EV-based road transportation is not viable

[tom66]

Elections are rarely single-issue local events.

Most people vote tribally based on whether they like the government do jour.

That could be avoided if referendums are commonplace, but the chances of that happening here are zero after the Brexit fiasco.

We must have different perspectives.  Local elections are very much the opposite of governmental elections.  Councillors are not elected so often on their party rosette but what they promise to their constituents and if it's a small area, how favourable they are there.  That's why you always have to tread carefully trying to read general election sentiment on the odd council by-election.

Local government by-n-large is a shitshow in this country but that's more because they have too much authority over the things they shouldn't have anything to do with and the people involved often seem to be bloody awful (see, "Handforth").  So, whether the council will be able to change policy is more debatable, but at least they shouldn't be able to step in the way of government doing something about charging infrastructure, should a national policy be announced. (Though I hope to god it's nothing like those awful "GB Design" charging points they announced last year.  Euck.)

[tggzzz]

Elections are rarely single-issue local events.

Most people vote tribally based on whether they like the government do jour.

That could be avoided if referendums are commonplace, but the chances of that happening here are zero after the Brexit fiasco.

We must have different perspectives.  Local elections are very much the opposite of governmental elections.  Councillors are not elected so often on their party rosette but what they promise to their constituents and if it's a small area, how favourable they are there.  That's why you always have to tread carefully trying to read general election sentiment on the odd council by-election.

Local government by-n-large is a shitshow in this country but that's more because they have too much authority over the things they shouldn't have anything to do with and the people involved often seem to be bloody awful (see, "Handforth").  So, whether the council will be able to change policy is more debatable, but at least they shouldn't be able to step in the way of government doing something about charging infrastructure, should a national policy be announced. (Though I hope to god it's nothing like those awful "GB Design" charging points they announced last year.  Euck.)

Most voters don't read, and do vote based on the rosette. Frequently, as with Brexit, there is a significant degree of voting against whichever set of rosettes is in Westminster.

Designs, in whatever sphere, often end up not as the best but as what no participant deems unacceptable. So expect more suboptimal designs and very expensive of the not-so-smart smart electricity meter fiasco.

Amateurs, dreamers, and prosyletisers think about how things work. Engineers and professionals that have to get and keep things working think about how things fail.

Good intentions and wishful thinking are insufficient.

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

Now they go VROOOOOOM!!!!!

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/hear-electric-dodge-charger-daytonas-exhaust-muscular-sound

[mikeselectricstuff]

Even if you could build 5-10 MW chargers to get electricity into car batteries nearly as fast as petrol into a tank, those are going to require batteries all of their own just to handle the huge surge power.  Every former petrol station would have to become a grid storage site, just to offset some of the cost.

The charging plugs will probably need a water connection too.

High power DC chargers already have liquid cooling of the cable and plug

[nctnico]

Even if you could build 5-10 MW chargers to get electricity into car batteries nearly as fast as petrol into a tank, those are going to require batteries all of their own just to handle the huge surge power.  Every former petrol station would have to become a grid storage site, just to offset some of the cost.

Which is where hydrogen comes in... It doesn't have all these problems. Large scale or small scale charging, in the end the energy needs to be stored in bulk somewhere.

The charging plugs will probably need a water connection too.

That exists already.

[tom66]

Now they go VROOOOOOM!!!!!

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/hear-electric-dodge-charger-daytonas-exhaust-muscular-sound

When I first got my hybrid, I had read it has a "soundaktor" function when in the sport mode, which adds internal cabin noise to make the engine sound beefier than the tiny 1.4L it really is.

I thought I'd hate it and disconnect the wiring harness by the next day, but I actually quite like it.

It's weird.  Psychologically we expect noise from a vehicle travelling fast.  I do like the silent acceleration in electric mode, but I also don't hate the noise inside the cabin, under slightly sporty driving conditions.

Maybe it'll get boring eventually.  My next car will almost certainly not have it as a function.

[nctnico]

Why would you like to have extra noise in the cabin? To me the idea is insane. Sound doesn't make a car go faster.  My previous car had a rather loud diesel engine. I installed over 25 sqm of thick, sound proofing rubber mats in it to lower the noise a bit. I took the entire interior + lining out and put the rubber mats underneath.

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

In the past there were complaints of steam vehicles being too quiet and then in the 60's the Chrysler turbine sounded like a "Vacuum Cleaner"

When we were developing electric vehicles at GM in the 1980's the safety concern of a quiet vehicle was also addressed as a problem.

[TimFox]

Why would you like to have extra noise in the cabin? To me the idea is insane. Sound doesn't make a car go faster.  My previous car had a rather loud diesel engine. I installed over 25 sqm of thick, sound proofing rubber mats in it to lower the noise a bit. I took the entire interior + lining out and put the rubber mats underneath.

Why do motorcyclists insist on loud noise from their machines?  It's a matter of taste.
However,  there are regulations requiring audible sounds outside the vehicle to warn pedestrians of its approach.
US regulation for hybrid and electric vehicles (2022): 

"To protect pedestrians and other road users, FMVSS No. 141 requires HEVs to emit a pedestrian alert sound while operating in certain conditions.
The alert sound on a given vehicle is allowed to change with vehicle operating speed or direction—the standard defines five different operating conditions: stationary in neutral or forward gear and with constant forward speed less than 10 km/h; reverse; and moving at constant forward speed from 10 km/h up to but not including 20 km/h, from 20 km/h up to 30 km/h, and at or just above 30 km/h. Beyond that speed, alert sounds are no longer required by FMVSS No. 141 as other sounds such as tires and airflow produce enough sound to make the vehicle detectable."

[tggzzz]

Why would you like to have extra noise in the cabin? To me the idea is insane. Sound doesn't make a car go faster.  My previous car had a rather loud diesel engine. I installed over 25 sqm of thick, sound proofing rubber mats in it to lower the noise a bit. I took the entire interior + lining out and put the rubber mats underneath.

I (used to) use engine noise subliminally as a speedometer, particularly to detect small changes in speed.

In another vehicle I've used, the air noise was the equivalent of the constant beeps from radiation monitors in Sellafield nuclear reprocessing plant. If either disappear, you rapidly become very alert and find out why

[nctnico]

Why would you like to have extra noise in the cabin? To me the idea is insane. Sound doesn't make a car go faster.  My previous car had a rather loud diesel engine. I installed over 25 sqm of thick, sound proofing rubber mats in it to lower the noise a bit. I took the entire interior + lining out and put the rubber mats underneath.

Why do motorcyclists insist on loud noise from their machines?  It's a matter of taste.
However,  there are regulations requiring audible sounds outside the vehicle to warn pedestrians of its approach.
US regulation for hybrid and electric vehicles (2022): 

But those relate to outside sounds. I don't want to have sounds inside the car except for the radio or having a conversation with a passenger. Sure I had a rattle on the wheels of my bike when I was 8 years old but I have outgrown that quickly.

[TimFox]

Why would you like to have extra noise in the cabin? To me the idea is insane. Sound doesn't make a car go faster.  My previous car had a rather loud diesel engine. I installed over 25 sqm of thick, sound proofing rubber mats in it to lower the noise a bit. I took the entire interior + lining out and put the rubber mats underneath.

Why do motorcyclists insist on loud noise from their machines?  It's a matter of taste.
However,  there are regulations requiring audible sounds outside the vehicle to warn pedestrians of its approach.
US regulation for hybrid and electric vehicles (2022): 

But those relate to outside sounds. I don't want to have sounds inside the car except for the radio or having a conversation with a passenger. Sure I had a rattle on the wheels of my bike when I was 8 years old but I have outgrown that quickly.

Outside sounds are a matter of regulation.
Inside sounds are a matter of taste.
Have you watched a child play with a toy car?  They always make car noises while pushing it along the floor.
Motorcycles are both inside and outside.
Personally, I prefer quiet, with minimal noise from my car, passing motorcycles, and subwoofers from the pickup truck next to me at the traffic light.
Since my modestly-priced car has non-minimal cabin noise, I did not buy an expensive audio system to listen to classical music.

[Marco]

High power DC chargers already have liquid cooling of the cable and plug

That leaves the battery pack.

The standard cooling system isn't going to accomplish much against 100+ kW of heating. It's pretty much all going to go into the battery pack.

[tggzzz]

What would even be the point of charging a 60 kWh battery in 35 seconds rather than 10 minutes?

Charging like that would be like refilling an ICE engine's tank.
Major benefit: the existing petrol stations could be repurposed
Major benefit: no need for very expensive new distributed fragile infrastructure everywhere cars are parked.

[tom66]

Imagine putting massive carbon-carbon brakes on a stock Prius or bicycle rim brakes on an F1 car. It makes no sense. If your car has a battery that can dissipate XXX kilowatts of heat when charging, and the plumbing + thermal capacity to handle that, the car's going to be marketed as capable of that heat dissipation capability while driving (discharging) too. It's going to have a cooler good for XXX kilowatts already. And, this might be surprising, but usually batteries can discharge faster than they can charge, while the resistance is the same -- so you're always going to have more heat rejection capacity than you need for charging anyway.

Yeah I heard this idea before that we'll have 2-3MW+ charging and I don't buy it.  You don't reasonably need more than 250kW discharge, so if you had that much charge current, your battery, all of its current collectors, busbars, main wiring, contactors etc. would have to be oversized for that charging current.  Lots of weight and cost for that.  More likely the people who don't like stopping so often will get a 100-120kWh battery car instead of a 60kWh battery car.  120kWh at 3.5mi/kWh gets you 420 miles ^(nice) so if it could do say 650-700 miles with one 10 minute stop then it's pretty close to as convenient as an ICE.

[PlainName]

could do say 650-700 miles with one 10 minute stop

I wish I could manage that!

[tom66]

Why would you like to have extra noise in the cabin? To me the idea is insane. Sound doesn't make a car go faster.  My previous car had a rather loud diesel engine. I installed over 25 sqm of thick, sound proofing rubber mats in it to lower the noise a bit. I took the entire interior + lining out and put the rubber mats underneath.

It's nice to have it sometimes.  Driving through a nice road with lots of twists and turns keeping up with the flow can be quite fun - but then again I enjoy that type of driving and the auditory feedback is part of that.  It's also nice that it makes the noise inside the cabin but outside sounds just like a regular car, so there's no antisocial factor to it like cars with loud exhausts which I can't stand.

But you can turn it off easily.  It's an electric motor in a vibrating resonant chamber, in the electric and "normal" modes it makes no sound.

[Marco]

You've made up a straw man, sadly.

We're just having a flowing discussion, someone brought up even faster than current fast charging could change the situation and I posit that might run into thermal limits as well as requiring the charging stations to charge from batteries.

EVs today don't need 10 MW of charging power and 100 kW of cooling. What would even be the point of charging a 60 kWh battery in 35 seconds rather than 10 minutes?

EV owners self select, once people are pushed into EVs they will become ornery when it ill suits their living arrangement ... don't want too many ornery people.

Changing out fluids in car battery cooling systems is hard enough as is

You wouldn't pump fluid through the car cooling/heating system, the system would have a heat exchanger to the loop from the charging station.

Then again, maybe I'm misjudging how much temperature the new battery chemistries can stand. Propylene glycol has a high boiling point, so there is plenty of room to push heat into them from that respect.

[Marco]

Yeah I heard this idea before that we'll have 2-3MW+ charging and I don't buy it.  You don't reasonably need more than 250kW discharge, so if you had that much charge current, your battery, all of its current collectors, busbars, main wiring, contactors etc. would have to be oversized for that charging current.

You can do the same thing as Tesla is planning to do in the charging cable/connector to keep it lithe, immerse most of it in flowing coolant.

[TimFox]

My basic question about "viability":
The market for EVs continues to grow steadily, due to regular market forces and government subsidies.
What will stop it, if it be unviable?

[CatalinaWOW]

My basic question about "viability":
The market for EVs continues to grow steadily, due to regular market forces and government subsidies.
What will stop it, if it be unviable?

I think it is viable.  But viability and commercial success aren't the same thing.  Look at local and long distance public transportation.  Clearly viable, and demonstrated in many parts of the world.  But it has filled a very small role here in the US for a variety of social and economic reasons. 

The future is always tough to predict.  The EV market seemed viable back at the start of the twentieth century.   As far as I can tell two related things killed it.  First was that gasoline was better able to compete with the then very undeveloped electrical network.  So there was a larger market opportunity and the associated benefits of scaling.  Second, as the electrical grid expanded it was AC, and technology to convert this to the DC needed for car charging was bulky and unreliable (if you look for where the EV vehicle penetration was greatest back then it was where DC power distribution was still available, or in some cases the only choice).   

While it seems unlikely at the moment it is possible that hydrogen could do the same thing.  Or something else unforeseen.  Reality has a way of trumping everyone's dreams - especially the fanboys on both sides of the EV/ICE debate who wildly magnify the benefits of their favorite while magnifying the faults of the competitor. 

[nctnico]

Indeed. One of the technologies that can not be ruled out at this moment are bio-fuels made from residual waste from growing food. At the moment things are awfully quiet where it comes to expansion but there are several companies that are doing this on an industrial scale. The only problem is that at soon as you say 'bio fuel' somebody utterly uninformed about the latest state chimes in and goes around saying 'bio-fuels make people go hungry' while the opposite is actually true. If we use more from edible plants, it will be cheaper to grow food. Let's face it: from many plants we only eat the seeds / fruits while leaving quite a large amount of plant material that goes unused. Using bio-fuels would also mean the ICE is here to stay. And to those worried about pollution: running an ICE on methanol produces much less pollution compared to gasoline.

[tggzzz]

The oldies are the goodies.

I remember, in the 70s, seeing an equivalent article about nuclear vs coal generated electricity.
https://geoff.greer.fm/2023/02/08/gasoline-car-review/

[VK3DRB]

I don't own an EV, and quite frankly, the cost of ownership in this country is far too high for what you get. It is not very viable here.

Premier Daniel Andrews of the Victorian state government introduced a per kilometre tax on anyone driving EV's. We are the only jurisdiction in the world to have such a tax. It is 3 cents per km now, but I read it could rise significantly if and when EV's become popular. Bozo's rationale is that the EV drivers are dodging the fuel excise (tax) and it is unfair. You don't pay the tax, your EV is unregistered and if you then drive it you will cop a very hefty fine.

The state govt is being now taken to the High Court over this tax arguably being unconstitutional and illegal...
https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/blockbuster-high-court-case-tests-validity-of-electric-vehicle-tax-20230214-p5ckce

If Dan's government wins, the other states may well follow this grab for cash. If they lose, a lot of money may need to be refunded based on an illegal tax (plus interest). Not the first time governments in Australia have been dodgy (ie: Robodebt - which had catastrophic consequences).

[tom66]

It's a typical anti-EV policy by a government that's opposed to them for various reasons.  From a quick Google it appears that Victoria state has huge oil and gas refining and resource, so you can imagine the lobbyists have a lot of influence.