Proof that software as service/cloud based, will never work for long term ...

[nctnico]

Same has happened in the NL and even worse. 10 years ago you could buy a car starting at 9k euro. Nowadays the cheapest car sets you back around 18k. Corrected for inflation the increase is 30%. The claim is that adding required safety features is driving the costs up.

Is that pollution tax?  In Norway, a VW Golf diesel isn't much cheaper than a Model 3 for similar reasons (389,000 NOK vs 499,000 NOK)  whereas in the UK the difference is much bigger, about 100% more expensive to get the Tesla.

No. Just the base car price going up.

[Someone]

Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.

Baloney!
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car Cheap cars have more capability/safety/features/functions than ever and still remain cheap.

You can argue with me, but you can't argue with the facts!


According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the median individual income in 1976 was $6,617 which is $32,572 in 2023 dollars, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator.

Consumers paid an average price of $5,450 ($29,586 in 2023 dollars) for a new car in 1976, according to National Automobile Dealers Association numbers.

So, in 1976 Joe Average could buy  $32,572 / $29,586  =   1.1 average new cars per year for his Joe Average wage.

In the year 2022, the median individual income was $46,001 and the average price of a new car at the end of 2022 was $49,388!   

So in 2022, Joe Average can now only afford 0.93 new average cars per year on his Joe Average salary.

That's almost a 20% increase in price, on average, compared to median salary.   The only reason Joe Average can afford these increases is...   increased debt, paid off over longer time.   Cars as a service, essentially!

Stupid people choose to spend more of their money on more expensive cars? That is choice, cars in general have not become more expensive but people are choosing more expensive cars. And getting worked up over some 10-20% shift? overreaction:

Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.

Even with your figures, that doesn't ring true.

[Someone]

Same has happened in the NL and even worse. 10 years ago you could buy a car starting at 9k euro. Nowadays the cheapest car sets you back around 18k. Corrected for inflation the increase is 30%. The claim is that adding required safety features is driving the costs up.

Is that pollution tax?  In Norway, a VW Golf diesel isn't much cheaper than a Model 3 for similar reasons (389,000 NOK vs 499,000 NOK)  whereas in the UK the difference is much bigger, about 100% more expensive to get the Tesla.

No. Just the base car price going up.

Well your unreferenced figures (as usual) are cherry picked and/or misleading:
https://russianvagabond.com/cheapest-car-in-the-netherlands-guide/
There are cheap vehicles with manufacturer recommended pricing around and under 10k euro, but like the rest of the world with the shortage of automotive deliveries street pricing is exaggerated at the moment.

[Kim Christensen]

That's almost a 20% increase in price, on average, compared to median salary.   The only reason Joe Average can afford these increases is...   increased debt, paid off over longer time.   Cars as a service, essentially!

Perhaps cause and effect are reversed here: Access to easy credit is what has driven up the cost of cars.
If people can't afford to pay cash, manufacturers would build cheaper cars if credit wasn't as cheap and easy.
ie: In the 70's air conditioning was a luxury option. Now it's almost standard.

[SilverSolder]

[...]
Stupid people choose to spend more of their money on more expensive cars? That is choice, cars in general have not become more expensive but people are choosing more expensive cars. And getting worked up over some 10-20% shift? overreaction:

Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.

Even with your figures, that doesn't ring true.

It's not just stupid people choosing to spend more, it is smart people being forced to spend more, because the lower price cars are simply not available at the car dealerships...  they now only sell the gold plated luxury spec versions of every model, the cheap ones are difficult to find.

Consider also that even if cars have "only" gone up 20% relative to median wages, if you look at what has happened to the "real terms" price of housing, food, energy, healthcare, education, ....  etc. -  all of these have also gone up significantly.

The net effect is to send people into deep debt and squeezing their disposable income.   If you are old enough to remember how Europeans and Americans lived in the 60s, 70s, and even 80s you will know instinctively that this is all true.   I personally know people that bought houses in the UK for less than GBP 1,000 back then, lol.  I'm not sure what happened!

[james_s]

The net effect is to send people into deep debt and squeezing their disposable income.   If you are old enough to remember how Europeans and Americans lived in the 60s, 70s, and even 80s you will know instinctively that this is all true.   I personally know people that bought houses in the UK for less than GBP 1,000 back then, lol.  I'm not sure what happened!

A lot of things happened, not the least of which is the fact that there are far more people on the planet today, all vying for a share of the same resources. Then environmental and safety regulations pushed production of many things to regions where those regulations don't exist, and/or increased the cost of the items in order to meet the new requirements. People's expectations have increased too, back in the 60s American houses were much smaller than they are today, my parents both grew up with 3-4 siblings in small single floor post-war suburban houses. It wasn't until sometime in the 60s that they had a TV at all and then there was only one of them. The family had one car that was shared, they had a lot fewer toys and luxuries. Cars were a lot simpler back then too, not just in terms of mandated features but creature comforts. Stuff like power windows, power locks, air conditioning, power steering, power mirrors, power adjusted seats, heated seats, etc were either uncommon or just plain didn't exist. Now it's hard to even find a car without most of those things and I suspect few people would actually buy one if it was offered. People like myself that enjoy a simple manual-everything car are few and far between and even I find power windows and mirrors convenient and air conditioning makes driving on hot days a lot less miserable.

[SiliconWizard]

That's almost a 20% increase in price, on average, compared to median salary.   The only reason Joe Average can afford these increases is...   increased debt, paid off over longer time.   Cars as a service, essentially!

Perhaps cause and effect are reversed here: Access to easy credit is what has driven up the cost of cars.
If people can't afford to pay cash, manufacturers would build cheaper cars if credit wasn't as cheap and easy.
ie: In the 70's air conditioning was a luxury option. Now it's almost standard.

That's for sure.
Spiraling debt is an integral part of our current economic system, and we are currently witnessing how it ends up like.

[madires]

Another Microsoft 365 outage yesterday: Microsoft 365 outage blocks access to web apps and services (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-365-outage-blocks-access-to-web-apps-and-services/)

[Nominal Animal]

Spiraling debt is an integral part of our current economic system, and we are currently witnessing how it ends up like.

The requirement for continued growth is based on the fact that the current system requires there is always more debt than money in circulation.  To pay for the debt, growth is absolutely required, or the system fails.

When one truly understands how the current worldwide financial system constructs fiat money based on debt owed to private central banks, one tends to not want to live on this planet anymore.
It really is only a step forward from slavery; peonage or debt bondage, to be specific. 

[BravoV]

It really is only a step forward from slavery; peonage or debt bondage, to be specific. 

Remember, whenever you heard ... "You will OWN NOTHING, and you will be HAPPY" ... especially from the weird group of "rich" people in Switzerland (you're smart enough to know who) ... then be scared, be really-really scared and the 1st thing to do is run away. 

*"rich" ... people with really old money, probably looted since WW2, hell, even the former Credit Suisse bank still holds those accounts until these days (check latest US news, they (US senate) just discovered those "old money"). 

[PlainName]

people with really old money, probably looted since WW2

WW2 era money is 'new' money to those for whom it might be relevant.

[themadhippy]

It really is only a step forward from slavery

#
yea but slavery costs the slave owner  money in the upkeep of the slaves,food accommodation, transportation etc.Better to set  us  free and let us  get in debt,  to there credit providing mates ,paying for our accommodation food and getting to and from the work site,but hey were free!

[nctnico]

Same has happened in the NL and even worse. 10 years ago you could buy a car starting at 9k euro. Nowadays the cheapest car sets you back around 18k. Corrected for inflation the increase is 30%. The claim is that adding required safety features is driving the costs up.

Is that pollution tax?  In Norway, a VW Golf diesel isn't much cheaper than a Model 3 for similar reasons (389,000 NOK vs 499,000 NOK)  whereas in the UK the difference is much bigger, about 100% more expensive to get the Tesla.

No. Just the base car price going up.

Well your unreferenced figures (as usual) are cherry picked and/or misleading:
https://russianvagabond.com/cheapest-car-in-the-netherlands-guide/
There are cheap vehicles with manufacturer recommended pricing around and under 10k euro, but like the rest of the world with the shortage of automotive deliveries street pricing is exaggerated at the moment.

That ChatGPT generated websit forgot to include sales taxes. The cheapest car they list cost 16k euro to buy. So start eating your hat. But take your foot out of your mouth first. Did you really think I didn't check a list with cheapest cars?

[PlainName]

That ChatGPT generated website...

Indeed. Has such gems as "Used cars are more expensive than new ones as they have higher maintenance costs." And then posts table showing the exact opposite.

[SiliconWizard]

Spiraling debt is an integral part of our current economic system, and we are currently witnessing how it ends up like.

The requirement for continued growth is based on the fact that the current system requires there is always more debt than money in circulation.  To pay for the debt, growth is absolutely required, or the system fails.

When one truly understands how the current worldwide financial system constructs fiat money based on debt owed to private central banks, one tends to not want to live on this planet anymore.
It really is only a step forward from slavery; peonage or debt bondage, to be specific. 

Pretty much so.

But as I said, it is already starting to collapse.
The problem is that its collapse will harm a lot of people and I'm afraid the aftermath is going to be even more enslaving for the majority of us, rather than liberating.

[nctnico]

Spiraling debt is an integral part of our current economic system, and we are currently witnessing how it ends up like.

The requirement for continued growth is based on the fact that the current system requires there is always more debt than money in circulation.  To pay for the debt, growth is absolutely required, or the system fails.

When one truly understands how the current worldwide financial system constructs fiat money based on debt owed to private central banks, one tends to not want to live on this planet anymore.
It really is only a step forward from slavery; peonage or debt bondage, to be specific. 

Do you have a better alternative that provides an amount of money that matches the size of the economy and allows to have enough control to keep inflation at around 2%?

My working theory is that money is nothing more than a representation of an amount of work. With more people around the world working to create better lives for themselves, I don't see how this system can fail in the next 500 years. And central banks do have ways to make the amount of money in circulation to become less or more.

[NiHaoMike]

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/ghosttoken-gcp-flaw-let-attackers-backdoor-google-accounts/

[Nominal Animal]

Spiraling debt is an integral part of our current economic system, and we are currently witnessing how it ends up like.

The requirement for continued growth is based on the fact that the current system requires there is always more debt than money in circulation.  To pay for the debt, growth is absolutely required, or the system fails.

When one truly understands how the current worldwide financial system constructs fiat money based on debt owed to private central banks, one tends to not want to live on this planet anymore.
It really is only a step forward from slavery; peonage or debt bondage, to be specific. 

Do you have a better alternative that provides an amount of money that matches the size of the economy and allows to have enough control to keep inflation at around 2%?

My working theory is that money is nothing more than a representation of an amount of work.

We need competition, market, and currency as an exchange medium.  What we do not need is to tie the currency to debt, like it is now.  To change this, we would first have to assassinate a few thousand people (all major owners and executives of central banks).  Looking at the past, tying the currency to major resources –– not just gold or raw materials (which used to be the bottleneck for production), but also to energy and human work –– seems like a much more stable and equitable option.

In the last fifty years or so, trying to move from debt-based fiat currency to something else, has sparked quite a few wars, though.

With more people around the world working to create better lives for themselves, I don't see how this system can fail in the next 500 years.

It is competition and market that is doing that, not currency tied to debt.  I'm pretty sure we can agree that market competition is pretty much essential.

And central banks do have ways to make the amount of money in circulation to become less or more.

No.  They cannot reduce the amount of money in circulation at all.  They can only make more money out of nothing, and create more debt by lending money to governments.  Governments can reduce the amount of money in circulation in the future by borrowing less, but central banks oppose that because it means they profit less from the interest.

[Marco]

Central banks and bankers make peanuts. They just take some skim, whenever they make a profit most of it goes back to government.

The real money is in the insider knowledge of where the interest rate targets are going to move.

[Nominal Animal]

The real money is in the insider knowledge of where the interest rate targets are going to move.

In market manipulation, yes.  If your currency is tied to anything other than debt or (other) promises, manipulation becomes much, much harder.

Exactly who makes the most of the profits off such manipulation, I do not know.  (I do not want to know; that sort of knowledge just makes one bitter.)

[JPortici]

Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.

Baloney!
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/cheap-and-generally-cheerful-three-decades-of-australias-cheapest-car Cheap cars have more capability/safety/features/functions than ever and still remain cheap.

You can argue with me, but you can't argue with the facts!


According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the median individual income in 1976 was $6,617 which is $32,572 in 2023 dollars, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator.

Consumers paid an average price of $5,450 ($29,586 in 2023 dollars) for a new car in 1976, according to National Automobile Dealers Association numbers.

So, in 1976 Joe Average could buy  $32,572 / $29,586  =   1.1 average new cars per year for his Joe Average wage.

In the year 2022, the median individual income was $46,001 and the average price of a new car at the end of 2022 was $49,388!   

So in 2022, Joe Average can now only afford 0.93 new average cars per year on his Joe Average salary.

That's almost a 20% increase in price, on average, compared to median salary.   The only reason Joe Average can afford these increases is...   increased debt, paid off over longer time.   Cars as a service, essentially!

Stupid people choose to spend more of their money on more expensive cars? That is choice, cars in general have not become more expensive but people are choosing more expensive cars. And getting worked up over some 10-20% shift? overreaction:

Cars are getting incredibly expensive, far beyond what the median income can afford.

Even with your figures, that doesn't ring true.

What? fiat panda has gone from about 9000 euros in 2018 to more than 13000 today. It's the same, basic, simple, cheap car, but they had to add a whole bunch of electronics (ADAS) in order to comply with regulations. Other more powerful cars are becoming more expensive as well because in order to meet emission standards the passive and active elements are an added cost

[coppice]

What? fiat panda has gone from about 9000 euros in 2018 to more than 13000 today. It's the same, basic, simple, cheap car, but they had to add a whole bunch of electronics (ADAS) in order to comply with regulations. Other more powerful cars are becoming more expensive as well because in order to meet emission standards the passive and active elements are an added cost

ADAS should only add something like 1000 Euros, since on most small cars it was previously only something like 1000-1500 as an option. So, a 4000 Euro rise is a bit much. Some other small cars have just abandoned being inexpensive completely. A Honda Jazz is way more expensive than in 2018. It now has ADAS, a hybrid drive train and other sophistication. However, a car that started at about 13000 pounds in 2018 now starts at 25900 pounds.

[nctnico]

And central banks do have ways to make the amount of money in circulation to become less or more.

No.  They cannot reduce the amount of money in circulation at all. 

They can. By increasing the interest rates, they can absorb money from the market.

[coppice]

No.  They cannot reduce the amount of money in circulation at all.  They can only make more money out of nothing, and create more debt by lending money to governments.  Governments can reduce the amount of money in circulation in the future by borrowing less, but central banks oppose that because it means they profit less from the interest.

Most money is created by the act of lending. This is basic to fractional reserve banking. If expiring loans are not replaced by new ones, the money in circulation shrinks.

[Marco]

But while you can have real GDP drop during inflation, it rarely increases during deflation.

Outside of Japan any way, but even then the deflationists wanted them to deflate harder. Never listen to Austrian economists, Austrians start world wars. Better to have a lost decade than one year of their creative destruction.