my Agilent scope and strongly recommend getting one to protect the screen and knobs. Sometimes I even put it on when the scope is sitting on my desk.

Recently there was a smashed screen Keysight scope on eBay (for parts) and my first thought was that they should have bought the cover, my second thought was if it had option licenses that I could move to my scope...
 

[Neganur]

Legit licenses are connected to the scope's model and serial number, there is no way to legally transfer them.

[irakandjii]

I too was fortunate.  I acquired a RTB2004 from Testforce (Canada) and was delighted with the experience.  Expected delivery 6 weeks. 

My view on the marketing strategy, and my buying decision.

This special offering approximately 70% off the retail price was designed to incent early adoption of the RTB2004 by folks like us.  Retail prices are determined by market forces.  I confirmed this is in an informal manner by searching for "Equivalent" scopes by the other Tier 1 suppliers.  The "fully loaded" retail price ~$6500 (US) of these scopes is consistent for this capability & feature set.  Companies may differ in the feature mix and there are some trade-offs within each brand but generally they are comparable.

All new scopes need marketing support upon market entry.  Keysight choose to have a "scope month" and give away scopes and generate buzz that way.  R&S sold ~200 scopes with a discount of ~70% to create their buzz. 

Based on the marketing information, online manuals, datasheet and interaction with a company rep here on the forum.  I believe this scope meets my most demanding needs.  It just makes sense to acquire if the price is right for me. 

I look at it this way.  I bought a $2080 (us) lottery ticket, with a 100% chance to win a desirable prize worth $6500 (retail).  In the short run, the prize has an expected future value of more than I paid ($2080+ all other costs (tax, shipping, sales expense), classic zero downside decision.

As a pure business decision, it is a no brainer.  Take the deal!    Even more so if you have little negotiating power with the vendors.  For me, the retail price is a rigid wall that does not move (much) unless the manufacturer offers an incentive.  I know that corporate and institutional buyers simply use "list price" as a starting point and perhaps enjoy the dialogue with their dedicated sales rep on the golf course, alas I miss those days.

In terms of Tier 2 Suppliers they typically are 20%-30% cheaper as an offset for lower levels of offered support; documentation, access to engineering support, training materials, etc.  Even though you get the capability & feature set from tier 2, you are much more on your own.  In some regions this can be offset by a dedicated and ethical distributor, this was not my experience.  Having personally suffered a few times with well meaning yet unsupported technical staff, I am done buying from tier 2. 

PS 
As for the notion that this introduction price sets a new "retail price" going forward.  It does not, just look to the European pricing.
or do we believe Keysight must continue giving away scopes at the rate of 5 per day indefinitely?

[mtdoc]

As for the notion that this introduction price sets a new "retail price" going forward.  It does not...

I don't know. It may be their intent to go back to the original MSRP but I'm not sure that will hold for long.  They have set an expected price for this scope now and rational or not, price sensitive consumers are not going to be willing to now spend 3x as much for the same scope anytime soon. At least those in the "prosumer"/hobbiest/professional home use category who are aware of this scopes introduction and this introductory price.   It may be a nice scope but from what I've read so far I see no reason to believe the full featured version will be able to out-compete  other $5-6K scopes.

I believe there's a concept in economics that says once a lower price is established - it's difficult to significantly raise prices again.  Sure, they will be able to sell scopes at the original MSRP - but how many?  How much market penetration will they see? Especially with other scope makers ramping up their offerings.

This is kind of the opposite of UPOD (under promise, over deliver). There's gonna be a lot of people out there very unenthusiastic about paying 3x more for this scope with those included features or buying a bare bones scope for the same price as what a full featured one was temporarily available for.

We'll have to see how this plays out. I think it might be a year or two before we know the answer as to what price the market will bear for this scope.

[Neganur]

Well, it was the same with Keysight when the 2k and 3k X-series launched. There were promotions that came and went. Free fgen, free DMM, then 30% off, then free MSO option etc. There will always be a time when a promotion ends and you just missed the train.

I don't think you have much leverage trying to bully your way to a lower price after the promotion ends ("but you had it 30% cheaper last month...!"), just wait for the next promotional sale. The R&S one is ofc different due to the limited number style sales vs. Keysight's limited time offers but also R&S have those promotions fairly often.

[agdr]

The beginning of this video starts with the RTB2004 being removed from the soft case. Just a quick shot, not a real good look at it.

Interesting!  I completely missed that.  The one and only time I tried viewing that video I was using the cell phone.  The cell's video playback was working so badly it started a ways into the video, then I just gave up after a few minutes.  Never did circle back on a PC.  So sure enough, velcro.  Given I choice I would prefer snaps, like the Rigol bag has, but it will do.  The Rigol bag is great!  It is one thing Rigol got right.  Kind of a stiff molded material on the outside with softer insides.  Provides some pretty good "bumping" protection.  This R&S bag probably won't.

Yeah there must be about $20 USD of materials in that R&S bag, tops. But hey the stitched R&S name has to be worth at least $100, right? 

[NA5WH]

I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube.

I guess like many other voices, I do not think its much a gamble.

I currently don't have a scope, its been awhile since I've had one (various reasons) and I was in the market already for a new scope. Ideally I budgeted $1500. When I saw Mike make mention of it on twitter, and then looked into it, I found that for just a little bit more than my ideal budget I could get, in my estimation, about twice as much as my budget allowed and basically a "retail" of nearly 4 times my budget (granted I think some retail prices are a bit in crazy land, and we all know that more various sales will occur, and prices will come down at some point... market is the market). It has far more display real estate than many of the scopes I've looked at. But yes, virtually sight unseen. Now if this had been a Rigol or equivalent, I don't think I'd squeeze the trigger (not that I probably wont buy some Rigol stuff down the line). But I was already familiar with a few of R&S's other products, and their level of service.   And considering I still can cancel, and I probably can sell it for at least what I paid if I really don't like it, if not more... its hard to see the downside.

Does it have flaws?  Yeah. Lack of 50-ohm (especially with such sensitivity) seems weird to me. As does detent on fine adjusts. I'm sure there will be other things, but even the scopes I looked at, there are features I want that I can't get, so its all trade offs.

Only thing that bothers me is the release. It seems obvious that R&S had some sort of issue close to release. They didn't get scopes in the hands of a few reviewers on-time, and it seems that they didn't have any production units actually ready to go (i've still seen/heard no actual production scopes in anyone's hands... btw Mike, is yours beta firmware too like the many other screen shots I've seen?), even though their marketing materials said they did.  I do understand, though, they "had" to get to market this month, because of all the other competition.  And as much as I "want it right now", if they did find an issue that they can fix and make it better before its in my hands, awesome (as long as we're not talking months from now). 

[maginnovision]

As for the notion that this introduction price sets a new "retail price" going forward.  It does not...

I don't know. It may be their intent to go back to the original MSRP but I'm not sure that will hold for long.  They have set an expected price for this scope now and rational or not, price sensitive consumers are not going to be willing to now spend 3x as much for the same scope anytime soon. At least those in the "prosumer"/hobbiest/professional home use category who are aware of this scopes introduction and this introductory price.   It may be a nice scope but from what I've read so far I see no reason to believe the full featured version will be able to out-compete  other $5-6K scopes.

I believe there's a concept in economics that says once a lower price is established - it's difficult to significantly raise prices again.  Sure, they will be able to sell scopes at the original MSRP - but how many?  How much market penetration will they see? Especially with other scope makers ramping up their offerings.

This is kind of the opposite of UPOD (under promise, over deliver). There's gonna be a lot of people out there very unenthusiastic about paying 3x more for this scope with those included features or buying a bare bones scope for the same price as what a full featured one was temporarily available for.

We'll have to see how this plays out. I think it might be a year or two before we know the answer as to what price the market will bear for this scope.

I'm pretty sure it's as competitive as any R&S scope is now on price so it seems far fetched to think it would drastically change because of a limited launch promotion. It's also important to remember how much it has on top of alot of other comparable scopes. People keep comparing to keysight 3000x scopes but that's not what they're targeting, which is 2000 series scopes. Unless you think everybody is going to adjust their pricing because of another manufacturers 200 unit promotion, I don't see the reason for the baseless speculation that they'll never be able to sell them now.

[mtdoc]

Unless you think everybody is going to adjust their pricing because of another manufacturers 200 unit promotion, I don't see the reason for the baseless speculation that they'll never be able to sell them now.

I never said that "they'll never be able to sell them now".  Of course they'll sell some - as I said - the question is how many and at what price?

I certainly don't expect they will change their MSRP to the promotional price or that other scope makers will drop equivalent scope's MSRP to that price.

What I do think will likely happen is that if they want to elevate their market position with this scope, they'll likely need to either drastically cut the price of the basic upgrade options or regularly offer promotions which get a lot closer the level of this original promotion.

Really - as others pointed out early in this thread - before the promotion was anounced -charging $540 for basic serial triggering and decoding  in this class of scope is just not gonna fly if they want to be a market leader.  And $1860 extra to get to 300 MHz? 

I just think that kind of pricing that was perhaps previously working for Keysight, etc will not still be working in 1-2 years.  Admittedly this is all speculation - but I feel like we're seeing a turning point in the low -mid level ($1k-4K) scope market and this is just the beginning. Their promotional pricing was a preview of what's coming.

[snoopy]

Does anyone know if you can use this scope with a USB mouse ? Might save the screen from getting grubby and I am much more productive with a mouse than a touch screen.

cheers

[gslick]

Does anyone know if you can use this scope with a USB mouse ? Might save the screen from getting grubby and I am much more productive with a mouse than a touch screen.

Around a minute into this video he plugs in a USB mouse and uses it to drag the waveform around on the screen.

[bitwelder]

Regarding the glossy touchscreen, I guess it should be possible to add one of those 'protective screen' for tablets, that have matte finish and leave less fingerprint traces.

[coppice]

Regarding the glossy touchscreen, I guess it should be possible to add one of those 'protective screen' for tablets, that have matte finish and leave less fingerprint traces.

Considering how roughly handled most lab equipment can be, the impact protective qualities of a glass screen protector might be very useful. 

[coppice]

Does anyone know who makes the BNC connectors in these R&S scope? Surface mount connectors, accessible to the user, are usually a mechanical disaster, but this slotting arrangement looks like it might actually be robust.

[piranha32]

Does anyone know who makes the BNC connectors in these R&S scope? Surface mount connectors, accessible to the user, are usually a mechanical disaster, but this slotting arrangement looks like it might actually be robust.

Not exactly like those in the scope, but also very robust, if not better (hold the board on both sides): http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/amphenol-rf-division/034-5013/ARF2104-ND/3995564

[mikeselectricstuff]

Only thing that bothers me is the release. It seems obvious that R&S had some sort of issue close to release. They didn't get scopes in the hands of a few reviewers on-time, and it seems that they didn't have any production units actually ready to go (i've still seen/heard no actual production scopes in anyone's hands... btw Mike, is yours beta firmware too like the many other screen shots I've seen?), even though their marketing materials said they did.  I do understand, though, they "had" to get to market this month, because of all the other competition.  And as much as I "want it right now", if they did find an issue that they can fix and make it better before its in my hands, awesome (as long as we're not talking months from now).

Reading between the lines of my communications with them, there was at least a significant logistics screwup in terms of where the first units went, and that units went to dealers before reviewers, though these may have just been demo units rather than for sale.  It may also be that units were diverted to potential big customers.

The unit I have looks in every respect like a full production unit. I have found a few minor bugs in the firmware but nothing that's a problem or would be difficult fixes.

I think we will see promotions on options, as everyone else is doing it. It may also be the case that dealers can throw in options to clinch a sale.
My R&S UK rep said they do promotions every 6 months.

[trevwhite]

Seems Farnell UK are now offering a "deal". They offered me the promo bundle for £3175+VAT. Not quite the same bargain the US got. I wont be buying it.

[mrpackethead]

In deed. in these days of the global market.. the old techniques just dont' cut it any longer. I'm NOT goign to pay a 50% premium just becuase i am in New Zealand. End of story.

And if you set the price with a promostion you better be ready to sell it again at that price, cause you've just set the expectation. and you know whwat.. I have plenty of choices now of what i'll buy..  theres plenty of good scopes that will do the job for me.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Seems Farnell UK are now offering a "deal". They offered me the promo bundle for £3175+VAT. Not quite the same bargain the US got. I wont be buying it.

Friend of mine just received the same offer. Nowhere near the US deal, but as the latter appears to have finished, still not a bad deal.
I'm told they have about 12 units available.

[irakandjii]

Hi Mike  Thank you for all the work you are doing with the RTB2004, for me it is revealing and seems for the most part to support the marketing claims of R&S.

Have you looked at the triggers yet?  There was some debate on the forum regarding this capability and in particular the runt trigger.  In the data sheet it states that we can search for a runt but no mention of triggering on one. 

Just curious, it would be disappointing if there is no runt trigger.

[Asymmetric13]

You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?

If you can live with 200MHz there is an alternative for the same price and available worldwide. Some pros and cons ofcourse but all in all pretty much in the same ballpark.

Are you referring to the GW Instek MSO 2204 EA ?

I think it would be (very?) interesting to conduct a comparison between the two models - clearly there are headline differences (300MHz / 200 MHz, 10" Screen / 8" Screen, 10 Bit ADC / 8 Bit ADC) beyond those items if the specifications and performance are considerably closer (equivalent?), the remaining variable is price and the "standard" cost for the GW Instek ("fully loaded specification and options") is equivalent to the "promotional" (and now sold out) pricing for this R&S ("fully loaded specification and options").

My assumption is that most of the interest generated here was not due to the device being a new model from R&S, but rather being a great specification (without hacking) for the price. This is the rationale for why I think such a comparison may be of interest - particularly to all those who are not able to consider the full purchase price of the (non-discounted) R&S.

I wonder how we might go about getting GW Instek to provide a review scope to Dave, Mike and any others in a position to conduct the necessary blow-by-blow to answer the above comparison queries.

@nctnico - has your communication with GW Instek regarding firmware updates in the past left you with a contact path that may be able to facilitate this?

EEV Forum Thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-announces-new-mso-2000/

T Equipment Product Page:

http://www.tequipment.net/Instek/MSO-2202EA/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=true

Details of (additional - i.e. not required to be price equivalent as described above) Educational Discount:

http://www.gwinstek.com/en-US/Page/ECEDHA_Education_Promotion

__________

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with any manufacturer, just eager in understanding the landscape.

[krzychb]

Seems Farnell UK are now offering a "deal". They offered me the promo bundle for £3175+VAT. Not quite the same bargain the US got. I wont be buying it.

Friend of mine just received the same offer. Nowhere near the US deal, but as the latter appears to have finished, still not a bad deal.
I'm told they have about 12 units available.

I got similar offer from another vendor for 3,595 Euro + VAT. But the lead time was 3 - 8 weeks.

[lukier]

In deed. in these days of the global market.. the old techniques just dont' cut it any longer. I'm NOT goign to pay a 50% premium just becuase i am in New Zealand. End of story.

And if you set the price with a promostion you better be ready to sell it again at that price, cause you've just set the expectation. and you know whwat.. I have plenty of choices now of what i'll buy..  theres plenty of good scopes that will do the job for me.

Yeah, I don't get why everyone here is so excited about the $2k deal. It is a publicity stunt, 200 units, only through one US distributor (big middle finger to R&S domestic = EU market and other countries). And no way to plan and make purchasing decisions.

But to be fair even the MSRP price (e.g. Farnell UK for RTB2004/RTB-B243/RTB-B1 = 3785 GBP + VAT) is still pretty good compared to the prices of comparable scopes in the same store (e.g. Keysight MSOX3034T 350 MHz  4+16 = 7295 GBP + VAT), and I guess both manufacturers will do promos on option bundles.