EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[rollatorwieltje]

They came up with some proof, here:



a Garmin GPS runs 5 times longer with the aid of batteriser.

It looks convincing, but I just can't believe this is right. Garmin engineers know what they are doing, I'm pretty sure of that.

Didn't bother to watch the whole video, but look at that first battery graph. About 2 hours with at most 300mA current draw. Worst case that would mean that the battery pack only contains 600mAh. That's about the capacity of an ancient AAA NiCD cell. AA NiMH cells contain about 2000mAh. Not completely sure about alkaline, but that should be about the same or even more.

Edit:
Looking at this Energizer datasheet:
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E91.pdf
At half an amp the batteries should contain about 1200mA. Looking at the graph below that, for a 2 hour service life at 300mA the cutoff voltage is 1.2V, makes no sense for a device that runs on NiMH cells.

[LabSpokane]

And how much burden voltage does that data logger introduce into the test setup? Maybe Dave needs to comp them a microcurrent.

[firewalker]

Just a side note... Why they had to change batteries? Couldn't they use the batteriser to the depleted batteries? 

Alexander.

[rollatorwieltje]

And how much burden voltage does that data logger introduce into the test setup? Maybe Dave needs to comp them a microcurrent.

Looks like they used a Dataq DI-145 logger for voltage (where is the graph?) and a Hantek 365 for current. http://www.hantek.com/Product/HT365/HT365_Manual.PDF

That Hantek doesn't really look like a precision instrument, I doubt the burden voltage is better than an average multimeter. Explains why they didn't show the voltage graph, they are probably pissing away almost half a volt. Also explains why the life is so short in the non-batteriser test.

[EEVblog]

And how much burden voltage does that data logger introduce into the test setup? Maybe Dave needs to comp them a microcurrent.

Not to mention all the interconnection and contact resistance in those long leads.
Notice how they don't measure nor tell you what the cutout voltage of the GPS is.
No need for any of the testing gear, just a clock, that automated tapper, and a time lapse camera. Compare the two. More technical smoke and mirrors only invites more criticism.

[onlooker]

It looks convincing, but I just can't believe this is right. Garmin engineers know what they are doing, I'm pretty sure of that.

Maybe, someone has contact and can get Garmin engineers' attention. It is to their and their company's interest to tell their side of the the story. Garmin may have lawyers chasing after Batteriser soon.

[LabSpokane]

And how much burden voltage does that data logger introduce into the test setup? Maybe Dave needs to comp them a microcurrent.

Looks like they used a Dataq DI-145 logger for voltage (where is the graph?) and a Hantek 365 for current. http://www.hantek.com/Product/HT365/HT365_Manual.PDF

That Hantek doesn't really look like a precision instrument, I doubt the burden voltage is better than an average multimeter. Explains why they didn't show the voltage graph, they are probably pissing away almost half a volt. Also explains why the life is so short in the non-batteriser test.

I think you're likely close as far as the voltage drop.   If someone has one, it should take all of 10 minutes to find the burden voltage range between 100 and 300 mA. 

It's just so ridiculous that these guys run an ammeter in series during a power life test.  Do they *NOT* know that they're dissipating energy in the current shunt of the meter?!! 

================================================

Hey Bob, since you are still apparently reading these threads, here's some more free consulting engineering for you:

One must run *two* separate tests: one characterizing the current and a separate test measuring the battery voltage as a function of time.  You don't get to run both at once UNLESS you compensate for the voltage and power loss...

i.e., you pony up for a battery simulator:  http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2307914/battery-power-management-solutions?cc=US&lc=eng

http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1842303-pn-N6705B/dc-power-analyzer-modular-600-w-4-slots?nid=-35714.937221.00&cc=US&lc=eng

You'll need some power modules too:
http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-838452-pn-N6733B/dc-power-module-20v-25a-50w?nid=-35714.384326.00&cc=US&lc=eng

With the current $214k that you'll receive from Indiegogo, you should have PLENTY of money to buy the right equipment for the job.  Or you could hire an engineer with a mere bachelor's degree that actually knows what they're doing and run two separate tests. 

What you folks have done to try and "prove your point" is to introduce two *additional*, substantial errors, simultaneously.  Maybe you should just stop trying, because it's only getting worse for you. 

And, Bob, in the interest of getting you a piece of equipment that *might* get you close to making something resembling a factual claim, I will send you my Microcurrent for free on the condition that you use it to un-hose this marketing campaign and make factual claims.  Just PM me. 

[LabSpokane]

It looks convincing, but I just can't believe this is right. Garmin engineers know what they are doing, I'm pretty sure of that.

Maybe, someone has contact and can get Garmin engineers' attention. It is to their and their company's interest to tell their side of the the story. Garmin may have lawyers chasing after Batteriser soon.

Garmin tells users upfront that alkalines are not best-suited to their device.  In Batteriser's defense, that this *could* be a corner case where a boost converter makes alkalines more suitable for a high-drain device, but if they ran their test setup properly, the results would likely be far less dramatic. 

GPS is just a high-drain technology.  50-75mA draw just to run the receiver is pretty common.  So, virtually every manufacturer says not to use alkalines, but use NiMH or Lithium disposables - which have a fairly flat discharge curve as compared to an alkaline. 

This whole thing begs the question of "what is wrong with the truth?"  This clip on boost converter could be a nice solution for these corner cases, and I'd happily support it if the claims reflected reality: that this will only help a small minority of devices. But instead, they're still hyping 800%, and only slowly, begrudgingly admitting that no-one's keyboard batteries will last longer with their product. 

[EEVblog]

I think you're likely close as far as the voltage drop.   If someone has one, it should take all of 10 minutes to find the burden voltage range between 100 and 300 mA. 

According to the setup in video they are using the Amps jack, so burden will be much lower than the mA range, which likely wouldn't have been usable at all.

[EEVblog]

Garmin tells users upfront that alkalines are not best-suited to their device.  In Batteriser's defense, that this *could* be a corner case where a boost converter makes alkalines more suitable for a high-drain device

Oh course it is, that's why they chose it. I have no problem with that personally provided they are honest that this is an edge case.
Thankfully they have now admitted that the average modern products drops out at 1.1V at most. They had too of course, because their claims were borderline fraudulent. Now they can just happily get away with the usual "up to" marketing BS claim.

[LabSpokane]

I think you're likely close as far as the voltage drop.   If someone has one, it should take all of 10 minutes to find the burden voltage range between 100 and 300 mA. 

According to the setup in video they are using the Amps jack, so burden will be much lower than the mA range, which likely wouldn't have been usable at all.

Do you have one?  I couldn't see the labels on those jacks for the life of me...  Nor could I tell from any of Hantek's photos...   

[onlooker]

Garmin tells users upfront that alkalines are not best-suited to their device.  In Batteriser's defense, that this *could* be a corner case...

Well, the GPS  already had a boost converter. It does not make sense that chaining two boost converters should have a lot gain in utilizing energy in batteries of any type, if any. It should have practically none, unless Garmin's design is at fault.

[EEVblog]

Do you have one?  I couldn't see the labels on those jacks for the life of me...  Nor could I tell from any of Hantek's photos...   

You can see the jack used in the video, and a check of the manual front panel shows it's the Amps jack.

[LabSpokane]

Garmin tells users upfront that alkalines are not best-suited to their device.  In Batteriser's defense, that this *could* be a corner case...

Well, the GPS  already had a boost converter. It does not make sense that chaining two boost converters should have a lot gain in utilizing energy in batteries of any type, if any. It should have practically none, unless Garmin's design is at fault.

Duracell NiMH datasheet:  http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nh15-2300.pdf

Since these devices are high-drain devices by nature, Garmin likely designed around the characteristics of a NiMH cell, which I believe shouldn't be discharged below about 1.1V (someone please correct me here if my info is incorrect).  They might even stop at 1.15V just for safety, since over discharging those cells damages them .  So, of course the battery life for alkalines will be artificially reduced by this.  Like Dave pointed out, one needs to know the cutout threshold of the device. 

NiMH also have about 1/4 the internal resistance of an alkaline, which helps prop up the voltage during current draw spikes. 

So, in such an isolated instance, the Batteriser might actually "help," I just doubt the 5X claim.  I'd actually go through the effort and go by REI and see if they'd let me test a device, but I doubt it will matter.  Batteroo will just probe another helpless toy animal's nether-regions and make a new video.

[Howardlong]

I am not sure that the Garmin is a valid use case anyway. The backlit display is forced on permanently and the unit is inside, out of GPS reception, so it will be permanently searching.

Regarding the Apple wireless keyboard, I gave up using mine because it went flat so quickly, a matter of a few weeks. I am minded to take a look at what the draw is, I suspect that it maintains a semi permanent bluetooth connection when the Mac it's paired with is in standby so it can power it up from the keyboard. Irrespective, I did once take a look at the unloaded voltage on the supoosed depleted cells and it was still 1.3V, so there may be a design flaw.

[rollatorwieltje]

Not sure why they built that rig anyway, I'm pretty sure that GPS has an "always on" mode.



At 5:40 is a screenshot of the settings menu (in Dutch):

• Display timer always on
• Background color
• Screenshot on
• Battery saving off
• Press to start display calibration

At 3:58 is a screenshot of the battery selection. It even has a specific mode for alkaline.

[EEVblog]

At 3:58 is a screenshot of the battery selection. It even has a specific mode for alkaline.

Which would likely change the battery dropout voltage detection. Batteriser of course don't mention that.
And if the Alkaline setting does indeed have a lower low battery cutout voltage, then their testing is either embaressingly flawed, or deliberately deceptive.

[Galenbo]

I do not see a "batteriser" in the video.
It's a complete scam video.

[LabSpokane]

http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/Dakota_OM_EN.pdf#page8

  OK, so on page two of the manual, we find the battery type setting. 

[Fungus]

I do not see a "batteriser" in the video.
It's a complete scam video.

Try looking at 1:15...

[EEVblog]

OK, so on page two of the manual, we find the battery type setting.

To not mention that in the video is truly  worthy indeed.

[EEVblog]

Also, over 17,000 views in 2 days. My videos barely get that many and I've got over a quarter of a million subscribers. Who the hell is viewing this?
If I didn't know any better I'd say there is some bot racking views on their videos...

[Fungus]

Also, over 17,000 views in 2 days. My videos barely get that many and I've got over a quarter of a million subscribers. Who the hell is viewing this?

That's what that robot finger is for... 

[McBryce]

Also, over 17,000 views in 2 days. My videos barely get that many and I've got over a quarter of a million subscribers. Who the hell is viewing this?

17,000 of your 250,000 subscribers?

McBryce.

[Galenbo]

I do not see a "batteriser" in the video.
It's a complete scam video.

Try looking at 1:15...

At 1:20 I see some 3D printed cover above the batteries.
But it isn't a batteriser, because that product still doesn't exist.

They could have used a breadboard with the "batteriser" circuitry, to be miniaturised.
But they didn't.