Author Topic: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair  (Read 203599 times)

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Offline Mickle T.

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #275 on: March 25, 2018, 08:20:36 pm »
The one point I find a little odd with the amplifier is the way the guard driver for the JFET input switches is handled. It can take quite some time for U107 to settle ( the OP07 has a rather limited slew rate) and this could cause quite some leakage current through the JFETs, when switching from a positive voltage down.
The amplifier's precision channel have the same OP07D (U104) in the signal path. There are another odd thing with JFET switches: R083 C026 series circuit.

szszjdb, can you makes some measurements, please. I found a huge Ohms transfer error from 1 MOhm to 10 MOhm ranges. With 1 MOhm resistor I get a 180-200 ppm difference (temperature independant) :bullshit:

Some small improvements:
1) R234 copper mod. VDC 10V tempco decreased about 5 times.



2) U504 OP07D v-ground op amp was changed to the lower noise AD8675. It makes sense only in low voltages non-AZ modes.



3) Input amplifier's dual FETs is rather sensitive to convective air flows.



P.S. STL and STEP 2.14 models attached.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 12:32:41 pm by Mickle T. »
 
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Offline TiN

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #276 on: March 26, 2018, 12:05:41 pm »
Mickle.T.

Quote
szszjdb, can you makes some measurements, please. I found a huge Ohms transfer error from 1 MOhm to 10 MOhm ranges. With 1 MOhm resistor I get a 180-200 ppm difference (temperature independant)
All ranges 100K and higher have big errors on mine too, so I can do measurements, just tell me what to do :). I have meter moved to workbench again, so I'll play with it soon again.

Can you also share CAD for cover for us, I'd like to get some printed too  :).
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Offline szszjdb

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #277 on: March 26, 2018, 03:09:01 pm »
Hi,  Mr.Kleinstein and  Mr. Mickle.T ,

Thanks a lot!

I had checked the Q106-Q116 around the DC amp and found no obvious issue there. The dual FET work fine with the 0.5ma current. I am testing with 0v input and using the handheld meter. Attached FYI.
I will conduct the bias checking soon later.

I also check the transfer error for 1M ohm input in 2 wire method and it was at least 200ppm error  from 1M to 10M range transfer. Testing is in 2 method , the NORMAL and the OHM-COMP. The later has the worse performance than the former.    I also re-calibrated the meter for further check and found some improvement.

Best Regards,
szszjdb
 
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Offline Mickle T.

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #278 on: March 26, 2018, 03:40:51 pm »
So, my resume is here: Advantest R6581 - is a fake 8.5-digits multimeter:  :--
1) "fake" >100 GOhm input impedance (although a user manual says about only >10 GOhm). Huge input current spikes in AZ mode are ruines these GOhms at all.
2) "fake" 1.1 kV VDC rating.
3) "fake" VDC ranges temperature coefficients (most users are complain about it).
4) "fake" ADC INL.
5) "fake" Ohms artifact calibration tolerances.
Did I miss something?
 
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Offline TiN

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #279 on: March 26, 2018, 04:54:26 pm »
Well, it's still okayish if priced in 6.5d meter range.
Yea, dreaded banana jacks instead of proper binding posts.
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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #280 on: March 26, 2018, 05:28:13 pm »
For the Ohms problem, it might make a difference of the "protect" capacitor at the input is connected. If this really is an MKT type cap, its DA might cause problems too with very high resistors.  Just in case one could  change it from MKT to MKP or NP0.

For the very high ohms ranges and thus very small test currents, the current source uses quite small voltages and might still have quite some meter internal leakage. So I won't expect really good accuracy above 1 M anyway. So those extra ranges for very hight resistance are not expected to be very accurate.

The INL data for the positive sign from szszjdb look so bad, that there still might be a well hidden defect. TiNs and Mickle's meters seems to be considerably better, though not really what one expects from a 8 digit meter.  From looking at the schematics, I would be kind of afraid of INL do the self heating of R200 (input of the ADC), causing a U³ component. At least so far the data shown look good at least - likely really good quality R200, or maybe a hidden numerical correction.

It would be interesting to see how large the AZ mode current spike is. I thought a little about the switching sequence and from this the critical part could be with large negative voltage, especially the small range below -10 V.  The step from switching between a negative voltage to a positive voltage should not be so bad: the guard from OP U107 should start low and may cause a slightly delayed turn on, but nothing bad would happen. However the other direction might be tricky. the guard level can be relatively positive and it takes the OP07 quite some time to come down. If this is slower than the LM399 and the 100 K resistors allow the gate voltage to rise, this could result in a gate voltage that gets too positive and cause gate current to flow. R83, C26 might be for this purpose, to slow down the switching. So they make some sense.
With a positive input the problematic input step would effect the GND reference in AZ mode, with a negative one it would be the input. There would be definitively a asymmetry between positive and negative voltages and thus possible contributions to input resistance, that might be nonlinear. I would definitely expect the input current to be voltage dependent.

The reported VDC drift problems might be due to the bug causing the input relay to get rather hot. So chances are it gets better when fixed.

The DCV transfer between ranges (e.g. 10 V to 1 V)  is also a bit disappointing for a 8 digit meter. However if known the error might be corrected manually.

Another possible problem could be due to DA from the integration capacitor. This might cause some settling problems. So it might be worth doing a test like switching from a relatively high voltage (e.g. 10 V for maybe 1 minute)  to 0 and record the data for the first maybe 1 minute at 10 PLC. One might be able to do this with changing from front to back. Without AZ there will likely be quite some effect, but who really cares about this.  Depending on how AZ is done there might be some effect with AZ active too - and this could be a problem, especially if not known.

On trying to improve a little, it might be worth adding some caps in the feedback to U209 / U211 to produce the 17/-19 V references. This would add some filtering to the reference and thus reduce the noise of the ADC a little. Due to the modulation the ADC is sensitive to noise reference noise at around the modulation frequency (around 5 kHz). It is not very much, but avoidable.

The meter is still better than many 6 digit meters.
 
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Offline szszjdb

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #281 on: March 26, 2018, 05:37:49 pm »
Hi,   Mr. Mickle.T ,

I still can not believe that the data in the spec is just a story. How a big company trick so many  professional user in such long time? I take that there have some more sensitive design to the parts aging or falure. Yet it is difficult to find out.

The weakness might fixed by some degree in the following model 7480/7470. My friend have got one 7480 and I will have chance to check it later.

Best Regards,
szszjdb

 

Offline eurofox

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #282 on: March 26, 2018, 06:29:51 pm »
I will get mine in the next coming days, the only thing I know is that the display is bright and that the battery need to be changed, i already got one ready.

The best other meter I have to compare is a Keithley 2001 in good condition but need to be calibrated, I will keep your guys posted!

PS: Advantest is a company with good reputation and don't think that they have put on the market something bad, maybe not so good than 3458A but correct.

The bad part from this instrument is that there is no documentation nor a decent English manual.

eurofox
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 06:08:49 am by eurofox »
eurofox
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #283 on: March 26, 2018, 06:44:13 pm »
Perhaps Advantest's marketing team gold picked very good 6581 for above mentioned JJA linearity test. We will not know the true story.
Also Keithley 2001 also definitely worse for linearity, noise and stability than working 6581.
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Offline eurofox

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #284 on: March 27, 2018, 02:34:49 pm »
I got my Advantest R6581 today  :-+

Confirmation the battery is dead and since I got the same as the original I did a quick replace  |O not so quick since one leg broke on the surface of the PCB next to an electrolytic capacitor, finally I removed the capacitor to be able to remove the broken wire and at the same time check the capacitor.

Instrument is in mint condition  8)

Next an internal calibration ...... :phew:

After a while calibration was done, no errors  :-DMM

Finally use different voltages, current, resistor decade and everything seems to be ok.

Next will need a full calibration with external references but at first glance seems to be a winner  :-DD

eurofox
eurofox
 
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Offline Mickle T.

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #285 on: March 27, 2018, 02:45:51 pm »
I got my Advantest R6581 today  :-+
How about some experiments  >:D
1) Internal Cal ALL. Set 10 VDC range, AZERO ON, input short, Null. Connect external 10 V source, then measure a voltage difference between +10 V and -10 V readings.
2) Connect external 1 MOhm resistor and measure its value on the 1 MOhm and 10 MOhm ranges (OCOMP OFF, AZERO ON).
 
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Offline eurofox

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #286 on: March 27, 2018, 03:19:53 pm »
I got my Advantest R6581 today  :-+
How about some experiments  >:D
1) Internal Cal ALL. Set 10 VDC range, AZERO ON, input short, Null. Connect external 10 V source, then measure a voltage difference between +10 V and -10 V readings.
2) Connect external 1 MOhm resistor and measure its value on the 1 MOhm and 10 MOhm ranges (OCOMP OFF, AZERO ON).

Voltage is exactly the same in + or - !

Resistor is correct !

Based on the brightness of the display and cosmetic condition I think that this instrument spend most on his life on a shelf not used until the battery died ....

« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 03:27:19 pm by eurofox »
eurofox
 
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Offline Mickle T.

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #287 on: March 27, 2018, 03:39:00 pm »
Internals photo, ple-e-e-a-s-e  :-+
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #288 on: March 27, 2018, 04:49:04 pm »
I got my 6581T in test now.

.
.

Results:
* Autozero does not show any more noise with my 10V source setup (xDevs FX LTZ ref with ADA4522-2 chopper drive output and battery powered).
* +10V to -10V difference is 0.49ppm (3458A-2: 0.16ppm, 3458A-3: 0.27ppm, K2002's about 0.9ppm might be TC issue, both 2002 are too hot).
1 Megaohm resistor test results:
HP3458A
1.0000012 - 1 Meg
01.000037 - 10 Meg
001.00004 - 100 Meg
0001.00000 - 1G range
R6581T
999.80555 - 1 Meg    : deviation = -195 ppm
00.999785 - 10 Meg   : deviation = -251 ppm
000.99900 - 100 Meg  : deviation = -1040 ppm
0001.0003 - 1G range : deviation = +300 ppm

Also can anyone confirm that VFD high-voltage is indeed AC voltage? VFD brightness is really dim, and it's unusual to me that VFD has AC drive for both segments and filaments. I've attached fuse F1 and F2 (near front panel FPC connectors) oscilloscope waveforms measured voltage vs GND.

P.S. Meter does not have relay drive fix yet.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 06:17:18 pm by TiN »
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Offline Mickle T.

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #289 on: March 27, 2018, 05:15:03 pm »
This video is unavailable  :(
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #290 on: March 27, 2018, 05:54:46 pm »
There should be a difference in the noise between AZ and non AZ mode. In some cases it might have a similar RMS value, but there should be extra 1/f type noise in the case without AZ and the extra zero measurement would contribute a little more broad-band noise. As far as I have understood it current measurement and likely 4 wire ohms are always AZ. This might also apply to something like 100 PLC mode.

The meter from Eurofox working so well suggests that there is some kind of common wide spread type of error / defect that might influence quite a few meters.  Just in case it might help to know the software version of the well working unit.


Edit - after seeing TiN's video:
The noise on the meter changes significant (higher noise without AZ) as expected. What did not change was the noise observed directly at the input, recorded with a sensitive amplifier to the scope. This is not a real surprise, as the first part at the input is a 8.8 K resistance that isolates the input from the ADC. So if at all one would see extra noise only with a higher impedance source, but not with a low impedance buffered source.

The kickback to the input can be different for the negative and positive sign - at least the switching of the JFET might behave different.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 06:31:09 pm by Kleinstein »
 
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Offline TiN

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #291 on: March 27, 2018, 06:04:08 pm »
Yea, sorry, I updated post above with both video parts and results.
Perhaps I did not see any noise difference because my 10V reference can do rather high power output drive (+/- 40mA with <1ppm load error).
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Offline Mickle T.

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #292 on: March 27, 2018, 07:26:32 pm »
...
1 Megaohm resistor test results:
R6581T
999.80555 - 1 Meg    : deviation = -195 ppm
00.999785 - 10 Meg   : deviation = -251 ppm
...
Also can anyone confirm that VFD high-voltage is indeed AC voltage? VFD brightness is really dim, and it's unusual to me that VFD has AC drive for both segments and filaments. I've attached fuse F1 and F2 (near front panel FPC connectors) oscilloscope waveforms measured voltage vs GND.
1 and 10 Meg transfer in your DMM is almost perfect. I can't understand why all of these 6581x are so differents  |O

VFD in my DMM almost unreadable. Waveforms and amplitudes on the F1 and F2 is the same as yours, but have a DC offset.
 
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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #293 on: March 27, 2018, 08:21:48 pm »
The higher Ohms values could suffer from too fast switching on the Ohms Hi sense input.  Different from the DCV input there seems to be no RC to slow down the switching.  It might be worth looking with the scope at the sense_Hi input when measuring a 1 M resistor (OCOMP Off).
The 3458 uses quite some extra effort to control the JFET switching: e.g. using a current sink and cap instead of just a simple RC in the 6581. So it is not only having no pre-charge , but also a much simpler timing.

Another point could be to just look at the input current with the capacitor method at 1 PLC with AZ and without.

It is hard to tell why different meter behave so different. It might indicate defects / aging to a different degree. One example could also be timings that get critical more or less. One likely important source for INL should be self heating of the input resistor in R200 - so things can change depending on the individual TC.
 
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Offline szszjdb

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #294 on: March 28, 2018, 05:51:53 am »
Hi,  Mr.Kleinstein and  Mr. Mickle.T ,

Thanks a lot!
Yes most of the used 6581 have more or less issues with them and mine is the worst case I ever heard.
Here updataed the bias test by cap method. One is for the zero start point in AZON and the other are for 1-10v start point in AZOFF.All in 10plc. It seems ok by now?
I got a 3458 and could check the AD with it at the ADIN point. I am still wondering who is the bad gay, AD or the DC AMP.

Any further advice, please!

EDIT: Add the test report of 0V input by 1nf on AZOFF and AZON mode .

Best Regards,
szszjdb
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 03:11:10 pm by szszjdb »
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #295 on: March 28, 2018, 02:57:28 pm »
The input bias tests look very odd, especially the case with AZ off.  Why is the voltage going down to zero so fast. The interesting part wound be starting at 2, 3 , 4 .. V and than watching the drift from there, not the recovery after a  0 - 5 V - 0 V or similar pattern. That would be looking for something like DA in the capacitor and maybe internal caps at the input. If the fast drop back to zero and than back to around 0.7 V is just due to the DMM this would be really odd and would indicate a problem.

The test from 0 shows initially some current (still looks like < 100 pA and thus acceptable), but hard to judge from the scale how much exactly.
The current seems to vanish around 300 mV / 700 mV, so the extra AZ switching seems to have some effect, but not very much. The slow drift in the later part may be just slow drift of the current and thus moving the point of zero current around.
 
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Offline eurofox

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #296 on: March 28, 2018, 02:58:31 pm »
Hi guy's!

Yesterday I did a calibration just after changing the battery to check that is was ok and of course the instrument was cold  :palm:

Today after 1 hour warm up calibration and did the test again, I don't have a very stable 10VDC ref, the 2 last digits from my ref are "jumping" with 100 averages.

Sorry guy's but get the same results with inverting the polarity, if your meter does not do that you should look to fix it!

Now the resistors, I have only 1M ohm and 10M ohm with 5 % tolerance measured with 50 averages.

1M ohm

1000K ohm range : 1036.8568
10M ohm range : 1.0369998
100M ohm range : 1.03731

10M ohm

10M ohm range : 10.160642
100M ohm range : 10.16695

I need to calibrate it with external references to get better results but I'm happy with the instrument  :-DD

eurofox
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 03:03:45 pm by eurofox »
eurofox
 
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Offline szszjdb

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #297 on: March 28, 2018, 03:28:46 pm »
Hi,  Mr.Kleinstein,

Sorry, I need to re-do the step test ,as I use the NO-LOAD function of my 6144 and found diffirent performance from just plug out the line.

EDIT: Here comes the step test again with just plug out the feed line. The interal of each voltage step is about 90s.  The spike on 4/5v is just the moment when plugging out.  Also attached  the excel file, FYI.
All are with AZON.

Best Regards,
szszjdb
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 04:43:56 pm by szszjdb »
 

Offline Mickle T.

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #298 on: March 28, 2018, 03:38:49 pm »
Sorry guy's but get the same results with inverting the polarity, if your meter does not do that you should look to fix it!

You can help our community to repair DMMs even by making just one high-res photo of your PCB.
 
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Offline eurofox

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Re: Advantest R6581 8.5 digit DMM mini teardown/repair
« Reply #299 on: March 28, 2018, 03:43:35 pm »
Sorry guy's but get the same results with inverting the polarity, if your meter does not do that you should look to fix it!

You can help our community to repair DMMs even by making just one high-res photo of your PCB.

I can try to do that maybe next week because I have to open again the instrument but I don't no what you expect with a picture ... detect different components ?

I just start to warm up my LTZ1000 board and will check again the polarity since this one is more stable.
eurofox
 


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