Linux OS for a new user

[themadhippy]

The market has spoken

And that market is  the back handers and profits shared out amongst manufacturers  and retailers.Linux being free has no profit margin for the distributor so they gain nothing ,meanwhile windows cost  money ,might only be a few pounds to the computer manufacture,but they can add a bit on when the sell it,same for distributors and retailers ,their all getting a little bit of the pie so why promote something that wont get them a slice.

[nctnico]

When you opt to use Linux for your daily desktop you will be joining a group that represents less than 2% of desktop users worldwide.

Not necessarily true. In engineering you'll find a much higher percentage of Linux users. According to a poll earlier on this forum 30% uses Linux as their primary OS and 60% uses Linux regulary. There is a good reason CAD vendors have or are working on Linux versions. Orcad's PCB design tool already works on Linux and judging from the changes in the Orcad schematics tool it is likely to follow. Altium is also working on a Linux version. And then there are the major FPGA vendors. Their tools have been available for Linux for at least a decade. These companies are not going to support two OSses if this only serves 2% of their user base.

Your idea that there is no real serious use for Linux is completely wrong. I have several customers where the entire engineering department runs Linux as the primary OS.

[Nominal Animal]

The market has spoken!

Popularity and quality are not causally linked.  They aren't even strongly correlated.  That is, popularity is not a good indicator of quality.

Remember, Linux developers and maintainers are not looking to get a larger market share.  We are perfectly happy just making it better for ourselves.

[james_s]

With the exception of Microsoft and Apple, Linux is the prevalent desktop OS used in most of the major tech companies. At my last job the entire development department ran Linux, and at my current job most of the back end developers are on it with the remainder on Mac and a small handful of Windows machines that run Linux in a VM to run the dev environment.

Windows is the majority of the consumer market because most consumers just walk into a store and buy a computer with whatever comes on it and in the vast majority of cases that is Windows. At one point Windows was quite good, and it was marketed with a heavy hand that practically forced PC makers to offer it and nothing else and now it has momentum. It's the same reason a majority of cars sold these days are those silly "crossover" fake SUVs, it's not because they're good, in fact by most measures they're terrible, having all the disadvantages of multiple vehicle classes with few of the advantages. They are popular because people don't know any better so they buy what dealers are pushing and now it's hard to find anything else. The same thing happens with consumer electronics, the best selling stuff has always been the bottom of the barrel junk you can walk into Costco, Walmart, K-Mart, etc and buy.

[rstofer]

Your idea that there is no real serious use for Linux is completely wrong. I have several customers where the entire engineering department runs Linux as the primary OS.

Sure, an engineering department can be self-supporting.  They will have a good deal of collective experience with Linux and none of the startup problems will concern them.  Besides, they're likely to be pretty smart folks and have lots of problem solving skills.

I said I don't recommend Linux to 'casual users' and I maintain that point of view.  Absolutely NOTHING works right out of the box other than the desktop.  Everything else is going to be a PITA to install and how much pain that is will depend on how much experience you have.  The casual user simply won't know how to get the thing to work without spending hours on Google.  As a learning experience, it's great!  If you have no attention span (that'e me!), it is beyond unendurable.

Do you really expect a 'casual user' to want to build packages from source?  Most of the canned packages install correctly but there are still some things that require building from source in order to link to the header files and libraries.

I used Red Hat Linux as my primary (and only) desktop for several years starting back around '03.  Those were not the enlightened years for Linux and things have improved greatly.

The 'casual user' CAN get the system installed and the desktop functioning with very little effort.  As long as that satisfies their needs, it's all good.

Yes, the population of Linux desktop users is skewed to the high end.  But that doesn't alter the overall percentage, it just points how of uncommon it is for the 'casual user'.

[pcmad]

liux mint i use  ad if i will widows app i fire up a virual mechine

[NiHaoMike]

Chrome OS and Android are Linux (even if very different from a traditional Linux distribution) and most certainly have a lot more than 2% market share.

[Bud]

I said I don't recommend Linux to 'casual users' and I maintain that point of view.  Absolutely NOTHING works right out of the box other than the desktop.  Everything else is going to be a PITA to install and how much pain that is will depend on how much experience you have.  The casual user simply won't know how to get the thing to work without spending hours on Google. ...

Do you really expect a 'casual user' to want to build packages

Well said exactly to the pain point

[Monkeh]

I said I don't recommend Linux to 'casual users' and I maintain that point of view.  Absolutely NOTHING works right out of the box other than the desktop.  Everything else is going to be a PITA to install and how much pain that is will depend on how much experience you have.  The casual user simply won't know how to get the thing to work without spending hours on Google.  As a learning experience, it's great!  If you have no attention span (that'e me!), it is beyond unendurable.

Do you really expect a 'casual user' to want to build packages from source?  Most of the canned packages install correctly but there are still some things that require building from source in order to link to the header files and libraries.

What packages does the 'casual user' need to build from source?!

[rstofer]

liux mint i use

I really like the Mint distribution,  it is very well done!  Many years back I used to use Fedora - it was visually striking.  I can also deal with Ubuntu and any of the desktops other than Unity.  The sheer arrogance of moving the system buttons just staggers me.  Then doubling down and not allowing the user to reposition them?  Inexcusable!

[xrunner]

I really like the Mint distribution,  it is very well done! 

Me too, I just recommended it to a member in another thread. I have a Ryzen 7 running it for the Seti@Home project and it just chugs away with all 16 cores day after day. 

[rstofer]

What packages does the 'casual user' need to build from source?!

The 'casual user' by my definition is the one who browses the web and handles email.  They don't need anything.  A Chrome Book would do as would a cell phone.  The trouble starts when they have hardware issues or start to venture into programming.

Among other things, the Nvidia drivers used to have to be built and linked to the libraries.  It wasn't exactly 'source', it was more like binary blobs.  I never did understand the process, I just got forced into it by having bought a machine with an Nvidia card.  A 'do-over' was required with every kernel upgrade.

I'm pretty sure mpfr still needs to be built from source.  There's another similar package that also needs to be built but I have forgotten what is is.  I think mpfr is still required for some projects using gcc?  Same story with mpc?

The one positive thing that I always note:  I will not be the first person to discover some problem.  Somebody else will have fixed it and posted a tutorial.  Google becomes your best friend and there's a lot of help out there!

[Monkeh]

What packages does the 'casual user' need to build from source?!

The 'casual user' by my definition is the one who browses the web and handles email.  They don't need anything.  A Chrome Book would do as would a cell phone.  The trouble starts when they have hardware issues or start to venture into programming.

.. So the 'casual user' does not need to do anything, then..

Among other things, the Nvidia drivers used to have to be built and linked to the libraries.  It wasn't exactly 'source', it was more like binary blobs.  I never did understand the process, I just got forced into it by having bought a machine with an Nvidia card.  A 'do-over' was required with every kernel upgrade.

Yes, the nVidia driver still needs to be dealt with because nVidia are a gigantic sack of cocks. I'll give you that. Unfortunately a near impossible situation to resolve: They won't supply drivers under an acceptable license or documentation allowing practical writing of said drivers.

I'm pretty sure mpfr still needs to be built from source.  There's another similar package that also needs to be built but I have forgotten what is is.  I think mpfr is still required for some projects using gcc?  Same story with mpc?

I cannot imagine any distribution where mpfr and mpc (both LGPL libraries) require any special treatment, at least for the host OS. Toolchains for embedded systems are, of course, just like the embedded systems themselves, a complex and specialised subject.

[james_s]

I said I don't recommend Linux to 'casual users' and I maintain that point of view.  Absolutely NOTHING works right out of the box other than the desktop.  Everything else is going to be a PITA to install and how much pain that is will depend on how much experience you have.  The casual user simply won't know how to get the thing to work without spending hours on Google. ...

Do you really expect a 'casual user' to want to build packages

Well said exactly to the pain point

Why would a casual user *ever* have to build a package? Only power users do that, everyone else uses the app store or package manager. I can count on my fingers the number of times I've built a package from source in the last 10 years and none of those were really necessary, they were hack-y stuff I was playing with like RTL_433.

I put my computer illiterate mother on Ubuntu Mate 2 years ago and it's been smooth sailing. If I hadn't told her it was Linux she'd have likely just assumed it was just a new version of Windows. For the casual user the OS is all but irrelevant these days and getting more so all the time. If it runs Chrome and a word processor that's all most casual users need, millions of casual users have ditched the PC entirely in favor of mobile devices.

[rstofer]

What packages does the 'casual user' need to build from source?!

The 'casual user' by my definition is the one who browses the web and handles email.  They don't need anything.  A Chrome Book would do as would a cell phone.  The trouble starts when they have hardware issues or start to venture into programming.

.. So the 'casual user' does not need to do anything, then..

Not until they stray from the path...  Of course if that is all the user wants, email and browser, it doesn't matter which OS he picks.

Among other things, the Nvidia drivers used to have to be built and linked to the libraries.  It wasn't exactly 'source', it was more like binary blobs.  I never did understand the process, I just got forced into it by having bought a machine with an Nvidia card.  A 'do-over' was required with every kernel upgrade.

Yes, the nVidia driver still needs to be dealt with because nVidia are a gigantic sack of cocks. I'll give you that. Unfortunately a near impossible situation to resolve: They won't supply drivers under an acceptable license or documentation allowing practical writing of said drivers.

I'm pretty sure mpfr still needs to be built from source.  There's another similar package that also needs to be built but I have forgotten what is is.  I think mpfr is still required for some projects using gcc?  Same story with mpc?

I cannot imagine any distribution where mpfr and mpc (both LGPL libraries) require any special treatment, at least for the host OS. Toolchains for embedded systems are, of course, just like the embedded systems themselves, a complex and specialised subject.

I don't know why I ran into that complication, I wasn't compiling anything special but some part of the toolchain needed the libraries and wouldn't quite bitching until I downloaded them and built them from source.  I don't think mpfr or mpc are available as installable binaries.  I tried apt-get install mpfr with no success.  The package wasn't found.

ETA:  Now I remember!  I was building gcc from source to create the ARM cross-compiler.  The compiler needed the libraries in order to compile itself.  These days there may be an installable package.

There are other aggravations but I have struggled through all of them with no particular talent.  Google knows everything!  In every case, I was a little off the path of email and browsing.  Except for the Nvidia thing.  Dell sold me a Red Hat Enterprise Workstation with the Nvidia card installed and working.  It worked right up until the kernel got upgraded.  Then the postgraduate course began...

[soldar]

One more vote for Linux Mint. I have resolved the NVidia issue temporarily by taking out the NVidia card and using the on-board intel video which is supposedly worse but it works.

[nctnico]

On Debian the proprietary Nvidia drivers work out of the box. There is a tutorial to install them somewhere but these are a few simple steps.

[james_s]

A casual user is screwed if they stray off the path with any OS. The OS is virtually irrelevant to casual users, they have no idea how to fix anything that breaks or isn't working as expected.

[Nominal Animal]

I recommend not to use hardware that requires proprietary drivers, especially for new Linux users, because proprietary drivers makes problem-solving futile.

The reason is that kernel drivers have full access to internals, but without the proprietary driver sources, nobody can tell exactly what happened -- even if the proprietary drivers are not in the crash dump call chain: the error could have occurred much earlier, for example a critical kernel structure was damaged due to inappropriate modification.  For completely new bugs, one must first reproduce it without the proprietary drivers loaded (not just "unloaded"; not loaded at all, since last boot).  This makes bug-reporting a complete horror show for new users using proprietary drivers.

Some Nvidia cards work acceptably using the open-source Noveau drivers, as do some AMD cards using open-source Radeon and AMDGPU drivers. Integrated Intel graphics have open-source drivers.  I personally won't touch Nvidia, and prefer Intel or AMD hardware.  The only real sure way to find out, is to test your candidate Linux distributions using an USB stick or removable hard drive, on the actual hardware.

(There are ways to find out, but it involves checking pages and compatibility matrixes that I would rather not ask a new user to look through.  Practical testing works.)

[Jookia]

Windows is fairly good if you don't care about your OS that much.
The moment you need customization or tuning Linux turns out to be a much better choice.

[pcmad]

liux mint i use

I really like the Mint distribution,  it is very well done!  Many years back I used to use Fedora - it was visually striking.  I can also deal with Ubuntu and any of the desktops other than Unity.  The sheer arrogance of moving the system buttons just staggers me.  Then doubling down and not allowing the user to reposition them?  Inexcusable!

indeed i use ubuntu up untill 10.04 then moved to mint and desktop envirument mate  use to ubuntu redesign thing for the worst the  desktop envirument mate is very much like the gnome 2 which was layed out perectly and very easy to use  also ubuntu unity suck as it does not support multi screen

[rstofer]

I recommend not to use hardware that requires proprietary drivers, especially for new Linux users, because proprietary drivers makes problem-solving futile.

I agree!  It just turns out that the Nvidia card was included by Dell when I bought the Precision Work Station and the board worked fine until the first kernel upgrade.

Let me ask a serious question: Is the a Qualified Hardware List for Linux?  Is there a single site I can visit that either provides a list of hardware known to work or, at least, a list of hardware known to be problematic?

Microsoft used to have such a list but it seems like with Win 10, they check the hardware before installation but that is useless:

https://www.technorms.com/45229/check-windows-10-compatibility

So, what list do I take to the store when I am shopping for parts?  My last machine was built from bits and pieces from Amazon and it works for both Linux and Win 10 using the Intel graphics on the Gigabyte motherboard.  Just luck I guess!

The deal with Win 10 where they test during installation doesn't help much when your buying pieces.  By the time you find out it won't work, you already have stuff you can't use.  The good news is that nearly everything works with Win 10.  It would be highly unlikely to buy a current product that didn't work.  Now, that leftover '98 machine may not be up to snuff!

[Nominal Animal]

Let me ask a serious question: Is the a Qualified Hardware List for Linux?  Is there a single site I can visit that either provides a list of hardware known to work or, at least, a list of hardware known to be problematic?

No, there is no such list.  Several distributions have tried to provide one, but manufacturers have shown zero interest, and since they often change the hardware without changing the version number or product name, it is basically impossible for volunteers to maintain such lists.

So, what list do I take to the store when I am shopping for parts?

You first collect a list of candidates to choose from.  Then, you check the LKML and bugzillas (using a web search) for support and issues on each part, and reject the ones that have an issue reported more than once.  Start with the motherboard.

Current motherboards with integrated Intel graphics should be well supported in Linux, but the very newest models often need tweaking -- for example, the temperature sensors may not be supported yet.  So, the best bet is to look for established models, and look for problem/success reports.  In general, only "gaming" motherboards tend to have issues, and those mostly dealing with graphics and overclocking-related features.  Dual graphics chipset motherboards are particularly quirky, since the motherboard manufacturer decides their wiring, and they do not always bother to tell Linux devs how to do that.  For AMD chipsets, check if the support is already upstream, or whether you need to download stuff from AMD's website (which is not tenable in the long run; you want upstream support for Things To Just Work).  I've built a few machines using Gigabyte, Asrock, and MSI motherboards, but keep away from Asus for various personal reasons.

All motherboard manufacturers have qualified vendor lists (QVL) for recommended memory.  These are by chip, and usually include the wait states etc. details.  Just remember that "almost the same" is not "the same".  Linux uses unused memory as an I/O cache, so more memory means a larger part of your working set stays in memory; with SSDs, that is less of an issue.  In fall 2019, I'd look at using all lanes with 16 GB of RAM at least.

If you intend to just stripe or mirror drives, use softraid.  It is faster and portable across hardware.  Never use motherboard-integrated RAID features, they suck and leave you in a bind if you migrate the machine.  If you need just additional ports, look for JBOD (Just a Bunch Of Disks) support on the card.  If you are building a server with proper NAS, there is darn good support for server iron (because almost all clusters run on Linux).  The drives themselves are compatible, but their reliability differs A LOT.  For example, I will not trust any Seagate spinning-disk drive with my data, and for a good reason.  For SSD, I like Samsung, obviously, but I have much more experience with the spinning disk variety.  (Funnily enough, Samsung manufactured some really good but cheap 500GB and 1TB HDDs before they sold the unit to Seagate.)

USB devices are the nastiest to deal with.  Many physically different devices can be sold as the same device, and unless you check the actual USB vendor and product ID (VVVV:PPPP in hexadecimal), you won't know.  It is never printed on the package, though; you need to connect it to a computer and run lsusb to find out.  And, when you do that, it's less work to just test it as well.  (But do do a web trawl to see if the device is a dud, though.)

Graphic cards' ostensible support status you can find out by doing a web search, but only real-world testing will actually tell.  I don't like 'em, except for GPGPU use.  Yeah, I simulate a lot of stuff, and only play old-style HTML5 platform puzzle games.

For other extension cards you might need, for example extra network cards, do a web search like on the motherboards, or find out the exact chipset.  Basically all will be supported, but the quality varies. This is particularly true with wireless networking.  USB is easier for wireless networking, but is limited to 480 Mbit/s (about 45 Mbytes/sec in practice), as you can use up to 5m long USB cable. For PCIe cards, you may need extra antenna cables to move the antennae to somewhere sensible.

After you have the above sorted out, it is time to pick the chassis and the power supply.  I personally go for silencing, and spend quite a bit of time adding vibration and noise dampening, and extra fans to control the airflow.  I like having a 4-way fan and temperature controller in the front panel, just in case; with at least one of the temperature sensors measuring enclosure air temperature via a string-mounted heatsink.  I've thought about building a separate double box for my optical drive -- old backups and such --, to silence the darn thing.  I like making custom cases.  Heavy cases are easier to silence than lightweight ones.

So, overall, you do need to do a lot of extra work to build machines fully supported in upstream Linux without proprietary drivers and hassle. You need to trawl through web and mailing lists to find out possible problems in each component beforehand.  Most stuff is supported; you just don't want to get stuck with an important component that isn't.  This is why I recommend testing with a USB stick or external hard drive with ones preferred distro, instead.

After a couple of years of actual use, I can recommend HP EliteBook 830 G3 and 840 G4 laptops for Linux use, though.  But that's just because I happen to be writing this on one, with the other nearby.  I don't have current desktop or server hardware at hand to recommend.

[rstofer]

Pretty thorough response!   ^^^

As a result, you should plan to stay away from the bleeding edge of hardware.  It takes time for the volunteers to get around to adopting new hardware and coming up with drivers.  The WiFi mess of several years ago is one example.  It took forever to get WiFi working without a lot of twiddling.  I find that most distros of Linux and *BSD will run on my older Dell laptops.  The hardware is so old that it is well understood.

It doesn't help the process when manufacturers won't release driver source code.  Even Windows code would be a step in the right direction.

One way to test an existing system is to use one of the Live CD distros.  They are slower than molasses but if the Live CD runs, it is very likely the install will work as well.

I always pull the existing HDDs, label them and put them aside in case I want to come back.  Replacement drives are cheap (except for the very fast SSDs).

[edy]

I said I don't recommend Linux to 'casual users' and I maintain that point of view.  Absolutely NOTHING works right out of the box other than the desktop....The 'casual user' CAN get the system installed and the desktop functioning with very little effort.  As long as that satisfies their needs, it's all good.

I can share that sentiment and I did up to a few years ago before I dropped Windows, but not anymore. I had tried various Linux distros over the years and always came crawling back to Windows. It was a pain to install, a pain to configure, things would break and I'd spend hours looking for solutions which often required changing parameters in config files.

Then came a huge jump in "friendliness" several years ago. All of a sudden, we had Live USB's, Live DVD's, automatic dual-boot installation, all graphical environment, a Software Store, printers and WiFi and other stuff would just work, etc... The "casual user" could actually make a productive system based on one of the friendlier Linux distros and survive and thrive in it! Yes it may take a bit of learning but it wasn't the unsurmountable steep climb it had been in the past!

These days, I have introduced numerous "casual users" to using Linux and they wouldn't know the difference because things work. They just want to browse the web, watch videos, photos, email, do some office stuff (LibreOffice), edit some videos, play a few games, you know... "casual user" stuff. The Software Store is easy to use and find apps, they install and you can uninstall from there. WiFi is easy to use and connect for internet. They are shocked by the speed of Linux and lack of advertising or other popups, constant updates and reboots and the need for these virus-scanning tools that bog down and slow the system.

I also find installation is a breeze for the "casual user"... I have a USB key with Ubuntu Studio on it. Plug in and boot, and within a few minutes it is installing on the machine. It gives you practically one-button idiot-proof option to set up a dual-boot system with your old OS or simply wipe the drive and go all in with Linux. After a few minutes you are ready and you can start downloading stuff. It's no different than Win10 and I have set up a pile of machines with my Win10 USB key also. It's probably harder for the "casual user" to set up a bootable OS key than to use it.

Why is Linux barely scratching the market share percentage?

I agree... popularity is not necessarily a sign of superiority of technology. BlackBerry 10 is all but dead, but the OS was built on a surprisingly efficient Unix-like real-time operating system called QNX. I was one of the first developers for BlackBerry Playbook and then when BB OS 10 came out. I was thoroughly impressed and I still use my Playbooks and BB10 devices to this day. Sadly, the market could not handle a 3rd ecosystem so late in the game and BlackBerry had other corporate cultural issues and marketing problems that eventually doomed it. But it wasn't for the quality of BB OS 10 that it failed.

The number of Linux distros fractionates the market... There are so many players, it can be confusing to casual adopters, especially those that do not know where to start. While some people like Mint, others like Red Hat/Fedora and others like Ubuntu.... each has it's particular flavour and Desktop Environment, the fact that there are so many options for the "feel and look" also can paralyze some new users.

I've also talked to many people and told them about Linux, how fast it is, and that it is FREE, including free software like LibreOffice, VLC, Audacity, KDenLive, Blender, GIMP, and the list goes on and on and on.... and they always wonder "what is the catch?", or that if it's free it must be garbage. They simply CANNOT believe or wrap their minds around the fact that it is free!!!! There is a psychology behind this that seems counter-intuitive but it is happening!