3D Printer yet?

[chickadee]

I'm talking about using engineering grade materials to create engineering grade prototypes, or even production grade pieces with high dimensional accuracy and mechanical robustness.  The more I learn, the more it seems that heated chamber is obviously required, but choices are limited and the cost is much higher!  It appears that the older stratasys machines have been thoroughly hacked, and I'm curious if anyone on here has one?  If so, how are you powering it?  All of the specs I see indicate that they require 3-phase power and I'm curious what parts inside the printer are actually depending on the 3 phase input.  Most of the BLCD drivers I see will work with 3 phase, but can be configured for single phase as well... I wonder if the stratasys machines could be reconfigured in such a way?

[Brumby]

... hobby level printers ...
... commercial machine ...

Do you notice the distance between these two options...?  It's like the difference between a hand operated pan brake and a 100 ton hydraulic press.

Don't grumble when you get a wheelbarrow and it doesn't perform like a dump truck.

3D printing projectile weapons is getting big in USA and it seems that a machine like this would put you head and shoulders above anyone doing it with a hobby machine.

Projectile weapons?  That's a worry (to me, at least) - but, yes, you should expect a commercial machine to be far more capable - even if more expensive to acquire, operate and maintain.

[CatalinaWOW]

What does "engineering grade" mean?  Engineering is the art of achieving goals with available materials and processes.  I make wrenches, structural joints and other parts using a hobby grade 3D printer.  You just have to be aware of material limitations.  And realize that one tool doesn't fit all applications and some applications are just out of reach for some tools.

There has been much hype about 3D printed projectile weapons, but the reality is not really more worrisome than the decades old zip gun made with pipes, piano wire and scrap. 

[chickadee]

... hobby level printers ...
... commercial machine ...
Do you notice the distance between these two options...?  It's like the difference between a hand operated pan brake and a 100 ton hydraulic press.

Don't grumble when you get a wheelbarrow and it doesn't perform like a dump truck.

I really don't see that much of a difference if you consider what people are paying for higher end hobby printers vs. the used prices on the commercial machines - It looks to me like you can get a "commercial" grade machine that may need some repair for under $5,000 USD easily.

Projectile weapons?  That's a worry (to me, at least) - but, yes, you should expect a commercial machine to be far more capable - even if more expensive to acquire, operate and maintain.

It isn't a worry in the USA due to the number of weapons steadily climbing towards 1 billion already, as well as easy availability over the southern borders for stuff not normally sold in USA.  For other countries with more tyrannical rules on self defense and weapons, I can understand how it would be a worry for the bureaucrats but it's really only a good thing for the freedom minded.  Imagine this scenario:  Someone is breaking into my house!  Oh no! *prints weapon before murderer makes it through the door* (I know, this is a silly situation, but would make for a funny short film

What does "engineering grade" mean?  Engineering is the art of achieving goals with available materials and processes.  I make wrenches, structural joints and other parts using a hobby grade 3D printer.  You just have to be aware of material limitations.  And realize that one tool doesn't fit all applications and some applications are just out of reach for some tools.

There has been much hype about 3D printed projectile weapons, but the reality is not really more worrisome than the decades old zip gun made with pipes, piano wire and scrap.

To me it's material vs. dimensional stability and repeatability.  It really doesn't look like you can print a lot of the more exotic materials without a heated chamber, or rather, you can't print them w/o a heated chamber if you care about the dimensional stability/repeatability.  Also layer bonding for some of them.  I'm not an expert in any way, I am learning about this and deciding if I want to get a commercial grade machine.

The 3D printed weapons aren't hype, these new glass and carbon filled exotic materials are pretty amazing, people just aren't talking about these efforts online much since it tends to trigger(lol!!!) the bureaucrats.  I think we'll see some exciting developments in coming years, it may become very close to the new Lost In Space series (which I higly recommend watching!!!)

Danger, Will Robinson, danger!

[Brumby]

... hobby level printers ...
... commercial machine ...
Do you notice the distance between these two options...?  It's like the difference between a hand operated pan brake and a 100 ton hydraulic press.

Don't grumble when you get a wheelbarrow and it doesn't perform like a dump truck.

I really don't see that much of a difference if you consider what people are paying for higher end hobby printers vs. the used prices on the commercial machines - It looks to me like you can get a "commercial" grade machine that may need some repair for under $5,000 USD easily.

Really?  You get a Prusa and then start referring to machines in the $5000 range?  You really need to compare apples with apples.

Projectile weapons?  That's a worry (to me, at least) - but, yes, you should expect a commercial machine to be far more capable - even if more expensive to acquire, operate and maintain.

It isn't a worry in the USA due to the number of weapons steadily climbing towards 1 billion already, as well as easy availability over the southern borders for stuff not normally sold in USA.  For other countries with more tyrannical rules on self defense and weapons, I can understand how it would be a worry for the bureaucrats but it's really only a good thing for the freedom minded.  Imagine this scenario:  Someone is breaking into my house!  Oh no! *prints weapon before murderer makes it through the door* (I know, this is a silly situation, but would make for a funny short film

  Typical.

You pick up on the "guns" issue (mentioned in passing) and completely ignore my comment on the core subject matter of your posting.... the capabilities of 3D printers.

What does "engineering grade" mean?  Engineering is the art of achieving goals with available materials and processes.  I make wrenches, structural joints and other parts using a hobby grade 3D printer.  You just have to be aware of material limitations.  And realize that one tool doesn't fit all applications and some applications are just out of reach for some tools.

There has been much hype about 3D printed projectile weapons, but the reality is not really more worrisome than the decades old zip gun made with pipes, piano wire and scrap.

To me it's material vs. dimensional stability and repeatability.  It really doesn't look like you can print a lot of the more exotic materials without a heated chamber, or rather, you can't print them w/o a heated chamber if you care about the dimensional stability/repeatability.  Also layer bonding for some of them.

You need to understand the process - the considerations, limitations, environment, materials ... and a whole lot more before you start getting 'angry' that the technology doesn't do what you want.

I'm not an expert in any way,

That is clear.

I am learning about this

As am I.

and deciding if I want to get a commercial grade machine.

From what I have read so far, you have quite a way to go before you will be able to make an informed decision - but stick to it.  Get familiar with making your Prusa do what it is capable of and go from there.  Baby steps, or you might find yourself getting totally exasperated (rather than just annoyingly frustrated).

The 3D printed weapons aren't hype, these new glass and carbon filled exotic materials are pretty amazing, people just aren't talking about these efforts online much since it tends to trigger(lol!!!) the bureaucrats.  I think we'll see some exciting developments in coming years, it may become very close to the new Lost In Space series (which I higly recommend watching!!!)

Danger, Will Robinson, danger!

Yes, the materials science that is emerging around 3D printing is fascinating - but these exotic materials sometimes require special considerations, special processes or both to be used.

But - before you build your rocket ship, understand your ultralight and get it flying straight and true.

[sassywren]

............. completely ignore my comment on the core subject matter of your posting.... the capabilities of 3D printers.

I don't understand... You said it worried you and I said not to worry....  Sorry?

......................

I'm not an expert in any way,

That is clear.

Ok so now you're just being nasty and that isn't helpful at all......

I am learning about this

As am I.

Then why are you even attempting to offer advice?

and deciding if I want to get a commercial grade machine.

From what I have read so far, you have quite a way to go before you will be able to make an informed decision - but stick to it.  Get familiar with making your Prusa do what it is capable of and go from there.  Baby steps, or you might find yourself getting totally exasperated (rather than just annoyingly frustrated).

It just seems like you wanted to make a post and picked me as your innocent victim 

[beanflying]

It just seems like you wanted to make a post and picked me as your innocent victim 

You are hardly an Innocent and stop being a dick with multiple accounts already  Your original account must be nearly unbanned by now.

[sassywren]

It just seems like you wanted to make a post and picked me as your innocent victim 

You are hardly an Innocent and stop being a dick with multiple accounts already  Your original account must be nearly unbanned by now.

I wasn't trying to be mean!  I just read through his entire post looking for something.... And it was not...
And now your post.  Were you going to give feedback to my question?

I am just wondering if anyone on here has acquired a used/broken/etc commercial grade printer and what their experience has been, with powering it, with using it, with repairing it?   There seem to be a lot of them out there, and if there is anyone on here doing engineering grade work then there must be someone who has something like this?

[Brumby]

I am just wondering if anyone on here has acquired a used/broken/etc commercial grade printer and what their experience has been, with powering it, with using it, with repairing it?   There seem to be a lot of them out there, and if there is anyone on here doing engineering grade work then there must be someone who has something like this?

This is the first time you've expressed yourself with clarity.

Your previous efforts indicated a severe lack of understanding and were becoming indistinguishable from trolling.

As for this:

I am learning about this

As am I.

Then why are you even attempting to offer advice?

 1. It seemed I knew a little more than you.
 2. Only seeking advice from people who know it all will end in silence.


Anyway - since you've now expressed a clear question, I will stand aside, as I do not have any experience to contribute to that area.

[sassywren]

I'm sorry I asked the question originally and then responded like 3 times and the question was basically lost so it's really my fault 

[xrunner]

More toys to play with for the Ender - a Bigtreetech TFT35-E3 touch screen display ($35) and a new control board Bigtreetech SKR Mini E3 v1.2 32 bit with TMC 2209 silent stepper drivers ($37). Will be installing in the next few days.

Trinamic silent stepper technology -

[beanflying]

More toys to play with for the Ender - a Bigtreetech TFT35-E3 touch screen display ($35) and a new control board Bigtreetech SKR Mini E3 v1.2 32 bit with TMC 2209 silent stepper drivers ($37). Will be installing in the next few days.

Trinamic silent stepper technology -

So hows you 'budget' $1k Ender 3 actually doing 

This ran across my youtube feed this morning over coffee the STL files for the buckets are in the video discription and for those without woodworking skills or interests then find some shallow square edged plastic tubs (food industry has heaps of options) Wonder how many days of printing and how many kg of filament 

[xrunner]

So hows you 'budget' $1k Ender 3 actually doing 

It's a little over-budget at this time. 

Hey it turned into a hobby in and of itself - it keeps me off the streets at night. 

[xrunner]

Wonder how many days of printing and how many kg of filament 

*** Rough Estimate ***

I made a box with cut outs for an El Cheepo frequency counter. I used this for a basis for an estimate (see pic). The box has 2mm walls - his wall might be bigger. I estimated how much more plastic it would take to fill the holes in the box by adding some scrap, then weighed it. It was 23.6 g. I'm going to just use 25 g for my starting point. Then, how much bigger are his smallest boxes (the red ones). Twice as big? So that's 50 g/box. Let's just use that for now. So we have this from observation in the video:

Using the smallest boxes he got a 6 x 6 grid in a drawer. He has 18 drawers in the cart. So just using the small boxes we have 6 * 6 * 18 = 648 boxes.

We have 50 g/box * 648 boxes = 32.4 kg, which is 32.4 rolls of filament. 

How much time? You estimate that part. 

[beanflying]

12m of Filament allowing for a little waste and 3.5 hours each based on my stock Ender settings.

So for 648 of the wee beasties 26kg of Filament and 2268 Hours of Print only time = one really bored human 

In straight material costs in it makes each bucket about $0.8 ($0.56 USD) plus a bit of power so are they worth making is a bit of a toss up  . I know he runs more than one printer and you could certainly load up the bed with multiples to stay sane. Four per bed changed every 12 hours or so.

I made a couple of smaller trays with lids for my 3 and 4mm hardware per below. CR-10 sized design 240x160. 65m of filament and a touch over 24 hours print time. Similarly not really worth it but I got exactly what I wanted and a lid that keeps washers and everything else in their allotted hole. It was more for the Fusion learning than anything else at the time. Was it worth it - maybe  but I enjoy using them both almost everyday  .

edit found a photo of some of the detail finished item.

[sleemanj]

Print with a single wall, 1mm nozzle, 0.75mm layer height and you'll churn them out pretty quick.

But I would certainly look for ready-made ones before going to the trouble of printing them all.

[beanflying]

More woodworking 'crap'  Not entirely true as these same Tracksaw dogs and Track mounts will now get used for breaking up Acrylic sheets for my Laser Cutter in particular and also I have a job coming up where I need to cut a fair amount of T-Track for making a larger format Laser.

The different height tops are held on with a philipshead screw into the base dog which contains an M3 knurl nut.

Gratuitous shot of my currently virginal Shellac and Waxed polished bench from a page or so back to use with them.  Dead easy method now for 90 or 45 degree cuts with just a single measurement.

[Nominal Animal]

Gratuitous shot of my currently virginal Shellac and Waxed polished bench from a page or so back to use with [the bench dogs].

Looks nice!  But, did you apply shellac to the dog holes?  I would, if I were you.

[beanflying]

I haven't as they are a very neat 20mm and I have tuned the dogs to come off the printer at 19.9mm. The Fusion design measurement was 19.7 so I am blaming the triangular type motion conversion for some of it plus I do run a slight over extraction on the extruder.

I am going to make a pull through gun style for the bores and Beeswax/Oil them for some glue/moisture proofing and it will lubricate the dogs for no real final reduction in bore with a final dry pull.

But maybe a test one on some MDF with a single pull through of Shellac but I think the bore would then need to be denibbed as the Shellac will tend to make the fuzzy bits hard requiring the bore to be sanded I suspect 

[Nominal Animal]

But maybe a test one on some MDF with a single pull through of Shellac but I think the bore would then need to be denibbed as the Shellac will tend to make the fuzzy bits hard requiring the bore to be sanded I suspect 

Whatever you end up doing, please do keep us informed.  I personally avoid MDF because of its tendency to bulge when any moisture gets inside, and the possible glue fumes that may slowly release creeps me out.  (Already had formaldehyde poisoning as a kid due to that from particle board.)

I like shellac (crushed female lac bugs, yummy!), and if it or oil/beeswax (which I like even more) works to protect the MDF from occasional moisture, that would be very useful to know.  Also, if you do try shellacing the dog holes, do tell us how much the hole diameter changes, as then one could compensate for that, approximately, in the future.

I wonder if the dogs could have had some compliant structures to increase the friction?  Say, three bridge-like friction arc elements or something.

[beanflying]

The formaldehyde is an issue in particular for older manufactured boards and plys. Modern MDF has improved that a lot including MRMDF (Moisture Resistant MDF) We are only starting to se that one out in Country Oz but it should be widely available in the EU as should be the low formaldehyde ones.

Shellac is a bit of a lost thing (including in electronics/electrical use) but it has a lot going for it. As a finish I have used it for a tone change to wood then put a clear coat over the Shellac which works well for a general purpose job. In this case the Wax and Oil is more for a slick surface and easy touchup if needed later.

Changing out the dog diameter to suit the holes is the sensible thing if it gets a change as the holes were done with a 20mm Forstner bit until I get my larger CNC router going. With the current tolerances there is no need for friction aids on the bore fit and if you undersize to much and use clips you will lose some of the angular accuracy in the working parts.

I will get back here when I have had a bit more of a play much as it is OT 

[Brumby]

... for making a larger format Laser.

Interesting ..... What cutting area are you aiming for?

I'm contemplating something along those lines, targeting something like 1250mm x 950mm, but that's still in the 'musing' stage.

[Brumby]

To be honest, I'm looking at this as a motion system - with the possibility of being able to run a 3D printing extruder on it.

Maybe a tool-changing arrangement..... ?


Big ideas ..... small budget.   

[beanflying]

Just over a 1/4 sheet so clearance on 1200x600. 80-100W is the current plan. Based on this Kiwi design with some tweaks https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ72zDm2feverqV7qAbNH7Q/videos The Fusion 360 Plans and materials lists are well worth the few $

[beanflying]

To be honest, I'm looking at this as a motion system - with the possibility of being able to run a 3D printing extruder on it.

Maybe a tool-changing arrangement..... ?

Big ideas ..... small budget.   

It has been tried commercially in one form or another. Unless you want prints running for a week then nozzles in the multiple mm diameter with fat layer lines to match  I think going back to other options first would make more sense unless you like the layered thing.